John Tavares Discussion

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You don't have to insist, if they crash and burn in the playoffs and moving JT is an option they want to explore, he can be quietly asked if he is open to a move. If he says no, you respect the decision and move on to other ways to move forward.

I don't think just asking him will sour the relationship.
How do you quietly ask someone to move their family from their home and hometown having signed a contract (and rejected other offers) that included a necessary condition (ie NMC) for signing?

Asking will sour the relationship. The effect will be: it's soured to the point he returns and agrees or he stays knowing management wants him to move. It would most certainly affect the relationship with management and to whatever degree he can keep a lid on that constant reminder, would likely affect relationships in the room.

Don't know if Tavares is a morose type. Certainly seems stoic, but seems isn't a great compass to conclude by...

Crashing and burning in the playoffs...If it's Florida or Tampa, and the team has obviously tried but lost to a better team, is that a crash or burn?
 
he's actually at 14pts.

tied with O'Reilly, Stamkos, ahead of Aho, Bergeron, Hintz, Petersson, Malkin, Kuznetsov, Barzal, Kopitar, Giroux, etc.
now tell me how many of those guys make more than him?
 
now tell me how many of those guys make more than him?

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How do you quietly ask someone to move their family from their home and hometown having signed a contract (and rejected other offers) that included a necessary condition (ie NMC) for signing?

Asking will sour the relationship. The effect will be: it's soured to the point he returns and agrees or he stays knowing management wants him to move. It would most certainly affect the relationship with management and to whatever degree he can keep a lid on that constant reminder, would likely affect relationships in the room.

Don't know if Tavares is a morose type. Certainly seems stoic, but seems isn't a great compass to conclude by...

Crashing and burning in the playoffs...If it's Florida or Tampa, and the team has obviously tried but lost to a better team, is that a crash or burn?

No losing a hard fought series to a better team isn't crashing and burning but I wasn't talking about that scenario. If they get swept, then that is crashing and burning. And if they to fail in that fashion, I don't think anyone can fault the Leafs for wanting to make drastic changes, including JT himself.

How do you quietly ask? Just ask in his exit interview, "Are you open to a move?". If he shuts it down there, you don't bring it up again.

I don't agree that just asking would have that large an impact that you describe. Professionals can move past being asked a question IMO.
 
Ah yes because measuring the total impact of a player vs the resources it costs is moving from Al posts.
hey you lied about his 5v5 production and what that level of production says about him. no biggie.

You're the same guy who thought our 2013 team was good lmfao.

yeah, I did say those Leafs teams would be decent bubble teams if they could just get decent goaltending (unliek the league worst goaltending the received for the decade surrounding that season), and lo and behold the year they got decent goaltending from Reimer, they made the playoffs, and the the cup finalists (and previous cup champs) needed a miracle comeback to squeak by them in the playoffs. amazing.
 
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How do you quietly ask someone to move their family from their home and hometown having signed a contract (and rejected other offers) that included a necessary condition (ie NMC) for signing?

Asking will sour the relationship. The effect will be: it's soured to the point he returns and agrees or he stays knowing management wants him to move. It would most certainly affect the relationship with management and to whatever degree he can keep a lid on that constant reminder, would likely affect relationships in the room.

Don't know if Tavares is a morose type. Certainly seems stoic, but seems isn't a great compass to conclude by...

Crashing and burning in the playoffs...If it's Florida or Tampa, and the team has obviously tried but lost to a better team, is that a crash or burn?
Tavares was brought in to help get the team to the next level , if we get knocked out early again he should know the team would ask him to waive if he has any common sense since it's the most logical path to take and if that upsets him then too bad for him .
 
Tavares was brought in to help get the team to the next level , if we get knocked out early again he should know the team would ask him to waive if he has any common sense since it's the most logical path to take and if that upsets him then too bad for him .
Too bad for him when he holds all the contractual leverage?

And wasn't Tavares brought in to help get the team to the next level...when the team and he understood that that next level was predicated on the then modeled cap rising? Pre-Covid?

I'm frustrated at the prospect of facing a Florida team in the first round. I'm frustrated about our record and most frustrated about having lost to Montreal the way we did. But all of that pales in comparison to preferring away all the factors that (should) lead someone to reasonably conclude that while we are expected to compete, we aren't expected to impose our will against teams that are objectively better (on paper and in championships) than we are.

If we're knocked out by Tampa (in particular), what's the "common sense" "most logical path to take" with Tavares as being solely responsible for Toronto's fate?
 
Too bad for him when he holds all the contractual leverage?

And wasn't Tavares brought in to help get the team to the next level...when the team and he understood that that next level was predicated on the then modeled cap rising? Pre-Covid?

I'm frustrated at the prospect of facing a Florida team in the first round. I'm frustrated about our record and most frustrated about having lost to Montreal the way we did. But all of that pales in comparison to preferring away all the factors that (should) lead someone to reasonably conclude that while we are expected to compete, we aren't expected to impose our will against teams that are objectively better (on paper and in championships) than we are.

If we're knocked out by Tampa (in particular), what's the "common sense" "most logical path to take" with Tavares as being solely responsible for Toronto's fate?
spin all the excuses you want , the facts are we lost to two inferior teams the last two playoffs so making pre-emptive excuses should we be knocked out by in the first rd by a quality team doesn't give anyone a free pass including the his lord almighty Kyle Dubas

i didn't say Tavares would be the sole reason if we lost , i said moving him since he's much older (and regressing) than the other core forwards would be the much most logical path
 
Too bad for him when he holds all the contractual leverage?

And wasn't Tavares brought in to help get the team to the next level...when the team and he understood that that next level was predicated on the then modeled cap rising? Pre-Covid?

I'm frustrated at the prospect of facing a Florida team in the first round. I'm frustrated about our record and most frustrated about having lost to Montreal the way we did. But all of that pales in comparison to preferring away all the factors that (should) lead someone to reasonably conclude that while we are expected to compete, we aren't expected to impose our will against teams that are objectively better (on paper and in championships) than we are.

If we're knocked out by Tampa (in particular), what's the "common sense" "most logical path to take" with Tavares as being solely responsible for Toronto's fate?

Yeah, he holds leverage but would you want to stay at an organization that doesn't want you around? (in the hypothetical that the Leafs asked him to waive).

He isn't the game changing talent he's being paid/expected to be. He's a good center but not 11 million dollars good. If he was paid 7-8 million, I wouldn't have complaints.
 
How do you quietly ask someone to move their family from their home and hometown having signed a contract (and rejected other offers) that included a necessary condition (ie NMC) for signing?

Asking will sour the relationship. The effect will be: it's soured to the point he returns and agrees or he stays knowing management wants him to move. It would most certainly affect the relationship with management and to whatever degree he can keep a lid on that constant reminder, would likely affect relationships in the room.

Don't know if Tavares is a morose type. Certainly seems stoic, but seems isn't a great compass to conclude by...

Crashing and burning in the playoffs...If it's Florida or Tampa, and the team has obviously tried but lost to a better team, is that a crash or burn?

Nah, they need to win at least a round or two this year and show progression. I'm getting tired of people already justifying getting knocked out in the first round again just because Florida/Tampa or even Boston are good/better teams. The time for excuse making has passed for this management group and core. People need to stop cutting them breaks.
 
Wonder what Matthews and Marner would think of the Leafs moving their NMC ,PPG, prize UFA Captain who allegedly took a discount fulfill a childhood dream to be Leaf, as they are making their UFA decisions in a couple of years?
 
Nah, they need to win at least a round or two this year and show progression. I'm getting tired of people already justifying getting knocked out in the first round again just because Florida/Tampa or even Boston are good/better teams. The time for excuse making has passed for this management group and core. People need to stop cutting them breaks.
This all day.
Never seen a fan base accept losing so easily. It's like they've already convinced themselves of it and are already attempting to be at peace with it.
So weird.
 
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This all day.
Never seen a fan base accept losing so easily. It's like they've already convinced themselves of it and are already attempting to be at peace with it.
So weird.

It's interesting because there were no consequences anyway when we lost to two bad teams in Columbus and Montreal. We couldn't judge them then and of course we can't judge them this year because the Atlantic is stacked. When does anyone take responsibility at this point for repeated failure?
 
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My bad, think I was using 2nd week of January, not Jan 1st.

But from Jan 1st: 99th best 5v5 production.....
Actually, it's tied for 96th with a lot of other good players, and his ranking in one specific game state over a small sample after coming back from Covid and going through a cold streak doesn't really say much anyway.

Fun fact: Through that timeframe, Bunting's 5v5 point lead over McDavid is twice as big as McDavid's 5v5 point lead over Tavares.
 
Nah, they need to win at least a round or two this year and show progression. I'm getting tired of people already justifying getting knocked out in the first round again just because Florida/Tampa or even Boston are good/better teams. The time for excuse making has passed for this management group and core. People need to stop cutting them breaks.
Curious for your sense of teams that have lost to past dynasties and dynastic-like teams: Do you characterize losses to the Bowman Canadiens or Red Wings, Lemaire's Devils or Cooper's Lightning as losses without reason?
 
Yeah, he holds leverage but would you want to stay at an organization that doesn't want you around? (in the hypothetical that the Leafs asked him to waive).

He isn't the game changing talent he's being paid/expected to be. He's a good center but not 11 million dollars good. If he was paid 7-8 million, I wouldn't have complaints.
Oh I know what kind of player he is. I may have a comment or two that's lurking before he was signed citing Cherry's alpha dog observation as a legitimate concern to the makeup of the club and Matthews' development.

As for staying in an organization that doesn't want you around: Are you referring to management or the players?
 
Curious for your sense of teams that have lost to past dynasties and dynastic-like teams: Do you characterize losses to the Bowman Canadiens or Red Wings, Lemaire's Devils or Cooper's Lightning as losses without reason?

We literally lost to Columbus and Montreal the past two seasons. Which one was a dynasty?

Florida is not a dynasty. They haven't gotten past the first round for eons as well. Tampa is a great team, aren't we supposed to be contenders too though? You're already accepting defeat and rationalizing it.
 
Tavares was brought in to help get the team to the next level , if we get knocked out early again he should know the team would ask him to waive if he has any common sense since it's the most logical path to take and if that upsets him then too bad for him .
Common sense is a myth, and the team wouldn΄t ask him because they know he'd say get lost.
 
spin all the excuses you want , the facts are we lost to two inferior teams the last two playoffs so making pre-emptive excuses should we be knocked out by in the first rd by a quality team doesn't give anyone a free pass including the his lord almighty Kyle Dubas

i didn't say Tavares would be the sole reason if we lost , i said moving him since he's much older (and regressing) than the other core forwards would be the much most logical path
So you believe the two-time, in their prime, Tampa Bay Lightning is an example of a skewed characterization of what Toronto faces, and in the face of said possibility, represents an unacceptable outcome should they lose?

And the same goes for every team the past two seasons?

And I agree to a point. We lost to one inferior team, but so did others. We lost in a generational fashion. The previous losses, not so sure you can spin it that way and not come to some of sort moment of realization that Washington and Boston aren't the sort of teams that fledgling clubs like ours cut their teeth on.

See that's spin. When Ovechkin and Bergeron led clubs with true number one defencemen and starting goalies are just waved on by as casual annoyances vs what they really were and to a degree remain.

Yzerman was drafted in '84. Wings won their first Cup in his era a decade and a bit later. Ovechkin was drafted in 2004...It's almost like it takes time and stuff to forge championship teams.
 
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Wonder what Matthews and Marner would think of the Leafs moving their NMC ,PPG, prize UFA Captain who allegedly took a discount fulfill a childhood dream to be Leaf, as they are making their UFA decisions in a couple of years?
Matthews and Marner want to win. They're also not stupid. JT making 11 million is a massive obstacle to this teams success right now. I don't care if he's almost a point per game, that number is deceiving. Night in and night out he contributes very little to the teams success. We could add a high quality winger if JT was making what he actually is worth.
But I don't know what it will take to change up the first and second lines. Thought Keefe was fairly flexible when he got here, I don't get how he watches that horrible second line every night.
 
We literally lost to Columbus and Montreal the past two seasons. Which one was a dynasty?

Florida is not a dynasty. They haven't gotten past the first round for eons as well. Tampa is a great team, aren't we supposed to be contenders too though? You're already accepting defeat and rationalizing it.
Cooper's Lightning is behaving like and looks like a dynasty in the making. I'm asking you to justify your expectations against Tampa and I'm asking you to characterize teams that have lost to similarly modeled teams.

I've repeated myself enough that Montreal was unacceptable...Obviously, I'm not referring to them. I'm referring, obviously, to Tampa and yes to Florida who is clearly deeper than we are. Specifically, Tampa: Is it unacceptable if Toronto loses to Tampa and...why?
 
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