Tribute Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Goodbye and Good Luck part II

[Heffyhoof]

How should they have managed the asset this off season?

I know I know, many think they screwed his development but specifically this off season what should they have done to manage the "wasted" asset.
At some point ya gotta cut ties for the benefit of both sides ( Ala Danault, Petry) and they weren't getting a similar return from a trade so...... what would you have done this off season given the options?

Ahhh yes, let's ignore basically the entire three years he was here, aka all of the context surrounding this asset and ignore the context of what else occurred in terms of players like Danault leaving the team.

Using just the last 30-60 day sample though, this was fantastic asset management (even then it wasn't) by the Sublime Maestro himself. NO-ONE could have done any better.

 

[aresknights]

Ahhh yes, let's ignore basically the entire three years he was here, aka all of the context surrounding this asset and ignore the context of what else occurred in terms of players like Danault leaving the team.

Using just the last 30-60 day sample though, this was fantastic asset management (even then it wasn't) by the Sublime Maestro himself. NO-ONE could have done any better.

Not ignoring anything lol. You think every pick every team turns out? OK.

Problem with your questioning the 3 yrs is you have no proof it would have been any different. Just your opinion.
BUT we can look at where we are now and ask what what you have done different. Esp with the "(even thou it wasnt)" sooooo what would you have done in the present?
Matched the OS?
Taken less in a trade?
Forced him to sign at gun point?
Any other options?

 

[Doc5]

Nope MB didn't call me n tell me but Carolina did say they tried to trade for him.....
Maybe someone else has a link from Habs saying they offered less than than the OS return and in a world as small as 30ish players people would know.....

Yeah, we'd never know. I still think we could have got more for him than a late first and a third round pick but oh well.

Our third over all picks are cursed. I was thinking of how I wish we could have got the third overall pick in Stuetzle's draft instead (2020) and then looked back and saw that the third overall pick from the 2014 draft (2 years after our Galchenyuk pick) was Draisaitl. Next time we get a third overall pick, we need to ask for a raincheck on it.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Nice fresh fresh start for KK tho I will always look back fondly on those days - albeit brief- that Eric Staal was a Canadien.
Still can’t believe he’s not signed to a lengthy contract

 

[Kimota]

Basically imagine if we are about to offer sheet Tkachuk. Then we promise him on January 1 we sign him 8 years $8 mil per. His current rights still belongs to Ottawa so we can’t make extensions on a player we don’t have. If the reports were true about the extensions before the offer sheet, I don’t know if there will be a penalty.

So making the same mistake that we did with Aho. It would be a gift to the Sens. It would take far more than to get him. That's about what he should get now. It would have to be 12 so they cannot match it.

 

[417]

How should they have managed the asset this off season?

I know I know, many think they screwed his development but specifically this off season what should they have done to manage the "wasted" asset.
At some point ya gotta cut ties for the benefit of both sides ( Ala Danault, Petry) and they weren't getting a similar return from a trade so...... what would you have done this off season given the options?

They made the best out of a bad situation they created.

 

[417]

Not ignoring anything lol. You think every pick every team turns out? OK.

Problem with your questioning the 3 yrs is you have no proof it would have been any different. Just your opinion.
BUT we can look at where we are now and ask what what you have done different. Esp with the "(even thou it wasnt)" sooooo what would you have done in the present?
Matched the OS?
Taken less in a trade?
Forced him to sign at gun point?
Any other options?

There’s no way of knowing how things would have turned out… but what one can’t deny is that by being a bit more patient with the player, he wouldn’t have been an offer sheet target, so this entire situation would have been avoided.

Hell, last year should/could have been his rookie year.

So while it’s fair to recognize that MB was able to pivot nicely by acquiring Dvorak, it’s also fair to suggest that they made a lot of mistakes along the way (which in itself, also doesn’t absolve KK from criticism btw) when it comes to his development.

He’s going to get a lot of opportunities In Carolina, the ice time won’t be much different, but the opportunities will. So it will be interesting to see how things unfold for him.

Either way, it’s an indictment…tough pill to swallow having two #3 picks and them both not working out.

not sure how it can be seen any other way tbh

 

[Miller Time]

How should they have managed the asset this off season?

I know I know, many think they screwed his development but specifically this off season what should they have done to manage the "wasted" asset.
At some point ya gotta cut ties for the benefit of both sides ( Ala Danault, Petry) and they weren't getting a similar return from a trade so...... what would you have done this off season given the options?

the "what if" game is best placed in the trade thread...

the asset, from development, to communication, to public commentary, was terribly mishandled.

Simple example... post-season commentary. At the time, it was beyond obvious that some TLC was both warranted and beneficial... instead, MB continued with the idiotic approach of using the PC to try and validate his own approach and dump all responsibility on the player. As it would have it, that busted relationship made signing him to a reasonable RFA deal difficult and opened the door for the offer sheet mess.

The options were limited by our own mishandling of the player and situation, and even still, we did about everything "right" to ensure he wouldn't be back.

now all that remains to be seen is if/how good he becomes. some of us saw (as apparently the canes brass does) top-6 if not top-line potential in the not so distant future. A 1st (likely to be late) and 3rd is a piss poor asset return for an RFA talent of that nature, no matter the spin applied.

 

[Miller Time]

Let’s hear how you would’ve signed him to a 10 year 700k a year contract and you can’t believe Bergy didn’t get him to.

that you need such a nonsense equivalent to make your point speaks volumes to how little substance your take has... and perhaps also explains your appreciation of MB's approach

 

[aresknights]

There’s no way of knowing how things would have turned out… but what one can’t deny is that by being a bit more patient with the player, he wouldn’t have been an offer sheet target, so this entire situation would have been avoided.

Hell, last year should/could have been his rookie year.

So while it’s fair to recognize that MB was able to pivot nicely by acquiring Dvorak, it’s also fair to suggest that they made a lot of mistakes along the way (which in itself, also doesn’t absolve KK from criticism btw) when it comes to his development.

He’s going to get a lot of opportunities In Carolina, the ice time won’t be much different, but the opportunities will. So it will be interesting to see how things unfold for him.

Either way, it’s an indictment…tough pill to swallow having two #3 picks and them both not working out.

not sure how it can be seen any other way tbh

And KK was given a huge op and didn't run with it as much as he could have.
He earned a spot at 18 based on the roster.
JMO but both sides could have do e things different to help the development.
It's not all on KK nor is it all on MB or the coaches.

It would be interesting to look at all the 3rd overall picks over the last 10-15 yrs just to see. And than factor in strength of draft also. No idea the outcome but I'm guessing it's not a guarantee of a star.

 

[417]

And KK was given a huge op and didn't run with it as much as he could have.
He earned a spot at 18 based on the roster.
JMO but both sides could have do e things different to help the development.
It's not all on KK nor is it all on MB or the coaches.

It would be interesting to look at all the 3rd overall picks over the last 10-15 yrs just to see. And than factor in strength of draft also. No idea the outcome but I'm guessing it's not a guarantee of a star.

Yeah I’ve gone over this a lot but I’ll just say I don’t quite agree he was given a huge opportunity.

Like you said, the composition of the roster and their focus on the immediate, yielded him a spot on the team at 18.

It was shortsighted…both GM and the coach have admitted that.

Now again, that doesn’t mean it would have changed who the player is today, but our and their perception of him would be completely different.

The Canes have every reason to try to prop up Kotkaniemi - as much as the Habs did considering they drafted him 3rd overall and graduated him at 18 - but unlike the Habs with Kotkaniemi, he’ll get a much longer leash, if only to justify their offer sheet.

They’ll try to make him more integral to what they’re doing vs the Habs who just kept him on the periphery.

 

[aresknights]

the "what if" game is best placed in the trade thread...

the asset, from development, to communication, to public commentary, was terribly mishandled.

Simple example... post-season commentary. At the time, it was beyond obvious that some TLC was both warranted and beneficial... instead, MB continued with the idiotic approach of using the PC to try and validate his own approach and dump all responsibility on the player. As it would have it, that busted relationship made signing him to a reasonable RFA deal difficult and opened the door for the offer sheet mess.

The options were limited by our own mishandling of the player and situation, and even still, we did about everything "right" to ensure he wouldn't be back.

now all that remains to be seen is if/how good he becomes. some of us saw (as apparently the canes brass does) top-6 if not top-line potential in the not so distant future. A 1st (likely to be late) and 3rd is a piss poor asset return for an RFA talent of that nature, no matter the spin applied.

So no answer to the question, just a blame game? Gotcha. MB bad. Habs org screwed up. No alternative solution in the end of season solution.

And the return they got was more than what was offered so I can't get on board with last statement unless you got something to suggest they were offered more?

Not every player works out. It happens. To every team ever.

Focus on the negatives if you choose. I'll look at both sides. And last 3/4 yrs more good than bad.

Yes Alznsr signing bad, yes KK didn't work out......but lots of sunshine on the other side of that dark cloud.

Has a player ever not oroduce to your standard in a Habs uni that it wasn't the staffs fault? I dont expect an answer

 

[admiralcadillac]

that you need such a nonsense equivalent to make your point speaks volumes to how little substance your take has... and perhaps also explains your appreciation of MB's approach

Neat! Give it a go then.

 

[aresknights]

Yeah I’ve gone over this a lot but I’ll just say I don’t quite agree he was given a huge opportunity.

Like you said, the composition of the roster and their focus on the immediate, yielded him a spot on the team at 18.

It was shortsighted…both GM and the coach have admitted that.

Now again, that doesn’t mean it would have changed who the player is today, but our and their perception of him would be completely different.

The Canes have every reason to try to prop up Kotkaniemi - as much as the Habs did considering they drafted him 3rd overall and graduated him at 18 - but unlike the Habs with Kotkaniemi, he’ll get a much longer leash, if only to justify their offer sheet.

They’ll try to make him more integral to what they’re doing vs the Habs who just kept him on the periphery.

I hope he does well.

Longer leash may help, or backfire if it exposes him more.
But guaranteed if he flops or treads water in Carolina with the longer leash, playing W with more talent the MB haters will still blame the Habs org. It will never be put on him if he doesn't become a star. .
If he flourishes n explodes, good on him. Wasn't going to happen here n that's OK. Happens to every team.

That's the point as you said, ya never know what woulda been. For some yo take the stance it's 100% Habs org fault is unknown.
Would Idsma done. Probly not. Do I think both sides couldsma done different. Sure in hindsight. But that's easy.

 

[CHfan1]

And the return they got was more than what was offered so I can't get on board with last statement unless you got something to suggest they were offered more?

What we don’t know is what the Habs were asking for in return if they were looking to trade KK.

If the offer was below a (probable) late 1st and 3rd teams were, obviously, lowballing the Habs trying to get KK.

We’ll see how it works out but if Kotkaniemi breaks out, a 1st and 3rd will be not much to give up for Carolina for a young centre with lots of potential.

As far as the Habs go they could have prioritized his signing at the start of the off-season and tried to get a deal done sooner. They ended up having to pick the best scenario of a bad situation.

 

[417]

I hope he does well.

Longer leash may help, or backfire if it exposes him more.
But guaranteed if he flops or treads water in Carolina with the longer leash, playing W with more talent the MB haters will still blame the Habs org. It will never be put on him if he doesn't become a star. .
If he flourishes n explodes, good on him. Wasn't going to happen here n that's OK. Happens to every team.

That's the point as you said, ya never know what woulda been. For some yo take the stance it's 100% Habs org fault is unknown.
Would Idsma done. Probly not. Do I think both sides couldsma done different. Sure in hindsight. But that's easy.

It’s just that typically..high picks are kinda handed that leash, despite what people say it’s not a meritocracy and certain guys get more rope.

We can go back and forth on how much opportunity he had but no one can convince me that this coaching staff had much confidence in the player.

Perhaps it’ll be justified, we’ll see..but ultimately, it’s still not a good look.

 

[aresknights]

What we don’t know is what the Habs were asking for in return if they were looking to trade KK.

If the offer was below a (probable) late 1st and 3rd teams were, obviously, lowballing the Habs trying to get KK.

We’ll see how it works out but if Kotkaniemi breaks out, a 1st and 3rd will be not much to give up for Carolina for a young centre with lots of potential.

As far as the Habs go they could have prioritized his signing at the start of the off-season and tried to get a deal done sooner. They ended up having to pick the best scenario of a bad situation.

Why would KK and agent consider a deal at the start of ladt season? Coming off a year he wasn't as productive as year 1? Unless of course Habs over paid.
And to your 1st w points, sure if he breaks out its not a great return, but if he doesn't it is a good return. And it was reported by Habs the OS compensation was greater thN the trade offer. (if true good move by Habs)

 

[aresknights]

It’s just that typically..high picks are kinda handed that leash, despite what people say it’s not a meritocracy and certain guys get more rope.

We can go back and forth on how much opportunity he had but no one can convince me that this coaching staff had much confidence in the player.

Perhaps it’ll be justified, we’ll see..but ultimately, it’s still not a good look.

I was hoping it would work out. I always do.
Just rarely rarely think it is ever 1 persons fault when things don't work out as we as fans want. Far too many factors n people involved. Not as simple as MB or DD or whoever screwed up as some post. But ya trust was lost with 2 different coaches.....and I can't blame them trying yo win games as they see fit.
Hopefully KK does great, and Carolina craps the bed n passes a lottery pick one and Habs make a deep run again. Doubtful....sure lol

 

[Miller Time]

So no answer to the question, just a blame game? Gotcha. MB bad. Habs org screwed up. No alternative solution in the end of season solution.

And the return they got was more than what was offered so I can't get on board with last statement unless you got something to suggest they were offered more?

Not every player works out. It happens. To every team ever.

Focus on the negatives if you choose. I'll look at both sides. And last 3/4 yrs more good than bad.

Yes Alznsr signing bad, yes KK didn't work out......but lots of sunshine on the other side of that dark cloud.

Has a player ever not oroduce to your standard in a Habs uni that it wasn't the staffs fault? I dont expect an answer

that you don't like or agree with the answer is one thing... can't help you if the understanding of what you read is the issue.

ah yes... the excuse factory back in full force...

anyways, this isn't an Alzner thread, nor an MB thread. JKO was/is a very talented prospect. We spent high draft currency to acquire him, terribly mishandled his development, created unnecessary friction in the relationship with the player, then lost him to an offer sheet that gave us poor value in return.

Also... JKO the player worked out pretty damn well. He contributed in a very positive and important way to our best playoff success in years and was one of the most productive players from his draft class thus far. The only thing that "didn't work out" was how poorly we handled the asset, resulting in us getting pennies on the dollar for the investment we made.

Spin it however you'd like, and certainly don't let me ruin your "glass half full" narrative.

 

[CHfan1]

Why would KK and agent consider a deal at the start of ladt season? Coming off a year he wasn't as productive as year 1? Unless of course Habs over paid.
And to your 1st w points, sure if he breaks out its not a great return, but if he doesn't it is a good return. And it was reported by Habs the OS compensation was greater thN the trade offer. (if true good move by Habs)

You’re missing the point. Sure the offer sheet compensation is better than what was offered but it still sucks. KK was worth more than a (probable) late 1st and a 3rd. Maybe that was better than say a lowball offer of a 2nd and a 3rd but that doesn’t mean much. In the end the Habs had to pick the best scenario of a bad situation which meant taking less than what they should have asked and gotten for KK in a trade.

 

[PaulD]

And KK was given a huge op and didn't run with it as much as he could have.
He earned a spot at 18 based on the roster.
JMO but both sides could have do e things different to help the development.
It's not all on KK nor is it all on MB or the coaches.

It would be interesting to look at all the 3rd overall picks over the last 10-15 yrs just to see. And than factor in strength of draft also. No idea the outcome but I'm guessing it's not a guarantee of a star.

With Montreal you dont have to guess.

 

[aresknights]

that you don't like or agree with the answer is one thing... can't help you if the understanding of what you read is the issue.

ah yes... the excuse factory back in full force...

anyways, this isn't an Alzner thread, nor an MB thread. JKO was/is a very talented prospect. We spent high draft currency to acquire him, terribly mishandled his development, created unnecessary friction in the relationship with the player, then lost him to an offer sheet that gave us poor value in return.

Also... JKO the player worked out pretty damn well. He contributed in a very positive and important way to our best playoff success in years and was one of the most productive players from his draft class thus far. The only thing that "didn't work out" was how poorly we handled the asset, resulting in us getting pennies on the dollar for the investment we made.

Spin it however you'd like, and certainly don't let me ruin your "glass half full" narrative.

Sure

 

[aresknights]

You’re missing the point. Sure the offer sheet compensation is better than what was offered but it still sucks. KK was worth more than a (probable) late 1st and a 3rd. Maybe that was better than say a lowball offer of a 2nd and a 3rd but that doesn’t mean much. In the end the Habs had to pick the best scenario of a bad situation which meant taking less than what they should have asked and gotten for KK in a trade.

I don't think KK had a high trade value after this season.
Wish he killed it here, yes scored a couple big goals but also had weaknesses to his game.
No biggie, pick didn't work out, staff didn't trust him, he wanted out, got a decent return.

 

[aresknights]

You’re missing the point. Sure the offer sheet compensation is better than what was offered but it still sucks. KK was worth more than a (probable) late 1st and a 3rd. Maybe that was better than say a lowball offer of a 2nd and a 3rd but that doesn’t mean much. In the end the Habs had to pick the best scenario of a bad situation which meant taking less than what they should have asked and gotten for KK in a trade.

Habs were put in a tough spot. I agree but because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm Islington the point.
I actually think they got a fair return based on his current game.

 

[TannedBum]

Hah, that started well. Another massive mistake by MB. Late 1st + garbage