Blue Jays Discussion: Joe Panik traded for the reliever we need.

[dredeye]

yeah he's been ass defensively. The kid needs to let semien play SS for a bit. Him and cavan are horrible ( at d)

I don’t get why they don’t just turn bichette into the 2b. Either Semien is back or they bring in one of the big ss free agents in the off season.

 

[ER89]

I don’t get why they don’t just turn bichette into the 2b. Either Semien is back or they bring in one of the big ss free agents in the off season.

I think bo wants to play ss and management is catering to that.

 

[Morgs]

Our current kiddy core really screwed management here. This was a year we should have been able to compete on our own merits. Instead,, we goof around on defense and in the clubhouse and force the upper echelon to trade future assets in order to bail out the season.

Insane take. Not even gonna touch the clubhouse thing because... well.

As for the defense, The Jays have a fangraphs defensive rating of -15.3 which is good for 12th in the AL. Even though that's not good, the average defensive rating in the AL this season so far is -7,29. The only teams to have a defensive rating better than that (in order from best to worst) Tampa (11.9), Texas (4.6), Boston (0.9), Houston (0.4), Cleveland (0.1), Oakland (-0.2), Chicago (-4,1), and New York (-5,2). Of those teams, the ones with a offensive rating above Toronto's 36.6 are Houston and Chicago (the two clear best teams in the AL). In regards to WAR, the Jays rank 4th with 12.9, only behind Houston (19.8), Chicago (14.6), and Boston (13). They more than make up for their poor defense with arguably the 2nd best offense in the AL.

If you would even like to dig a little deeper, both Reese and Jansen have been very good behind the plate. Both would easily be top-10 if they played more innings. Vlad ranks 6th of 13 qualified 1B. Semien ranks 1st of 11. No qualified 3B. Bo ranks 11th of 13 (but is surprisingly a positive). Lourdes, Grichuk, and Teo rank 13, 15, and 16 respectively out of 24 outfielders.

It's an insane take to me you're blaming the "kiddy core" when in reality the blame should be squarely pointed at pitching. Starting for the ~first month, the bullpen ever since.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Insane take. Not even gonna touch the clubhouse thing because... well.

As for the defense, The Jays have a fangraphs defensive rating of -15.3 which is good for 12th in the AL. Even though that's not good, the average defensive rating in the AL this season so far is -7,29. The only teams to have a defensive rating better than that (in order from best to worst) Tampa (11.9), Texas (4.6), Boston (0.9), Houston (0.4), Cleveland (0.1), Oakland (-0.2), Chicago (-4,1), and New York (-5,2). Of those teams, the ones with a offensive rating above Toronto's 36.6 are Houston and Chicago (the two clear best teams in the AL). In regards to WAR, the Jays rank 4th with 12.9, only behind Houston (19.8), Chicago (14.6), and Boston (13). They more than make up for their poor defense with arguably the 2nd best offense in the AL.

If you would even like to dig a little deeper, both Reese and Jansen have been very good behind the plate. Both would easily be top-10 if they played more innings. Vlad ranks 6th of 13 qualified 1B. Semien ranks 1st of 11. No qualified 3B. Bo ranks 11th of 13 (but is surprisingly a positive). Lourdes, Grichuk, and Teo rank 13, 15, and 16 respectively out of 24 outfielders.

It's an insane take to me you're blaming the "kiddy core" when in reality the blame should be squarely pointed at pitching. Starting for the ~first month, the bullpen ever since.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the DH role give the NL teams a significant advantage compare to the AL teams in terms of defensive rating due to the DH having a steppe negative rating in terms of positional adjustment. The opposite could be the also said with regards to team WRC+ and the advantage the DH role gives to these AL teams.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Our current kiddy core really screwed management here. This was a year we should have been able to compete on our own merits. Instead,, we goof around on defense and in the clubhouse and force the upper echelon to trade future assets in order to bail out the season.

The only one who is truly below average defensively with regards to his position is Bo, Bigggio at 3rd (understandable as 3b is not really his natural position, his UZR/150 has been absolute garbage however), Kirk, Grichuk at CF (Grichuk is a natural corner fielder where he is actually a postive defender at that spot but the range required for a CF is above his skill set) and Panik at 3b. Really much of the Jays defensive woes has been at CF and 3B, which is the 2 positions the Jays doesn't have a natural defender at who could play everyday, asking a corner fielder to play CF everyday and a 2B to play 3B would definitely hurt any team's defence.

 

[Morgs]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the DH role give the NL teams a significant advantage compare to the AL teams in terms of defensive rating due to the DH having a steppe negative rating in terms of positional adjustment. The opposite could be the also said with regards to team WRC+ and the advantage the DH role gives to these AL teams.

I mean everything I said was AL for a reason

 

[Amadeus]

I don't actively follow other teams but it seems for the Jays, its been a year that has me really questioning our coaching staff.

In the beginning of the year, we lost games due to our extremely underwhelming defense. Then we lost games due to our baserunning errors. Then the bullpen collapse came. It seems coaching and preparation are a big time issue with this team.

Need to be strong fundamentally to have success. Alex Anthopolous made his fair share of mistakes but during the end of his tenure, he admitted to one thing, and that thing was that he'd never compromise on defense when building a team.

 

[BigBlu]

Insane take. Not even gonna touch the clubhouse thing because... well.

As for the defense, The Jays have a fangraphs defensive rating of -15.3 which is good for 12th in the AL. Even though that's not good, the average defensive rating in the AL this season so far is -7,29. The only teams to have a defensive rating better than that (in order from best to worst) Tampa (11.9), Texas (4.6), Boston (0.9), Houston (0.4), Cleveland (0.1), Oakland (-0.2), Chicago (-4,1), and New York (-5,2). Of those teams, the ones with a offensive rating above Toronto's 36.6 are Houston and Chicago (the two clear best teams in the AL). In regards to WAR, the Jays rank 4th with 12.9, only behind Houston (19.8), Chicago (14.6), and Boston (13). They more than make up for their poor defense with arguably the 2nd best offense in the AL.

If you would even like to dig a little deeper, both Reese and Jansen have been very good behind the plate. Both would easily be top-10 if they played more innings. Vlad ranks 6th of 13 qualified 1B. Semien ranks 1st of 11. No qualified 3B. Bo ranks 11th of 13 (but is surprisingly a positive). Lourdes, Grichuk, and Teo rank 13, 15, and 16 respectively out of 24 outfielders.

It's an insane take to me you're blaming the "kiddy core" when in reality the blame should be squarely pointed at pitching. Starting for the ~first month, the bullpen ever since.

Well then, I’ll call a truce.
I will rely on the kids to hold the fort on both sides of the ball, and you will rely on our pitching staff - after all the injuries - and just wait for organizational depth.
The kids are all right! It’s their team now! Congratulations!

And so,, if you trade any of SWR, Groshans, Kirk, or Robberse, you can’t blame it on the bullpen. That would be a big mistake, and will not help us in the future.

That type of a move is a failure of our kiddy core and a management team locked into a narrative that didn’t happen this year.

 

[dredeye]

I think bo wants to play ss and management is catering to that.

No need to cater to him. If he’s not good at his position you move him to where he can be successful

 

[djdev]

Well then, I’ll call a truce.
I will rely on the kids to hold the fort on both sides of the ball, and you will rely on our pitching staff - after all the injuries - and just wait for organizational depth.
The kids are all right! It’s their team now! Congratulations!

And so,, if you trade any of SWR, Groshans, Kirk, or Robberse, you can’t blame it on the bullpen. That would be a big mistake, and will not help us in the future.

That type of a move is a failure of our kiddy core and a management team locked into a narrative that didn’t happen this year.

wth are u even talking about? lol

 

[metafour]

New Fangraphs mock draft:

Mock Draft 2.0

19. Toronto Blue Jays
Pick: Jay Allen, CF, John Carroll Catholic HS (FL)

Sources told us Allen was in for a private workout and he starts getting mentioned consistently in this range of the first round.

 

[Kurtz]

Young players tend to suck on defense, but then rapidly improve. Vladdy was the worst 1B defender in the Majors last year - and now he's well above average at that position. I think Bo can make a similar jump and be above-average at SS in a year or two. He's got the tools.

 

[Morgs]

Young players tend to suck on defense, but then rapidly improve. Vladdy was the worst 1B defender in the Majors last year - and now he's well above average at that position. I think Bo can make a similar jump and be above-average at SS in a year or two. He's got the tools.

Agreed. It's almost exclusively his arm accuracy that's the issue too. If it was range, arm power, or even footwork it may be smart to move him to 2nd, but I accuracy is arguably the easiest thing to work on. Just needs to find a way that worked for him like how Tulo jumped every time he threw.

 

[MS]

Agreed. It's almost exclusively his arm accuracy that's the issue too. If it was range, arm power, or even footwork it may be smart to move him to 2nd, but I accuracy is arguably the easiest thing to work on. Just needs to find a way that worked for him like how Tulo jumped every time he threw.

Also Bichette has been worth 1.6 defensive bWAR in his first 157 MLB games, so as frustrating as the occasional bad throw or silly mistake might be, in the bigger picture he's obviously getting to enough balls to make up for it.

 

[djdev]

i just want bo to be put in the best position to have success and confidence, im not sure SS is that position. i would ideally like him to try second base, and bring in story(avg to good defender) or correa(my dream lol) to replace semien in the offseason. its not a change thats probably wise to do in season, but if his struggles continue i think the jays really need to think about it for next season

 

[Canada4Gold]

Agreed. It's almost exclusively his arm accuracy that's the issue too. If it was range, arm power, or even footwork it may be smart to move him to 2nd, but I accuracy is arguably the easiest thing to work on. Just needs to find a way that worked for him like how Tulo jumped every time he threw.

To me if seems like the biggest issue is the decision making. Most of his bad throws come on the run and a bunch of those he either shouldn't throw at all because he's not going to get the runner, or he has time to set his feet and get the runner anyway. Hopefully he can figure out how to react instinctively based on the knowledge of who's running. Right now it seems like he just assumes he always has a chance but has to get it to 1st as quickly as he can.

That also doesn't seem like something that would change with a move to 3rd or 2nd. He might get less balls hit to him or have less distance to cover with the throw so perhaps it helps, but I'd rather solve the root of the issue.

 

[Canada4Gold]

What was the point of reducing the minor leagues if teams could have 2 teams in the same league anyway. Today in the Florida Complex League the Detroit Tigers West played the Detroit Tigers East.

The Tigers won.

edit: Meanwhile the FCL started 9 days ago, the FCL Jays have played 4 games and games for the next 2 days are already rained out. Yay for rain. 4 games in 11 days to start the season.

 

[Puckstuff]

i just want bo to be put in the best position to have success and confidence, im not sure SS is that position. i would ideally like him to try second base, and bring in story(avg to good defender) or correa(my dream lol) to replace semien in the offseason. its not a change thats probably wise to do in season, but if his struggles continue i think the jays really need to think about it for next season

Correa is the best one but I think a Semien re-sign makes more sense then a 200+ m deal for Correa. A 3 year, 80 million dollar deal for Semien would line up really well with the Jays so when the young guys start getting paid big dollars we have him off the books. I'd also like Jose Ramirez at 3B. I'd do Groshans+ for Ramirez.

LF - Biggio/Gurriel - CF - Springer - RF - Hernandez
3B - Ramirez - SS - Bichette - 2B - Semien - 1B - Gurrerro Jr
C - Kirk/Moreno/McGuire


1. CF - Springer
2. SS - Bichette
3. 1B - Gurrerro Jr.
4. 3B - Ramirez
5. RF - Hernandez
6. 2B - Semien
7. DH - Kirk (dh)
8. C - Moreno
9. LF - Biggio/Gurriel

McGuire
Espinal
Tellez

 

[Canada4Gold]

Correa is the best one but I think a Semien re-sign makes more sense then a 200+ m deal for Correa. A 3 year, 80 million dollar deal for Semien would line up really well with the Jays so when the young guys start getting paid big dollars we have him off the books. I'd also like Jose Ramirez at 3B. I'd do Groshans+ for Ramirez.

LF - Biggio/Gurriel - CF - Springer - RF - Hernandez
3B - Ramirez - SS - Bichette - 2B - Semien - 1B - Gurrerro Jr
C - Kirk/Moreno/McGuire


1. CF - Springer
2. SS - Bichette
3. 1B - Gurrerro Jr.
4. 3B - Ramirez
5. RF - Hernandez
6. 2B - Semien
7. DH - Kirk
8. C - Moreno
9. LF - Biggio/Gurriel

That's an interesting deal. My first instinct was Semien's going to want more than 3 years, but then I realized that's almost 27 million a year so perhaps he bites. I was thinking more in that 110/5 range

edit: Groshans also feels like not the main piece for Ramirez. Any plus would have to be at least equal to Groshans IMO. Groshans+Van Eyk+De Castro for example is a easy yes from us and I doubt the Indians consider it

 

[djdev]

Correa is the best one but I think a Semien re-sign makes more sense then a 200+ m deal for Correa. A 3 year, 80 million dollar deal for Semien would line up really well with the Jays so when the young guys start getting paid big dollars we have him off the books. I'd also like Jose Ramirez at 3B. I'd do Groshans+ for Ramirez.

LF - Biggio/Gurriel - CF - Springer - RF - Hernandez
3B - Ramirez - SS - Bichette - 2B - Semien - 1B - Gurrerro Jr
C - Kirk/Moreno/McGuire


1. CF - Springer
2. SS - Bichette
3. 1B - Gurrerro Jr.
4. 3B - Ramirez
5. RF - Hernandez
6. 2B - Semien
7. DH - Kirk
8. C - Moreno
9. LF - Biggio/Gurriel

having a stud at 3rd base would help bo too if bo stays at ss imo, like machado next to tatis in SD. theres definitely different options that could work. but as it stands now, barring some big improvement from bo on his throwing accuracy the left side of the infield is scary to me in any big games.

 

[Discoverer]

having a stud at 3rd base would help bo too if bo stays at ss imo, like machado next to tatis in SD. theres definitely different options that could work. but as it stands now, barring some big improvement from bo on his throwing accuracy the left side of the infield is scary to me in any big games.

The idea of a great defender at 3B to help out a below average SS is definitely intriguing, but I'm not sure the Tatis example works so well since he's been among the worst defensive SS in the game since he came into the league (and waaaaay worse than Bo, who grades out as approximately average).

I think Kurtz is exactly right - let him stick with it and work on it because he has all the tools and this development path is pretty common among young, athletic SS. It's more frustrating now that they're competitive than it was a couple years ago when they sucked anyway, but it'll be worthwhile in the long run.

 

[djdev]

The idea of a great defender at 3B to help out a below average SS is definitely intriguing, but I'm not sure the Tatis example works so well since he's been among the worst defensive SS in the game since he came into the league (and waaaaay worse than Bo, who grades out as approximately average).

I think Kurtz is exactly right - let him stick with it and work on it because he has all the tools and this development path is pretty common among young, athletic SS. It's more frustrating now that they're competitive than it was a couple years ago when they sucked anyway, but it'll be worthwhile in the long run.

ye im not giving up on him yet at all. hes a stud young player, just want some sort of plan in case he doesnt improve. sometimes players get better..sometimes no matter how hard they work, inexplicably they dont.

 

[dredeye]

Well then, I’ll call a truce.
I will rely on the kids to hold the fort on both sides of the ball, and you will rely on our pitching staff - after all the injuries - and just wait for organizational depth.
The kids are all right! It’s their team now! Congratulations!

And so,, if you trade any of SWR, Groshans, Kirk, or Robberse, you can’t blame it on the bullpen. That would be a big mistake, and will not help us in the future.

That type of a move is a failure of our kiddy core and a management team locked into a narrative that didn’t happen this year.

That's a random grab of prospect/players there. How is it a mistake without illustrating the return? If we traded parts of them for a 25yr old front of the rotation starter what's the mistake?

 

[weems]

Tellez to Brewers for Richards

 

[djdev]

That's a random grab of prospect/players there. How is it a mistake without illustrating the return? If we traded parts of them for a 25yr old front of the rotation starter what's the mistake?

you understood whatever this guy just said? you are smarter than me, sir!