Blue Jays Discussion: Joe Panik traded for the reliever we need.

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I sure hope people recognize Semien, Vlad, and Teoscar collectively getting one hit and leaving 14 runners on base was the reason for the loss and not the bullpen.

1) This game maybe, but more games have been derailed by bad bullpen performance or Montoyo making baffling decisions than by the top of the order having a collective off night.

2) Just because one thing was the primary reason for a game turning out poorly doesn't make the other stuff not an issue.

3) I'm not even totally sure about #1 because this game was lost when the Mariners hit a 3-run HR in extra innings to go up for good and did so because Patrick Murphy, who had not been a strong high-leverage performer and came into the game with an ERA in the 5s instead of new pitcher Adam Cimber who had pitched much better and had also not given up a HR in like 35 innings of work this season and only has 12 career HR against in over 130 innings in MLB.
 
What would have made that story perfect is if Ohtani hit the hr

Unfortunately, since they took him out of the game in the first, he loses his ability to hit for the game. That’s the risk of having your pitcher hit on days he pitches.
 
Unfortunately, since they took him out of the game in the first, he loses his ability to hit for the game. That’s the risk of having your pitcher hit on days he pitches.
Oh I know he would have been out by then but you get the point
 
1) This game maybe, but more games have been derailed by bad bullpen performance or Montoyo making baffling decisions than by the top of the order having a collective off night.

2) Just because one thing was the primary reason for a game turning out poorly doesn't make the other stuff not an issue.

Where did I say it wasn't? Obviously I wasn't talking about those games.

The bullpen is not even an issue if those guys get just one hit when the bases were loaded with NOBODY out. Twice. You need to analyze the WHOLE game and not just depend on recency bias.

**And the very moment I type that, I watch the Jays hit into yet another double play.
 
Where did I say it wasn't? Obviously I wasn't talking about those games.

The bullpen is not even an issue if those guys get just one hit when the bases were loaded with NOBODY out. Twice. You need to analyze the WHOLE game and not just depend on recency bias.

**And the very moment I type that, I watch the Jays hit into yet another double play.
Regardless of what our offence did that game, the pitching gave up 9 runs. The offence have bailed out the bullpen several times this season, all the fanbase is asking for is a bullpen that can keep things together when the top of our lineup is having an off day.

In order to be an elite team in this league you need to be able to steal games using different parts of your team.
 
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Where did I say it wasn't? Obviously I wasn't talking about those games.

The bullpen is not even an issue if those guys get just one hit when the bases were loaded with NOBODY out. Twice. You need to analyze the WHOLE game and not just depend on recency bias.

**And the very moment I type that, I watch the Jays hit into yet another double play.

You're going to complain about "recency bias" in my post when you're concerned about the offence faltering last game as opposed to the bullpen coughing it up again, which they've done numerous times throughout the season?

the Blue Jays are:
6th in position player fWAR,
2nd in team wRC+,
2nd in OPS,
4th in OBP,
2nd in Avg,
2nd in wOBA,
3rd in total runs scored,
1st in HR,
6th in doubles,
10th in stolen bases,
2nd in strikeout rate (ranking lowest to highest)

The offence is really, really, really good. It might be having a rough couple of games, but I'm easily betting on them to rebound from that especially now that Springer is a regular in the lineup. Their short term faltering is of almost no concern to me.

Conversely, the Blue Jays bullpen:
19th in 'pen fWAR
4th in losses (most to least)
12th in walk rate (highest to lowest)
23rd in ERA- (I assume adjusted to all pitchers' league average, including starters)
16th in total WPA
23rd in -WPA (ie when things go bad they go really super bad)
17th in Clutch WPA index

The pen has been mediocre at best, really bad at worst. The rotation hasn't helped either. Starter numbers show similar rankings as well, though with potentially more hope for upside.

The bullpen is a bigger issue. People are going to carp on Charlie putting in Murphy over Cimber on Wednesday because it's an ongoing example of the same sorts of things that he's been doing all season. Meanwhile people aren't going to get upset about the top of the order struggling because that's something new and random that we don't expect to happen and probably don't believe it's going to continue moving forward.

I think the people who aren't concerned about the offence are the ones evaluating the WHOLE game. Because evaluating the whole game is what tells you to worry about the stuff that happens with regularity, not the stuff you didn't see coming.

Also the offence still scored 6 runs on Wednesday. That should, more often than not, win you a game. Especially if the relief pitchers are deployed in a sensible manner.

If an offence that has an irregularly bad time at the plate still gives you 6 runs, I don't see the problem. I do see the problem in a pen where Kay and Romano were good, but Thornton and Murphy surrendered 5 runs in less than 2 innings where they probably shouldn't have been in those situations in the first place.
 
You're going to complain about "recency bias" in my post when you're concerned about the offence faltering last game as opposed to the bullpen coughing it up again, which they've done numerous times throughout the season?

the Blue Jays are:
6th in position player fWAR,
2nd in team wRC+,
2nd in OPS,
4th in OBP,
2nd in Avg,
2nd in wOBA,
3rd in total runs scored,
1st in HR,
6th in doubles,
10th in stolen bases,
2nd in strikeout rate (ranking lowest to highest)

The offence is really, really, really good. It might be having a rough couple of games, but I'm easily betting on them to rebound from that especially now that Springer is a regular in the lineup. Their short term faltering is of almost no concern to me.

Conversely, the Blue Jays bullpen:
19th in 'pen fWAR
4th in losses (most to least)
12th in walk rate (highest to lowest)
23rd in ERA- (I assume adjusted to all pitchers' league average, including starters)
16th in total WPA
23rd in -WPA (ie when things go bad they go really super bad)
17th in Clutch WPA index

The pen has been mediocre at best, really bad at worst. The rotation hasn't helped either. Starter numbers show similar rankings as well, though with potentially more hope for upside.

The bullpen is a bigger issue. People are going to carp on Charlie putting in Murphy over Cimber on Wednesday because it's an ongoing example of the same sorts of things that he's been doing all season. Meanwhile people aren't going to get upset about the top of the order struggling because that's something new and random that we don't expect to happen and probably don't believe it's going to continue moving forward.

I think the people who aren't concerned about the offence are the ones evaluating the WHOLE game. Because evaluating the whole game is what tells you to worry about the stuff that happens with regularity, not the stuff you didn't see coming.

Also the offence still scored 6 runs on Wednesday. That should, more often than not, win you a game. Especially if the relief pitchers are deployed in a sensible manner.

If an offence that has an irregularly bad time at the plate still gives you 6 runs, I don't see the problem. I do see the problem in a pen where Kay and Romano were good, but Thornton and Murphy surrendered 5 runs in less than 2 innings where they probably shouldn't have been in those situations in the first place.

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Kiley's latest draft needs/fits list:
19. Toronto Blue Jays
Where their farm system ranks: 11th
Biggest system strengths: Infielders
Biggest system needs: Outfielders
How they typically draft: Toronto has a nice mix of risky/safe, pitcher/hitter and prep/college at high picks, taking what the board gives it.
Best fits: College pitching (Gunnar Hoglund, Will Bednar, Ty Madden), the top of the third tier of position players (Jay Allen, Jud Fabian) and the second tier of prep arms (Anthony Solometo, Frank Mozzicato) are what the board is giving the Blue Jays here and what they're rumored to be shopping for.
Past five first-round picks: INF Austin Martin (2020); RHP Alek Manoah (2019); SS Jordan Groshans (2018); SS Logan Warmoth (2017); RHP Nate Pearson (2017)

I'd personally go:

College pitching (Will Bednar, Gavin Williams, Ryan Cusick), the second tier of prep arms (Anthony Solometo, Frank Mozzicato, Chase Burns) and the top of the third tier of position players (Trey Sweeney, Joshua Baez, Colson Montgomery).
 
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Elvis Luciano has been on fire since late June.

Now 0er over his last 4 starts 12.2ip 10h 5bb 15so.

2.42era on the year, and still only 21 in AA despite two lost years of development.
 
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Shoemaker with the Jays: 1.8 bWAR

Shoemaker with the Twins: -1.9 bWAR

Imagine you are so bad you lose your job to Derek Law.

Too bad though, thought he would have been good for the Twins. Maybe he was a spider tack guy too for us in 2019 and 2020.
 
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