John Tavares Discussion

[hotpaws]

We literally lost to Columbus and Montreal the past two seasons. Which one was a dynasty?

Florida is not a dynasty. They haven't gotten past the first round for eons as well. Tampa is a great team, aren't we supposed to be contenders too though? You're already accepting defeat and rationalizing it.

we can't expect to beat a better team is the new excuse for the Dubas faithful to save his job if we lose early again, lol

sad part is the Panthers were behind us when Dubie took over and now 4 yrs later we can't expect to beat them

 

[egd27]

Matthews and Marner want to win. They're also not stupid. JT making 11 million is a massive obstacle to this teams success right now. I don't care if he's almost a point per game, that number is deceiving. Night in and night out he contributes very little to the teams success. We could add a high quality winger if JT was making what he actually is worth.
But I don't know what it will take to change up the first and second lines. Thought Keefe was fairly flexible when he got here, I don't get how he watches that horrible second line every night.

Completely missed the point of the question.

 

[keonsbitterness]

if he told me to get lost i'd make his time here very difficult and contrary to popular opinion the world doesn't revolve around Johnny

You'd get fired the next day.

 

[hotpaws]

You'd get fired the next day.

by who exactly ? the people above me who i already informed and approved of the direction i've chosen to go ?

do you actually believe the entire organization is going down just because they don't want to hurt Johnny's feeling by asking him to waive his nmc ?

he wouldn't be the first player nor the last that was moved with an nmc so stop acting like this would be some unprecedented move to ask someone to waive

 

[IPS]

we can't expect to beat a better team is the new excuse to the Dubas faithful to save his job if we lose early again, lol

sad part is the Panthers were behind us when Dubie took over and now 4 yrs later we can't expect to beat them

Carolina is another one of those teams too. Our rebuild looked soundly ahead of theirs until it wasn't.

 

[Tak7]

Actually, it's tied for 96th with a lot of other good players, and his ranking in one specific game state over a small sample after coming back from Covid and going through a cold streak doesn't really say much anyway.

Fun fact: Through that timeframe, Bunting's 5v5 point lead over McDavid is twice as big as McDavid's 5v5 point lead over Tavares.

99th.

And that's over 33 games - which is over a third of the season.

I know people seem really uncomfortable with any sort of criticism directed at Tavares, but this "big four" plan only works if all 4 of them are playing at an elite level.

John Tavares has not been an elite player over the past 33 games, and it becomes a massive issue if they can't get more out of him at 5v5.

 

[ITM]

we can't expect to beat a better team is the new excuse for the Dubas faithful to save his job if we lose early again, lol

sad part is the Panthers were behind us when Dubie took over and now 4 yrs later we can't expect to beat them

Mmm...Spin being what it is...I'm not part of "the Dubas faithful" and the better team in question - in my question to you and one other member - is Tampa Bay. They're the present consecutive Cup winning team rostered with a prime Kucherov, Point, Vasilevsky and Hedman coached by Cooper. Off the top of my head I think there's a Hart, a Vezina, a Norris...anything else? Adams or Smythe ior Rocket in there anywhere?

So...What's the "lol", "spin", "excuse" part of a position that accounts for THAT TEAM, our potential opposition that you believe is laughable and delusional?

No one is saying we will lose, but it's reasonable to ask the question IF we lose to THAT TEAM: The question poised to the Dubas Haters Club President is: Why is it unacceptable to lose to THAT TEAM - to TAMPA?

(No points for answering questions you preferred were asked.)

 

[keonsbitterness]

by who exactly ? the people above me who i already informed and approved of the direction i've chosen to go ?

do you actually believe the entire organization is going down just because they don't want to hurt Johnny's feeling by asking him to waive his nmc ?

he wouldn't be the first player nor the last that was moved with an nmc so stop acting like this would be some unprecedented move to ask someone to waive

You wouldn't get fired for asking him to waive but for trying to "make his time here very difficult" if he said no. That's just a ridiculously stupid course of action that would never get approval from above.

 

[Dekes For Days]

99th.

And if you look a bit higher, you see that 96th has the same number of points. Thus, tied for 96th.

And that's over 33 games - which is over a third of the season.

And if we were to draw conclusions about what a player is by production in this game state in this sample, we'd conclude that McDavid was an average 1st liner. Tavares' production through his cold streak isn't that abnormal relative to a bunch of other elite centers.

this "big four" plan only works if all 4 of them are playing at an elite level.

We're 20-10-3 over that time frame, for the record.

 

[Skullz]

Mmm...Spin being what it is...I'm not part of "the Dubas faithful" and the better team in question - in my question to you and one other member - is Tampa Bay. They're the present consecutive Cup winning team rostered with a prime Kucherov, Point, Vasilevsky and Hedman coached by Cooper. Off the top of my head I think there's a Hart, a Vezina, a Norris...anything else? Adams or Smythe ior Rocket in there anywhere?

So...What's the "lol", "spin", "excuse" part of a position that accounts for THAT TEAM, our potential opposition that you believe is laughable and delusional?

No one is saying we will lose, but it's reasonable to ask the question IF we lose to THAT TEAM: The question poised to the Dubas Haters Club President is: Why is it unacceptable to lose to THAT TEAM - to TAMPA?

(No points for answering questions you preferred were asked.

The answer is that this is about much more than this series. This will be the sixth first round exit in a row if they lose to Tampa. That is unacceptable. I don't think that it will be unfair to wonder that if choosing to run it back year after year and failing is a mistake if it happens again. And as every year goes by the mistakes made regarding contracts gets louder, as we made a lot of decisions that causes us long term pain in exchange for winning early. Now we have not won, and are starting to feel the squeeze.

 

[nuck]

Cooper's Lightning is behaving like and looks like a dynasty in the making. I'm asking you to justify your expectations against Tampa and I'm asking you to characterize teams that have lost to similarly modeled teams.

I've repeated myself enough that Montreal was unacceptable...Obviously, I'm not referring to them. I'm referring, obviously, to Tampa and yes to Florida who is clearly deeper than we are. Specifically, Tampa: Is it unacceptable if Toronto loses to Tampa and...why?

That's a fair question but Tampa did lose three games to the 12th OA Isles last playoff and two each to the 11th OA Isles and the 10th OA Stars the playoff before. They met the 10th and the 12th best clubs in the league in the finals and couldn't sweep them. They are the favorite but this is hardly a mismatch if the 5th OA Leafs get goaltending.

Tampa is a very good club who are currently a point behind the Leaf's in the standings and 6 wins behind the 1st OA team so they aren't running away with anything. If the Leafs goalies didn't have a second half melt down they would likely be in 1st place in the division. If they win it isn't a miracle and if they lose, not necessarily a failure because the Bolts are that good, but its how they lose. Epic 7 game battle against a Stanley Cup finalist or never really in it?

Can't wait to find out.

 

[ITM]

The answer is that this is about much more than this series. This will be the sixth first round exit in a row if they lose to Tampa. That is unacceptable. I don't think that it will be unfair to wonder that if choosing to run it back year after year and failing is a mistake if it happens again. And as every year goes by the mistakes made regarding contracts gets louder, as we made a lot of decisions that causes us long term pain in exchange for winning early. Now we have not won, and are starting to feel the squeeze.

Oh I know there's a larger specter than just Tampa, but Tampa is a distinct exemption that the Dubas Haters Club's bias demands attention.

You can't be a fan of the club and expect them to MacGyver their way past a two-time defending champion and use it as a hammer every time someone points out the fact that they might reasonably lose again.

As far as I'm concerned, we've had one unacceptable loss: Montreal. And I say that knowing who Montreal went on to beat. That doesn't make me a Dubas Hater or a Dubas Fan. It's a separate reasonable inference that contextualizes the needs of the club from the rabid want of some of our "fans" who accuse others of being bias, when factually, it's the other way.

That experience cultivates real discomfort. It's a strange experience to read Tampa is as beatable as Montreal and be told you have to have bias in order to believe there's any other conclusion.

"Fans" of that ilk need to migrate to another board and practice their gaslighting there. Been a Leaf fan far too long to suffer that foolishness and be expected to tolerate it.

 

[hotpaws]

Mmm...Spin being what it is...I'm not part of "the Dubas faithful" and the better team in question - in my question to you and one other member - is Tampa Bay. They're the present consecutive Cup winning team rostered with a prime Kucherov, Point, Vasilevsky and Hedman coached by Cooper. Off the top of my head I think there's a Hart, a Vezina, a Norris...anything else? Adams or Smythe ior Rocket in there anywhere?

So...What's the "lol", "spin", "excuse" part of a position that accounts for THAT TEAM, our potential opposition that you believe is laughable and delusional?

No one is saying we will lose, but it's reasonable to ask the question IF we lose to THAT TEAM: The question poised to the Dubas Haters Club President is: Why is it unacceptable to lose to THAT TEAM - to TAMPA?

(No points for answering questions you preferred were asked.)

Tampa isn't the same team this year , losing Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow hurt and while there top end talent is still there they don't look like the same dominant team .

also when's the last time a team 3peated ? not only is history against them but it's not easy to keep coming back after short off seasons

since you like questions i'll ask you one , what if we lose to Tampa then they lose to either Bos/Flor proving they're not invincible , what do you say then ?

 

[hotpaws]

You wouldn't get fired for asking him to waive but for trying to "make his time here very difficult" if he said no. That's just a ridiculously stupid course of action that would never get approval from above.

since when did Rogers/Bell get become so concerned with their employees feelings ? lol

 

[Stephen]

This is the most bizarre take. Huh?

Matt Moulson, Anders Lee, Kyle Okposo and many others disagree. Tavares got them paid.

In fact, I will suggest that Tavares has actually done more to make his wingers great than Crosby.

I’m not sure it’s the most helpful take to say Tavares created those players as much as to draw the conclusion those players work better with Tavares than a player like Nylander and Kerfoot.

If we were to build Tavares a fresh line with two wingers on the premise that he can’t have Marner and Nylander is permanently off his wing, I would look at a proficient east west puck carrier like Jordan Eberle to mimic the Marner element. Carry the puck in open ice, draw defenders out of position and then make an area pass to JT slowly catching up. And I would look at a bigger frame garbage goal scorer to power winger to help create havoc in the net front. That player could be more of a skilled power forward or it could be more of a grit grind digger cycle guy. Something like a Goodrow.

 

[ITM]

Tampa isn't the same team this year , losing Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow hurt and while there top end talent is still there they don't look like the same dominant team .

also when's the last time a team 3peated ? not only is history against them but it's not easy to keep coming back after short off seasons

since you like questions i'll ask you one , what if we lose to Tampa then they lose to either Bos/Flor proving they're not invincible , what do you say then ?

You mean like losing to Montreal who went on to beat other good teams and therefore having beat Montreal means we would have beat the other teams?

It’s called the false comparison fallacy.

It’s as easy to say then that because Boston or Florida beat Tampa that our chances weren’t as bad as we thought as it is to say because Boston or Florida beat Tampa demonstrates how little chance we had against them in the first place. It’s untenable. Especially so when the standard isn’t an impossible task, but a reasonably improbable task.

I mean the conversation hinges on your caricature of expectation of a reasonably improbable task. You deform it into spun excuse and label others as biased, when you just demonstrated you’re willing to push a fallacy as a reasonable alternative to the better explanation.

Maybe we win maybe we don’t. But mentioning the possibility of losing to the Lightning isn’t an exercise in bias. It doesn’t mean people believe (or know) that the Leafs can’t win. It’s simply a placeholder in a conversation that is diligently trying to determine the best reaction to a possible, reasonable outcome.

 

[hotpaws]

You mean like losing to Montreal who went on to beat other good teams and therefore having beat Montreal means we would have beat the other teams?

It’s called the false comparison fallacy.

It’s as easy to say then that because Boston or Florida beat Tampa that our chances weren’t as bad as we thought as it is to say because Boston or Florida beat Tampa demonstrates how little chance we had against them in the first place. It’s untenable. Especially so when the standard isn’t an impossible task, but a reasonably improbable task.

I mean the conversation hinges on your caricature of expectation of a reasonably improbable task. You deform it into spun excuse and label others as biased, when you just demonstrated you’re willing to push a fallacy as a reasonable alternative to the better explanation.

Maybe we win maybe we don’t. But mentioning the possibility of losing to the Lightning isn’t an exercise in bias. It doesn’t mean people believe (or know) that the Leafs can’t win. It’s simply a placeholder in a conversation that is diligently trying to determine the best reaction to a possible, reasonable outcome.

look at that an English Lit grad , lol

i'll make it easy for you , Dubas this season and if he's lucky next season to advance this team or he'll be out the door and no amount of spinning or deflecting will save him

 

[BackPassChampions]

we can't expect to beat a better team is the new excuse for the Dubas faithful to save his job if we lose early again, lol

sad part is the Panthers were behind us when Dubie took over and now 4 yrs later we can't expect to beat them

You know, I was just thinking about some of our prospects that we no longer have.

Man do I miss Trevor Moore.

I was real sad when we traded him.

He is having a great year.

He would have been perfect on our third line.

Miss his energy and feistiness.

 

[Tak7]

And if you look a bit higher, you see that 96th has the same number of points. Thus, tied for 96th.

And if we were to draw conclusions about what a player is by production in this game state in this sample, we'd conclude that McDavid was an average 1st liner. Tavares' production through his cold streak isn't that abnormal relative to a bunch of other elite centers.

We're 20-10-3 over that time frame, for the record.

"McDavid hasn't been great either" ..... doesn't really change the point. He needs to be better.

 

[therealkoho]

Johnny Toronto ladies and gentlemen. And some of you were so easy early on to be giving up on him.

He had bad puck luck but was playing well, and now you see our Captain.

They did it to Sundin, Vaive, Sittler and Keon. Funny enough though Army was treated like a captain with 4 rings had to be treated, and Wendel was always treated with respect, an ingredient oft times in very short supply in LeaFland.

 

[therealkoho]

K now post Islanders playoff series wins and Leafs playoff series wins since the change

Like GAA, that's a team stat, otherwise Gretz would be sporting 15 or so rings.

 

[therealkoho]

Well said. At what point do we seriously consider stripping the C from him?

I can honestly say that Phaneuf was a better leader and at the very least showed some fight and pride in the sweater.

I forgot Creep wore the C here

 

[therealkoho]

I think people tend to tippy toe around Tavares when it comes to criticism, always deferring to a respectful tone about how he's a great player even when he has a monstrously bad time.

He struggles way too much for a great player, and the gap between his A game and B game frankly makes it difficult to build a coherent game plan with him in a lead role. Yes, he still gets his cookies, and he's a PPG player on paper, yada yada, but the 5 on 5 value really doesn't feel like it's really there. And I don't mean little toolsy veteran plays only the most tactically literate hockey coach can appreciate, I mean emphatic impact franchise center plays.

I don't know what his challenges are, technical, mental, health but he's just doing it.

is that kinda like the folks who tip toe around Willie

 

[therealkoho]

pretty tough assessment from Keefe to say that Tavares and his linemates got outworked. That's just not something that can happen. I think it's fair to say that Tavares gets pretty easy usage, and the performance from him has not been good enough. There are too many nights where he isn't a factor

That's coaches code for "it all starts at the top," because the Captain represents all the players.

 

[therealkoho]

He can take every draw and still play wing. The rationale is that the game looks really fast for him. Not just the lack of foot speed but he isn't reading and anticipating quick enough to compensate.

$11M for the second line centre who they couldn't afford and doesn't fit the timeline is now an albatross with 3 more years after this. Who could have guessed?

Hopefully the new GM presses him to waive this summer. New guy will have no loyalty to him and can make things uncomfortable if he doesn't play ball. Leafs need to get out of this contract.

JT is a 1 in at least 20 other NHL cities, he's only #2 here because of a guy named Auston