John Tavares Discussion

[saffronleaf]

Really sucks that he’s fallen off so far when he has peers like Panarin and Kadri still killing it and not being liabilities and anchors.

his peers keep getting better.

since the kadri trade jt and kadri have had divergent trajectories

 

[glue]

The media sure loves shitting on Willy (I get that he certainly deserves criticism), but JT has looked like an avg. 3rd line player for much of the 2nd half, save a couple games here or there.

It’s so depressing being a leafs fan. We are toast in round 1 once again this year.

If Keefe continues to shove the JT-Nylander duo together, he is a moron. At this point he has to split Marner-Matthews. He needs to switch Nylander and Marner, that’s the only way we have a chance with other top teams with 2 solid lines even if not 1 utterly dominant.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

11 million dollar checking line center at this point. An albatross of a contract.

 

[Dreakmur]

11 million dollar checking line center at this point. An albatross of a contract.

Not just a bad contract but an unnecessary signing that cut short the building process, but also a contract that then forced us to move Kadri for spare parts, pay a high price to move Marleau, and lose valuable depth players.

 

[ToneDog]

Yup JT has sucked but I doubt he has ever had to play with two softer linemates. Exactly who is supposed to dig the pucks out of the corners on that line ?? Keefe has no answer to get JT out of this funk other than Marner and for some reason they refuse to swap right wingers. So why not swap LWers for a games or two since these game mean nothing in the big picture.

Message to the 3 geniuses. You are not beating Tampa, Florida, Boston or Carolina with one line and shaky goaltending.

 

[JL17]

Let’s not forget Kerfoot and Nylander had a pretty good first round against Montreal without JT on a line.

 

[hamzarocks]

Really sucks that he’s fallen off so far when he has peers like Panarin and Kadri still killing it and not being liabilities and anchors.

Neither of those guys I'd call his peers

Panarin is a matthews/marner level player just at wing and being a better set-up man than goal scorer

Kadri is having an insane year but he's a 55 pt 2C or 65 pt LW on a good team. He's having a career year

JT is producing alright compared to his comps in Kuznetsov, Giroux, Backstrom, Seguin, Stamkos

Problem is he's slowing down quite being one of the younger players from that group and he makes 2M too much

JT at 9M would be fine with him not getting as much hate for his slow decline into his 30s

 

[Twowingcantfly]

I said from day one this was a bad signing. WE had one of the most high octane, skilled teams. It was easy to round out with solid 2 way players with grit. A #1 D man is what we needed at the time and it still is now. There was no pressure for management to make such a hasty decision, as we were a year or 2 away from our Stanley Cup dream. JT has always been a good player, just not the right fit for this team.

 

[Stephen]

When evaluating Tavares, I find there's two buckets. The stats line, which never really looks too bad, and the actual video footage shift to shift.

When I look at the stats line, I think about the Buffalo game or last night where he sets up a goal has the assist but otherwise doesn't have much force to his game. How often do you see him getting into the next gear like vs Washington after Wilson trashed him, where he's leading the rush with force, ripping shots and setting up his linemates?

On the offensive side, how often is he the one emphatically carrying the puck, creating something out of nothing? Just seems like he needs to be carried by Marner and that's the only formula that will work offensively. Otherwise just put him in a Danault role and let him burn up the clock in match ups. I can live with a deflated stats line if it actually looked like he was thriving in 5 on 5 play in some way.

 

[Dreakmur]

When evaluating Tavares, I find there's two buckets. The stats line, which never really looks too bad, and the actual video footage shift to shift.

When I look at the stats line, I think about the Buffalo game or last night where he sets up a goal has the assist but otherwise doesn't have much force to his game. How often do you see him getting into the next gear like vs Washington after Wilson trashed him, where he's leading the rush with force, ripping shots and setting up his linemates?

On the offensive side, how often is he the one emphatically carrying the puck, creating something out of nothing? Just seems like he needs to be carried by Marner and that's the only formula that will work offensively. Otherwise just put him in a Danault role and let him burn up the clock in match ups. I can live with a deflated stats line if it actually looked like he was thriving in 5 on 5 play in some way.

There are multiple ways to create offence and Tavares does it in a structured and tactical way. That requires certain kinds of teamwork and a certain style of creating chances. He doesn’t have either of those in Toronto.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

There are multiple ways to create offence and Tavares does it in a structured and tactical way. That requires certain kinds of teamwork and a certain style of creating chances. He doesn’t have either of those in Toronto.

Wash rinse repeat, Wash rinse repeat of the Islander Days. The only place JT had No excuses was winning gold for team Canada and all those super stars...

 

[saffronleaf]

When evaluating Tavares, I find there's two buckets. The stats line, which never really looks too bad, and the actual video footage shift to shift.

When I look at the stats line, I think about the Buffalo game or last night where he sets up a goal has the assist but otherwise doesn't have much force to his game. How often do you see him getting into the next gear like vs Washington after Wilson trashed him, where he's leading the rush with force, ripping shots and setting up his linemates?

On the offensive side, how often is he the one emphatically carrying the puck, creating something out of nothing? Just seems like he needs to be carried by Marner and that's the only formula that will work offensively. Otherwise just put him in a Danault role and let him burn up the clock in match ups. I can live with a deflated stats line if it actually looked like he was thriving in 5 on 5 play in some way.

I'd like to see Engvall - Tavares - Mikheyev

 

[Stephen]

There are multiple ways to create offence and Tavares does it in a structured and tactical way. That requires certain kinds of teamwork and a certain style of creating chances. He doesn’t have either of those in Toronto.

I agree there are better ways the Leafs can support Tavares’ tactical play style. But he’s also an $11 million player who should be able to figure it out.

 

[HockeyVirus]

One thing though, is JT ahs NEVER looked dominate outside of little flashes. He is not a flashy player. He has always been just a guy who quietly puts up points. People expecting him to be Marner or Matthews, he was never like that.

 

[Tak7]

The point is it's largely meaningless.

For the record, Tavares is tied for the 9th most 5v5 points among centers this season.

Yes okay my bad, what I meant to say is that Tavares has been absolutely fine, there's 0 issues with his performance and production the past 35 games, and he's on his way to winning the cup

 

[Dreakmur]

I agree there are better ways the Leafs can support Tavares’ tactical play style. But he’s also an $11 million player who should be able to figure it out.

He doesn't have the skillset to play an individual game.

 

[saffronleaf]

He doesn't have the skillset to play an individual game.

nor a team game

 

[Nylander88]

I'd like to see Engvall - Tavares - Mikheyev

Absolutely this. I think it's an obvious choice at this point. Their big bodies and speed should create opportunities for JT. Tavares has always been effective at finding the quiet areas of the ice, not so much an off the rush player. Could get plenty of chances with how much Mikheyev and Engvall both like to throw pucks at the net, and do a lap around the zone if they can't shoot off the fly. Also think Knies stylistically will make a great fit for JT when he can make the jump

 

[Tak7]

One thing though, is JT ahs NEVER looked dominate outside of little flashes. He is not a flashy player. He has always been just a guy who quietly puts up points. People expecting him to be Marner or Matthews, he was never like that.

I disagree with this - in his first season here, he went large stretches of that year where he was noticeable on almost every shift.

This revisionist excuse making for him is bizarre, from a fanbase that didn't have any issues firing shots at all the captains of the past when it was often unfair to do so.

This Leafs project doesn't work if the big 4 aren't noticeable and dominating every single night in the playoffs. Tavares (and Nylander) playing at this level come May, means another quick spring.

 

[paulhiggins]

We'll get a better deal trading him in the offseason after his signing bonus is paid. Then his salary will be:

910,000 salary x 3 years + 7, 040,000 bonus x 2 years = 2, 730,000 + 14,080,000 = 16,810,000 over 3 years = 5,603,333 per year average which isn't too bad. I think he can be talked into waiving if he's told that he's no longer part of the plan. If he is stubborn, you take away the C and move him to the 3rd line + power play. We'll still need to find a 2nd line C though. Maybe one of our prospects or acquire a 2nd line C by trading Nylander too.

 

[HockeyVirus]

I disagree with this - in his first season here, he went large stretches of that year where he was noticeable on almost every shift.

This revisionist excuse making for him is bizarre, from a fanbase that didn't have any issues firing shots at all the captains of the past when it was often unfair to do so.

This Leafs project doesn't work if the big 4 aren't noticeable and dominating every single night in the playoffs. Tavares (and Nylander) playing at this level come May, means another quick spring.

Whatever you say. One of the things Islanders fans said was they couldn't wait for him to go on his long cold streaks he was prone for with TO media. Well, this is that time. He's basically PPG but being treated like he's a bum. I get it, 11AAV does that, but this is who he always was. Blame Dubas.

 

[ToneDog]

Kyle has bet everything on this core and Shanny says we will win with this core. No need to worry folks.

 

[LeafGrief]

JT is in a complicated spot right now. At this point, I'm as well aware as anyone about how it's just not working out and he's clearly not the player he once was. The struggles are real and prolonged, and that's very disappointing to see from a guy that we've committed 11m to.

But there's two major flaws that I see in the thinking of people when we're talking about JT.

The first is this notion that a team has to be as close to perfect as possible in the salary cap to see success. Guys, for the love of the hockey gods, banish this thought and it will make you so much happier. Obviously cap space is a critical resource that must be maximized. But if the f***ing Habs can go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals, and the Islanders + Canes can make yearly deep runs, I don't want to hear crying about every waylaid 2m crushing this team's dreams. It sure does stink that JT isn't playing like an 11m player any more, but that is not what has kept this team stuck in the 1st round. We didn't lose to Montreal and Columbus because they used their cap space better than us. The Bolts just won two Stanley Cups paying Tyler Johnston 5m for 7 playoff points a year. You want to have a great salary cap situation in today's NHL, but perfect is not a requirement. JT is overpaid. JT will not kill us.

The second is getting lost in comparing the player JT was to the player JT is. He's not an elite #1C any more and it's not likely he's going to suddenly find new speed at 30. But JT is still a defensively responsible PPG centre. JT the superstar is a dream and would make the Leafs unstoppable with Matthews, yes. But JT the actual hockey player today still gives us an elite one-two punch down the middle. JT the declining hockey player is still an extremely useful hockey player who we want as the 2c of the Maple Leafs. Y'all are talking about dumping him because he should be an 8m player, but there's no replacement coming and the futures cost of a replacement in a trade is worth far more than the 3m in cap. As for signing a UFA... I'm sure that would be a great cap move.

JT on the decline is still a damn good hockey player. The further he declines the less relevant this post will be, but I want to encourage people to walk back from the ledge a bit. Y'all are writing about how we're stuck with a PPG two way C as if that is actually a bad thing for our favourite hockey team. The cap is real and the decline is real, but all of this cap bullshit is about putting the best hockey team possible on the ice and JT is still a huge part of that. I agree that he's not getting traded any time soon, but the people who are looking to paint him as the scapegoat are not helping anyone. He'll deserve his share of the blame and the cap hit will be a part of it, but don't get overzealous.

I get it. He's at the top of my trade list too, but it's also something that I really think people shouldn't sweat nearly as much.

(Comment copy/pasted from Nylander thread)

 

[Tak7]

Whatever you say. One of the things Islanders fans said was they couldn't wait for him to go on his long cold streaks he was prone for with TO media. Well, this is that time. He's basically PPG but being treated like he's a bum. I get it, 11AAV does that, but this is who he always was. Blame Dubas.

He's been coddled by the media - no one ever asks difficult questions about him, which is unusual in this market where captains routinely get hammered (often unfairly).

He's also far from productive at 5v5 for quite a while now. In the playoffs, when PP opportunities tend not to be as frequent, I don't have any faith in this version of Tavares breaking through & having an impact.

 

[ToneDog]

He's been coddled by the media - no one ever asks difficult questions about him, which is unusual in this market where captains routinely get hammered (often unfairly).

He's also far from productive at 5v5 for quite a while now. In the playoffs, when PP opportunities tend not to be as frequent, I don't have any faith in this version of Tavares breaking through & having an impact.

You clearly need to have a sitdown session with posters that will set you straight. LOL