truck
Registered User
I anticipate an uneventful day.
Moving Gooch is about all I expect.
A grander move towards the future (Pirri or other) would be super duper bonus.
Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (Part XVIII)
- Thread starter Hank Chinaski
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud has scheduled an upgrade to XenForo version 2.2.16. This will take place on or shortly after the following date and time: Jul 05, 2024 at 05:00 PM (PT) There shouldn't be any downtime, as it's just a maintenance release. More info here
- Status
I anticipate an uneventful day.
Moving Gooch is about all I expect.
A grander move towards the future (Pirri or other) would be super duper bonus.
This.
Biggest Jets related myth on HFboards.
I haven't seem any quasi-legitimate source for any rumour. The only thing I've heard from someone I trust is BMac saying that teams are inquiring regarding Kane.
Sweech
Oh When the Spurs
I think Gooch gets moved for sure, but I also think Stuart does as well.
I just think that there's too many teams who want an extra d-man for a playoff run and especially someone with his intangibles and will overpay to acquire him.
Romang67
BitterSwede
If Kane actually does get traded one day, we're going to have 29 fanbases saying that they knew that it would happen because of the rumors, and the Jets' fanbase being shocked, because there really hasn't been any more or less rumors than the ******** ones that have been circulating for 3 years now.
It's super interesting how peoples perceptions of things are so different. Some people saying that Byfuglien is decent defensively as a defenseman, and others (me included) not so much. Then you have people claiming that they moved Byfuglien to F cause our bottom 6 depth is terrible. Yet you have other people saying that our defensive depth isn't good either, complaining about having Stuart, Pardy, and Ellerby dressed. 
Very strong opinions on both sides. My take on it is this: If you have a beastly man, 270lbs, skates like a much lighter player, great hands and offensive instincts, WANTS to play D and is GOOD defensively? You NEVER put that guy at forward. I'd like to see one real example of this in the history of NHL hockey.
The Jets realize what many of us know -- Dustin Byfuglien is just not very good in his own zone. He doesn't use his size enough. He loses his men often. He doesn't pick up sticks or tie guys up in front of our net. It's super unfortunate because defense can be taught and the guy just seems unwilling to put in the hard work, every game and practice, to become proficient.
IF Byfuglien was even decent defensively, he would be a top 5 NHL defenseman. There is no way on God's green earth you move someone like that to forward. I think the Jets are really utilizing him in a smart way right now. Play him to all his strengths, use him at D when it makes sense but lessen your risk. If he was on a line with a little more chemistry I don't think anybody would be too upset where he's being used.
I still say Byfuglien does not fit what this team needs or is trying to do. He is the wrong contract status for us and I again do not believe he will re-sign here.
Very strong opinions on both sides. My take on it is this: If you have a beastly man, 270lbs, skates like a much lighter player, great hands and offensive instincts, WANTS to play D and is GOOD defensively? You NEVER put that guy at forward. I'd like to see one real example of this in the history of NHL hockey.
The Jets realize what many of us know -- Dustin Byfuglien is just not very good in his own zone. He doesn't use his size enough. He loses his men often. He doesn't pick up sticks or tie guys up in front of our net. It's super unfortunate because defense can be taught and the guy just seems unwilling to put in the hard work, every game and practice, to become proficient.
IF Byfuglien was even decent defensively, he would be a top 5 NHL defenseman. There is no way on God's green earth you move someone like that to forward. I think the Jets are really utilizing him in a smart way right now. Play him to all his strengths, use him at D when it makes sense but lessen your risk. If he was on a line with a little more chemistry I don't think anybody would be too upset where he's being used.
I still say Byfuglien does not fit what this team needs or is trying to do. He is the wrong contract status for us and I again do not believe he will re-sign here.
It's super interesting how peoples perceptions of things are so different. Some people saying that Byfuglien is decent defensively as a defenseman, and others (me included) not so much. Then you have people claiming that they moved Byfuglien to F cause our bottom 6 depth is terrible. Yet you have other people saying that our defensive depth isn't good either, complaining about having Stuart, Pardy, and Ellerby dressed.
Very strong opinions on both sides. My take on it is this: If you have a beastly man, 270lbs, skates like a much lighter player, great hands and offensive instincts, WANTS to play D and is GOOD defensively? You NEVER put that guy at forward. I'd like to see one real example of this in the history of NHL hockey.
The Jets realize what many of us know -- Dustin Byfuglien is just not very good in his own zone. He doesn't use his size enough. He loses his men often. He doesn't pick up sticks or tie guys up in front of our net. It's super unfortunate because defense can be taught and the guy just seems unwilling to put in the hard work, every game and practice, to become proficient.
IF Byfuglien was even decent defensively, he would be a top 5 NHL defenseman. There is no way on God's green earth you move someone like that to forward. I think the Jets are really utilizing him in a smart way right now. Play him to all his strengths, use him at D when it makes sense but lessen your risk. If he was on a line with a little more chemistry I don't think anybody would be too upset where he's being used.
I still say Byfuglien does not fit what this team needs or is trying to do. He is the wrong contract status for us and I again do not believe he will re-sign here.
I couldn't agree more with your assessment Jet, and was arguing pretty much the same thing earlier in the thread. The player you describe in the 2nd paragraph, not only doesn't get moved to forward, but you pretty much build your team around them. And if you were looking to trade them you could ask for the moon and then some. What would a 270 LBS Pietrangelo fetch in a trade? Multiple roster players+.
I don't necessarily disagree with your contention for the most part. But I tend to think of it differently: I think it's a result more of the talent of Bogosian and Trouba as defensemen. I think defensively they are better than Buff (Maurice seems to have helped unshackle Bogo). But they aren't as good offensively. So the coach is left with the dilemma of having three very strong right side defenders, none of whom are particularly adept at playing their offside. You don't have enough minutes to play your three strong RHD effectively enough.
Couple that with a deficiency of scoring in our third line (though I have to wonder with Kane out why they didn't try Buff on the second line over Thorburn). Buff has shown in the past that he can play forward. Our team has sufficient injuries down in our bottom nine (Halischuk, Kane, Slater) that we have a need for a forward there. You've got a guy, while reluctant to do so, that can effectively play there and provides you with an opportunity for your defensemen to cheat into the zone because you've got a guy that can easily slide back and play the point.
I think it's more asset management than Buff sucking at D. You've got a wealth of RHD and a dearth of scoring forwards in some respects.
Huffer
Registered User
- Jul 16, 2010
- 16,763
- 6,523
It's very easy to distribute icetime between all 3 RD without causing anyone's minutes to go down that much. Play Buff with Pardy, give him top line PP/4on4 time and play him with Trouba in specialized circumstances (team behind a goal with 5 minutes to go). Bogo has been getting like 26 minutes off ice time a game recently and he could stand to see 4-5 minutes cut off his ice time without it being huge cut (infact it's better that Bogo play 20-22 mins a game given his injury history).
Heck I'd even rather have them play one of the RD on left side. Buff playing LD is better than Buff playing RW on the Jokinen line. LD/RD situation has been overblown on these boards too much. If we have an excess of RD and can't trade away any of the RD then one of RD is just gonna have to learn to play LD, that's much better than moving a D-man to forward if the excuse is that "there is a log-jam at RD". Detroit has as bad if not worse of a log-jam on RD than us and they have RD playing LD all the time. The rookie Seth Jones is playing LD and not missing a beat despite being a natural RD.
3rd line is not doing much with Buff on it anyways. One thing that gets underrated about Buff is his vision; at his core he is a playmaker who possesses elite vision. When he plays D, he can see the entire ice and play developing in front of him which he uses to make decisions that result in offensive oppertunities. When he plays at the wing he is too caught up in the minutia of playing the position to create the plays that he so often does from D. Which is why I am pretty sure that even if you put Buff with Ladd and Little you're not gonna see much of a difference
None of that touches on the lack of depth in the Jets forwards.
If one of those guys could play LD, that would be great. I've been a major advocate of that as well. Why do you think they didn't really give it much of a shot besides a few games with Bogo? Maybe none of our 3 is comfortable there.
You're missing the point entirely if you think the "excuse" is that ""there is a log-jam at RD". That is not the point. It's the depth at RD AND the fact that the Jets bottom 6 forwards are not good.
Last edited:
Huffer
Registered User
- Jul 16, 2010
- 16,763
- 6,523
Have to just agree to disagree then with both yourself and JetsFan815.
You think our 3rd pair now is worse than what our bottom 6 was doing before I just don't agree. Maybe someone can go and crunch some numbers. I don't think th3 3rd D pair has been great, but our bottom 6 forwards have been pretty nonexistent this season.
I have no issue using Buff on D, just like I have no issue how they are currently using him.
You guys can disagree and that's fine, but to me the decision to move Buff to forward has very little to do with taking him away from playing defense, or thinking he's a better forward than a defenseman. It's about 2 coaches now trying to do their best to win hockey games. They both have taken a look at the roster, and they both have determined that having Buff at forward makes the most sense due to both having Bogo and Trouba on RD, AND because our forward depth is so poor.
It's a situational thing. If either Bogo or Trouba get injured, Buff goes back. If the Jets somehow had quality forwards, maybe the coach uses all three at D like you and JetsFan describe. To me it's a very specific situation that has made 2 coaches decide to structure their roster this way. Nothing more than that.
Huffer
Registered User
- Jul 16, 2010
- 16,763
- 6,523
Heck I'd even rather have them play one of the RD on left side. Buff playing LD is better than Buff playing RW on the Jokinen line. LD/RD situation has been overblown on these boards too much. If we have an excess of RD and can't trade away any of the RD then one of RD is just gonna have to learn to play LD
I'm glad you brought this up...
Jason York and Garry Galley are on Ottawa radio all the time. They've got about 1900 GP on defense in the NHL between them, and one thing they constantly say is that it is no big deal for a defenseman to play on his off-side. Even switching within a game shouldn't be a problem for players at the NHL level.
I have been wondering for some time now why they haven't tried an RD on the left side on a regular basis. I know Bogo and Trouba played together a bit, but not for more than a game or two, IIRC.
Toby-Buff
Bogo-Trouba
Roll those 2 pairings for 24 minutes each, let Stuart/Postma/Pardy/Ellerby pick up the sheltered minutes at ES. Your bottom pairing is out there less, and there's plenty of minutes to go around for your best 4.
We haven't seen Buff on D since Maurice took over...I'd like to see him play some games strictly on the blueline in the PoMo era.
In Atlanta 2010-11, Buff's 5v5 numbers were very good (GF%, Corsi). Under Noel in 2011-12, his Corsi didn't change much, but his GF% went negative. Both Corsi and GF% got worse in 2012-13. And this year, his Corsi improved and his GF% is disastrous.
2010-11 | 0.551 | 0.544
2011-12 | 0.474| 0.534
2012-13 | 0.467| 0.502
2013-14 | 0.392 | 0.513
Was 2010-11 a blip?
scelaton
Registered User
- Jul 5, 2012
- 3,677
- 5,723
Interesting post, but I believe you may be over-emphasizing Buff's liabilities. I would say he is frequently very good in his own zone, but is prone to occasional costly lapses in intensity and judgement. The Corsi folks believe the latter are grossly exaggerated and others (including his coaches) appear to disagree.
Even with his lapses, I would still put him in the top 20-30 NHL defensemen overall, keeping in mind that Kartlsson and many other great offensive D are just as mistake-prone.
The central issue that Huff makes below and Buggs stated as well is that, on this team at this time, he is best utilized as a hybrid F/PP 4X4 specialist. That could change in a heartbeat with an injury, which is what makes him so valuable.
Agreed, but even with his defensive blemishes, he is still immensely valuable and versatile. I do think he is tradable--and have been advocating this forever--but only for a King(Bogo)'s ransom.
Exactly
It's super interesting how peoples perceptions of things are so different. Some people saying that Byfuglien is decent defensively as a defenseman, and others (me included) not so much. Then you have people claiming that they moved Byfuglien to F cause our bottom 6 depth is terrible. Yet you have other people saying that our defensive depth isn't good either, complaining about having Stuart, Pardy, and Ellerby dressed.
Very strong opinions on both sides. My take on it is this: If you have a beastly man, 270lbs, skates like a much lighter player, great hands and offensive instincts, WANTS to play D and is GOOD defensively? You NEVER put that guy at forward. I'd like to see one real example of this in the history of NHL hockey.
The Jets realize what many of us know -- Dustin Byfuglien is just not very good in his own zone. He doesn't use his size enough. He loses his men often. He doesn't pick up sticks or tie guys up in front of our net. It's super unfortunate because defense can be taught and the guy just seems unwilling to put in the hard work, every game and practice, to become proficient.
IF Byfuglien was even decent defensively, he would be a top 5 NHL defenseman. There is no way on God's green earth you move someone like that to forward. I think the Jets are really utilizing him in a smart way right now. Play him to all his strengths, use him at D when it makes sense but lessen your risk. If he was on a line with a little more chemistry I don't think anybody would be too upset where he's being used.
I still say Byfuglien does not fit what this team needs or is trying to do. He is the wrong contract status for us and I again do not believe he will re-sign here.
Exactly. Agree on everything. Buff on D was over rated here. People looked at his offensive ability, and ignored his terrible defense.
It's no coincidence he was moved to forward after playing a brutal stretch of games on defense. Go back and look at the GDT and PostGDT, people were tired of his play, even ones that supported him.
I've been saying we should move him since the beginning of the year, even though he wouldn't bring back an elite return (which I was bashed for
). But I actually don't mind him in the position he is in now. We get his offensive ability on D during power plays, and also him as a forward. I think a line of Kane/Scheif/Buff would be deadly. Scheif and Buff have very high hockey IQs that could make some great plays.
Gil Fisher
Registered User
I've been thinking this as well. Was his on-ice SH% abonomally high in 2010-11? Perhaps his CF% is high because it is dominated by corsi events from the point in the offensive zone. Do we know average shot distance for and against over these years?
JetsFan815
Replacement Level Poster
- Jan 16, 2012
- 19,305
- 24,659
There is no evidence to suggest that the 3rd line is playing any better since Buff moving to RW. Here are Jokinen/Seto's number pre-Columbus game compared against the post Columbus games (Columbus game was when Buff was switched to RW)
Olli Jokinen's numbers
With Buff on D | 46| 28| 0.609
With Buff on RW | 14| 4| 0.286
And Devin Setogucci's
With Buff on D | 45| 20| 0.444
With Buff on RW | 14| 5| 0.357
I don't see how our bottom 6 is better based on the numbers above. Granted some of the Buff on D games have Jokinen/Seto playing with Kane but even just looking at their performance with Buff on RW it's nothing great. If you take out the couple of PP points they have where Buff plays D it'll look even worse. Even if you have Chris Thorburn playing on that line those guys will still be able to put up similar or atleast .250 PPG which is not much worse than what they are putting up with Buff right now.
I agree bottom-6 depth is a problem but there is no magic-silver-bullet solution for it. Chevy needs to address that problem through a combination of trade, free agency and draft, not by putting one of your most valuable player in a position where he's not contributing much and is likely unhappy. Buff on RW has been sold as the magic-bullet solution when numbers and anecdotal evidence watching the games suggest that is far from reality. And we are not even taking into account the oppertunity cost of not playing Buff on D where he has put up elite numbers
JetsFan815
Replacement Level Poster
- Jan 16, 2012
- 19,305
- 24,659
I have modified your table to remove CF% and replace it with Team GF% so we can compare Buff's GF% relative to the team
2010-11 | 0.551 | 0.451
2011-12 | 0.474| 0.478
2012-13 | 0.467| 0.471
2013-14 | 0.392 | 0.489
Buff's GF% has been in line with the team's except for the two extremities in 2010 and this season. This season is explained by the fact that Buff has had the bad luck of having some terrbile goaltending behind him resulting in one of the worse on-ice sv% in the entire league. I wouldn't be surprised if Buff was reaping the benefits of very good but anolmalous on ice sv% in th 2010-2011 season
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Yup. Something to keep in mind... The Jets as a whole have had worse Goal% than any of their other shot metrics thanks to a certain dead horse.
CaptainChef
Registered User
It's super interesting how peoples perceptions of things are so different. Some people saying that Byfuglien is decent defensively as a defenseman, and others (me included) not so much. Then you have people claiming that they moved Byfuglien to F cause our bottom 6 depth is terrible. Yet you have other people saying that our defensive depth isn't good either, complaining about having Stuart, Pardy, and Ellerby dressed.
Very strong opinions on both sides. My take on it is this: If you have a beastly man, 270lbs, skates like a much lighter player, great hands and offensive instincts, WANTS to play D and is GOOD defensively? You NEVER put that guy at forward. I'd like to see one real example of this in the history of NHL hockey.
The Jets realize what many of us know -- Dustin Byfuglien is just not very good in his own zone. He doesn't use his size enough. He loses his men often. He doesn't pick up sticks or tie guys up in front of our net. It's super unfortunate because defense can be taught and the guy just seems unwilling to put in the hard work, every game and practice, to become proficient.
IF Byfuglien was even decent defensively, he would be a top 5 NHL defenseman. There is no way on God's green earth you move someone like that to forward. I think the Jets are really utilizing him in a smart way right now. Play him to all his strengths, use him at D when it makes sense but lessen your risk. If he was on a line with a little more chemistry I don't think anybody would be too upset where he's being used.
I still say Byfuglien does not fit what this team needs or is trying to do. He is the wrong contract status for us and I again do not believe he will re-sign here.
well said - totally agree. So if hes not going to resign lets get him traded please while he still has decent value. As for his value dropping because we're playing him forward - don't buy it. Teams see his value as a forward and a defenseman (realizing theres a fair bit of work still required to make him into a really good defenceman). His biggest value to the Jets & to many teams is his versatility and esp. his PP potential
Last edited:
CaptainChef
Registered User
KittyCarlyle
Registered User
- Jul 5, 2011
- 75
- 0
truck
Registered User
Hmm...
.914
.906
.905
.902
Those numbers dropped as well.
Coincidence? Me thinks 'No'.
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
OOO OOO OOO!!!
I'll take what is Pavelec's save percentage for 200...
Funny how people blamed Byfuglien for Pav's numbers when in truth it is more the opposite.
See:
The whole team is like that (see the grey line marked 3. on right side), not just Buff.
It's super interesting how peoples perceptions of things are so different. Some people saying that Byfuglien is decent defensively as a defenseman, and others (me included) not so much. Then you have people claiming that they moved Byfuglien to F cause our bottom 6 depth is terrible. Yet you have other people saying that our defensive depth isn't good either, complaining about having Stuart, Pardy, and Ellerby dressed.
Very strong opinions on both sides. My take on it is this: If you have a beastly man, 270lbs, skates like a much lighter player, great hands and offensive instincts, WANTS to play D and is GOOD defensively? You NEVER put that guy at forward. I'd like to see one real example of this in the history of NHL hockey.
The Jets realize what many of us know -- Dustin Byfuglien is just not very good in his own zone. He doesn't use his size enough. He loses his men often. He doesn't pick up sticks or tie guys up in front of our net. It's super unfortunate because defense can be taught and the guy just seems unwilling to put in the hard work, every game and practice, to become proficient.
IF Byfuglien was even decent defensively, he would be a top 5 NHL defenseman. There is no way on God's green earth you move someone like that to forward. I think the Jets are really utilizing him in a smart way right now. Play him to all his strengths, use him at D when it makes sense but lessen your risk. If he was on a line with a little more chemistry I don't think anybody would be too upset where he's being used.
I still say Byfuglien does not fit what this team needs or is trying to do. He is the wrong contract status for us and I again do not believe he will re-sign here.
If I were to post something here, all I would have to do is copy word for word. My sentiments to a tee...
- Status
