Blue Jays Discussion: Joe Panik traded for the reliever we need.

[phillipmike]

They'd counter with Pearson, Martin or Groshans, and probably Kirk...and still expect Kay and Tellez. And that's being generous. There is no way Oakland is going to let us get away with grabbing Donaldson again. And then you've got to start thinking about extending those guys into their late 30s in just a few years (or keep the younger players for potentially 10).

And why Olson? Isn't Vladdy enough? Not like Montoyo uses the DH as a static position, anyway.

The only team that might overpay for Tellez is the Red Sox's what with Martinez approaching the end of his contract, Dalbac being pretty blah so far and that kid they have still some years away. Tellez seems to hit weirdly well in Fenway. Unlikely given its the same division.

You’re overrating Chapman. He isn’t the 7-8+ WAR player he or Donaldson was. Chapman is on pace for 4-5 WAR season this year and last which is great but Biggio put up 5+ bWAR or 4 fWAR in his first 162 games at league minimum with 4.5 years of control. Donaldson had 4 years of control at the time of the trade. Chapman has 2.5 left and his defense declined a little after hip surgery. I wouldn’t trade Biggio just for Chapman hence why I would want Olson back. Olson is a big power lefty bat, perfect for the lineup.

I brought up Tellez because Billy Beane wanted Tellez in the deal for Zobrist but AA said no. My guess is the A’s would have interest when I proposed this in the offseason after the season Tellez came off of. In this trade Oakland saves $6M this year, probably $20-30M next year and possibly 30-40M the year after while getting 3 players still making league minimum this year, and next plus having 3 more years of control. Right up Oakland’s alley.

Well, that's an overpayment. You could just as easily sign one of the many big SS's next year. Meanwhile, Kirk could be another Vladdy. And this still doesn't address the team's REAL issue: PITCHING. Three starters on expiring contracts in 2 years, people!

You’re really underrating Ramirez and he isn’t a SS, he is a 3B which is a big need. This is one of the best player in the league for the last 5.5 years. He would immediately be our 2nd best player behind only Vladdy. Ramirez has the 3rd best fWAR in the league since 2016; only Trout and Betts were above him. He is owed $9.4M this year, $11M next and $13M the year after and they are all options. That’s one of the best values in the league. Eventhough it isn’t a huge need, I’d gladly drive Kirk, Groshans, and any other secondary prospects to get arguably the 3rd best player in the league on a great contract. Jansen and McGuire could hold the fort down until Moreno is ready. Ramirez at 3B means you don’t need Groshans so no harm no foul. Re-sign Ramirez to play 3B or Martin is ready.

And most importantly Ramirez is a near elite defender who is also a switch hitter; which is something we need.

I don’t think the Jays pay a big price for another position player but it wouldn’t be a bad idea if that player is one of the best players in the league who can play great defense at 3B with control. If you recall in 2015 the Jays didn’t just go after pitching, they went after “run prevention”. The defense was awful in 2014 hence why AA got Martin, Travis, Saunders, Smoak and Donaldson in the offseason and then Tulo to shore up SS. Price was the biggest acquisition but numbers 2, 3 and 4 in importance was Tulo, Revere and Pennington to improve the defense. The 2015 and 2021 Jays teams have no problems scoring runs, they need to prevent them. Pitching would help but so would near elite defense.

As a team, the Jays rank 28th in DEF. Jays rank 20th in 3B fWAR and 24th in DEF at 3B.

Ramirez is 3rd best defender at 3B this season. This will immensely help run prevention and perhaps help Bichette’s defense at SS too. A better defense will save the starters who will throw less pitches allowing them to go deeper into games which puts less stress on the relievers.

Don’t take my comments to heart. I’m just answering each individual question in a vacuum because i of course wouldnt try to trade for Chapman, Olson and Ramirez at the deadline. If I were the GM, I wouldn’t just go after position players. Of course we need some pitching but like I said “run prevention” isn’t just pitching.

 

[phillipmike]

Liam Hendriks Says He's 'Not a Fan' of Ex-Teammate Josh Donaldson | Sports Illustrated Toronto Blue Jays News, Analysis and More

Hendriks — Donaldson's teammate during the 2015 Blue Jays season — told NBC Sports Chicago on Thursday that he's "not a fan" of the former AL MVP.

"Playing with Donaldson," Hendriks said. "I am not a Donaldson fan. On the field, one of the greatest. You want him on the team behind you. But I saw behind the curtain too much, and I'm not a fan."

 

[phillipmike]

2021 MLB Mock Draft - V 6.0 — Prospects Live

19. Toronto Blue Jays
Anthony Solometo, LHP, Bishop Eustace
The connection between the Jays and Solometo continues to get louder and louder. There are folks close to the prep southpaw who believe, if he makes it this far, it’s as good as gold. That said, a lot can change and there could always been surprises that fall into the lap of the Great White North. Austin Martin tumbled to Toronto in 2020. That sort of thing could happen again this year.

Can’t believe they have Rocker going 10. Let him keep tumbling, I’ll take him. Jobe at 3 is something I haven’t seen before.

 

[Lunatik]

When do we start talking about Bichette's sub-par defense hurting this team? He's now the MLB leader in errors w/ a below average fielding percentage. And let's be honest, his mistakes are either poor choices (such as his throwing error last night), or easy plays he just boots (like his other error last night).

 

[Discoverer]

When do we start talking about Bichette's sub-par defense hurting this team? He's now the MLB leader in errors w/ a below average fielding percentage. And let's be honest, his mistakes are either poor choices (such as his throwing error last night), or easy plays he just boots (like his other error last night).

There's some reason for concern there for sure, but when it comes to long-term viability as a SS, I think I prefer mistakes like that to physical limitations. He seems to read balls well and have good range and a strong arm - all of the physical tools you want to see from a SS. He does dumb things or makes bad throws sometimes, but those seem like things that can be improved through more practice (better footwork, better angle charging the ball, etc.) or by getting more experience.

That's not to say there's any guarantee he'll get there, of course, but I'll take that over someone who makes all the routine plays but can't get to a ball hit more than five feet to either side and can't make a strong enough throw to get the out if he does happen to make the play (like a former Yankee SS whose name escapes me right now).

 

[ER89]

When do we start talking about Bichette's sub-par defense hurting this team? He's now the MLB leader in errors w/ a below average fielding percentage. And let's be honest, his mistakes are either poor choices (such as his throwing error last night), or easy plays he just boots (like his other error last night).

yeah he's been ass defensively. The kid needs to let semien play SS for a bit. Him and cavan are horrible ( at d)

 

[weems]

With all this spider tack (pine tar) crackdown, anyone worried about Simeon Woods Richardson?

He had been absolutely lights out his first 7 starts of the season with 53k's to only 13bb.
He had never given up more then 3 runs in a single outing and now has given up 6 runs in back to back starts (2.2ip and 3ip) while only striking out 3 batters in that span while walking 8.

In his previous 4 starts before that he had struck out 25 while only walking 4.

Hopefully its just some random two game lull but its pretty crazy how dominant he was and now how badly he got rocked the past two starts while missing zero bats.

Is he injured? Was he also using the sticky stuff?

 

[canucksfan]

With all this spider tack (pine tar) crackdown, anyone worried about Simeon Woods Richardson?

He had been absolutely lights out his first 7 starts of the season with 53k's to only 13bb.
He had never given up more then 3 runs in a single outing and now has given up 6 runs in back to back starts (2.2ip and 3ip) while only striking out 3 batters in that span while walking 8.

In his previous 4 starts before that he had struck out 25 while only walking 4.

Hopefully its just some random two game lull but its pretty crazy how dominant he was and now how badly he got rocked the past two starts while missing zero bats.

Is he injured? Was he also using the sticky stuff?

The Jays didn't seem to be using the sticky stuff so I doubt SWR was using it. I think his velo is down a bit and also his control. I would bet on a rough stretch or an injury.

 

[kb]

The Jays didn't seem to be using the sticky stuff so I doubt SWR was using it. I think his velo is down a bit and also his control. I would bet on a rough stretch or an injury.

Might be as simple as him tipping pitches like Stripling was......

 

[canucksfan]

Might be as simple as him tipping pitches like Stripling was......

On credible tweet had him maxing out at 92mph which seems low for him and control problems. I think he's usually maxing out around 95mph.

 

[kb]

On credible tweet had him maxing out at 92mph which seems low for him and control problems. I think he's usually maxing out around 95mph.

Yeah, that's not good. Sounds like he's trying to pitch through something, which can lead to much more serious issues.

 

[Morgs]

I looked up SWR's game logs in his whole career: His career numbers prior to these last two games:

32.1 K%, 6.3 BB%, .226 AVG, .331 BABIP, 3.33 ERA, 2.38 FIP

The worst stretch of his career (May 1st - May 17th 2019)

4GS, 18.2 K%, 10.6 BB%, .356 AVG, .435 BABIP, 14.21 ERA, 4.28 FIP

Walked more than usual, got BABIP'd to death, and wasn't able to strike out guys at his career rate. FIP was still relatively good so it looked like he kinda got unlucky and/or faced some good comp and got crushed.

The two game stretch he's currently on:

8.1 K%, 21.6 BB%, .448 AVG, .458 BABIP, 19.06 ERA, 11.34 FIP

The guy had an uncharacteristically awful control game on June 26th which ballooned his career BB% almost a whole %. He's getting crushed and he's no longer striking anybody out.

It's definitely too early to panic, but if it is sticky-stuff related this is not good news at all. His velo being down is also scary as it could be arm related which could be even worse. On the bright side he had his control back yesterday, but on the not so bright side, he had his worst K% game of his whole career.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[aingefan]

On credible tweet had him maxing out at 92mph which seems low for him and control problems. I think he's usually maxing out around 95mph.

Could be a bit of a dead-arm lull, too.

But it’s a pretty stark contrast to his previous results. Will be something to watch moving forward obviously.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Prospect sticky stuff is going to be an interesting topic to follow. In the offseason they might come to a universal agreement that there's a particular substance that everyone is allowed to use. But the spider tack is obviously not going to be allowed. Perhaps he was using spider tack and will take a big hit, perhaps he was using something else that might be allowed next year. Perhaps he was using something else that won't be allowed next year either. Perhaps he's just injured. Perhaps it's just a bad stretch, who knows.

But the fall of certain prospects is going to be spider tack related and for the public anyway it'll likely just be attributed to another failed pitching prospect which is extremely common anyway.

 

[FreeBird]

With all this spider tack (pine tar) crackdown, anyone worried about Simeon Woods Richardson?

He had been absolutely lights out his first 7 starts of the season with 53k's to only 13bb.
He had never given up more then 3 runs in a single outing and now has given up 6 runs in back to back starts (2.2ip and 3ip) while only striking out 3 batters in that span while walking 8.

In his previous 4 starts before that he had struck out 25 while only walking 4.

Hopefully its just some random two game lull but its pretty crazy how dominant he was and now how badly he got rocked the past two starts while missing zero bats.

Is he injured? Was he also using the sticky stuff?

 

[FreeBird]

Walker Strowman Foley pace METS TO PLAY OFFS wtf jays don't know Pitching

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Pitching results are dropping since removal of sticky stuff .. makes sense as pitchers can't get great grip especially in heat when ball slips .. downside is more guys are getting hit by pitches .. or maybe pitchers will go to rosin bag every pitch to dry off their hand too and game length will increase .. this is a slippery issue .. bottom line something will give here .. my guess is time of game will increase with summer heat and more hits

 

[Discoverer]

Walker Strowman Foley pace METS TO PLAY OFFS wtf jays don't know Pitching

Meanwhile, Ryu, Ray, Matz, and Stripling have been terrible for the Jays!

 

[FreeBird]

Meanwhile, Ryu, Ray, Matz, and Stripling have been terrible for the Jays!

Walker would be ace of staff could of had him for nothing major blunder there

 

[TGB]

Walker would be ace of staff could of had him for nothing major blunder there

To be fair, it was hardly "nothing". He was apparently asking for something like double what everyone else was offering which was understandably a little unfair. And his consistently high walk rate was a concern at the time.

Granted, I would have done the same thing, so I can't really blame Walker for trying. You'd think the Jays would have been willing to take the risk given starting pitching was their biggest perceived hole at the time. I mean, they were willing to pay Roark...

You’re overrating Chapman.

Irrelevant. That's what the A's will ask for. They have something you want; well, this is what they want. That's how it works.

If anything, it's much more accurate to state you guys are vastly overrating value calculations.

Don’t take my comments to heart. I’m just answering each individual question in a vacuum because i of course wouldnt try to trade for Chapman, Olson and Ramirez at the deadline. If I were the GM, I wouldn’t just go after position players. Of course we need some pitching but like I said “run prevention” isn’t just pitching.

I wasn't. I was just replying to the general concept of trades and how they work. I even pared back my original reply because I thought it sounded too combative. Guess I didn't pare it enough, heh.

And defense is nice, but shutdown pitching is the best form of run prevention there is, and most of the Jays losses in the last month can be directly attributed to bullpen meltdowns. And again, two starters on expiring contracts.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Monday with Mitchell: Breaking down the Blue Jays' trade chips - TSN.ca

TORONTO — We know the Toronto Blue Jays are buyers heading into the July 30 trade deadline.

But what will they have to sell in order to get what they need?

Luckily, armed with a minor-league system that is robust enough to deliver whatever major-league talent GM Ross Atkins wants to go get, the Jays are in a great position.

Thanks to the depth and redundancy in certain areas, the Jays will not need to completely tear the system apart to make an impact trade or two, either.

Taking a look at each type of trade chip, here are a handful of names — you can get more in depth on all of them here in our top 50 Jays prospects list for 2021 — to keep in mind this month as Atkins’ trade targets start to become clear.

Big-league chips

C Alejandro Kirk
LF Lourdes Gurriel Jr.
C Reese McGuire

The two most asked about areas of the Jays’ roster over the past couple of off-seasons have been their deep catching pipeline, as well as outfielders Gurriel Jr. and Teoscar Hernandez.

While Hernandez has settled in to become an all-star, Gurriel has struggled both with the bat and defensively in left field. Under control for three more seasons after this one, LGJ’s still a valuable trade chip, but the Jays would love for him to get hot over the next three weeks.

Ditto for Kirk, who’s hitting well on a Triple-A rehab assignment as he recovers from a hip injury.

The Jays need to sort out their catching situation and Kirk is by far the best bat, but he might also fetch the most in a trade, with Danny Jansen and McGuire, who cleared waivers earlier this year, probably not having much value.

If Atkins is going to subtract from his group of big-league position players, Kirk and Gurriel and are the most likely candidates.

Elite trade chips

3B/SS Jordan Groshans
3B/SS Orelvis Martinez
RHP Sem Robberse

You’ll notice there’s no Austin Martin, Gabriel Moreno or Simeon Woods Richardson here. I don’t think those three top prospects are on the table, so we have to dig down a little further to the next level of elite depth in the system.

Groshans and Martinez are the top trade chips, but they won’t be on the move for anything less than an impact arm with control left. Rentals won’t be able to pry these guys away.

Robberse isn’t an elite trade chip from a national perspective, but the 19-year-old Dutch hurler is impressing at Low-A Dunedin, striking out 11.8 batters per nine with a four-pitch mix that’s led by a whiff-generating curveball.

He’s the type of lower-level pitching prospect you can build a package around.

 

[aingefan]

On the topic of spin rates and tacky stuff, I wonder what Joey Murray’s comparative spin rate will end up being, since it was reported to be almost legendary. Once he starts pitching again, of course

 

[BigBlu]

Our current kiddy core really screwed management here. This was a year we should have been able to compete on our own merits. Instead,, we goof around on defense and in the clubhouse and force the upper echelon to trade future assets in order to bail out the season.

 

[dredeye]

With all this spider tack (pine tar) crackdown, anyone worried about Simeon Woods Richardson?

He had been absolutely lights out his first 7 starts of the season with 53k's to only 13bb.
He had never given up more then 3 runs in a single outing and now has given up 6 runs in back to back starts (2.2ip and 3ip) while only striking out 3 batters in that span while walking 8.

In his previous 4 starts before that he had struck out 25 while only walking 4.

Hopefully its just some random two game lull but its pretty crazy how dominant he was and now how badly he got rocked the past two starts while missing zero bats.

Is he injured? Was he also using the sticky stuff?

I actually posted that yesterday asking if that might be the issue. Man I hope not because his stock will plunge