Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[darko]

Gorton is not a bad Gm, he has 2 wins as a gm (Stepan, Brassard) and 2 losses (Smith, Staal) and 2 washes (Hags, Talbot). His real test comes at this deadline/draft that will define his tenure here

Talbot and Hags were traded in June. Gorton took the reins July 1st.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Talbot and Hags were traded in June. Gorton took the reins July 1st.

Yea I realized that a couple of minutes ago (mentioned it on one of the other posts) doesn't really affect how I view Gorton tho as I considered both trades washes

 

[kovazub94]

I think we all would agree that the next year to 2 years will define Gorton career as NYR GM.

Being worried about outcome of all the upcoming movements is fine but holding Gorton as incapable right now is silly. He has earned a solid B for what he’s done if you appreciate a context around his moves and returns he got.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

how is the hags and Talbot trades a wash ??? we lost hags and got absolutely ZERO in return....Talbot is a bonafide NHL starting goalie and we got chicken scraps for him

You have to look at the trades in context.

This was the 2015 off-season and here is why these players didn't return more (Although I have said this too many times already, here goes):

Carl Hagelin, a 3rd line winger, who was RFA and who we could not afford after the Staal extension and pending Stepan signing, returned a marginal package of Etem and picks. The cap situation isn't a secret. If fans can find the information online, so can GMs. It's not rocket science. Carl Hagelin's value was low because of our cap situation.

To summarize:
- 3rd line winger
- RFA
- On a team without cap space
- Who never exceeded his rookie point total of 38

Cam Talbot, a backup goalie, signed a 1-year extension before being traded. He was 27 years old and by no means a bonafide starter when we traded him. There were also younger, more valuable (does not necessarily mean better) goalies on the market in Lehner and Jones. That diminishes his value. That 1-year extension I rpeviously mentioned also played a role, because players on a 1-year extension can only be negotiated with for a new extension after January 1st.

To summarize:
- 27-year old backup goalie
- On a 1-year extension
- in an off-season where other, younger, more valuable goalies were available


Yes, we can all say "But, but Hagelin won 2 Cups with Pittsburgh" and "Talbot is a starter, not a backup" but hindsight is 20/20. Nothing was increasing their value on the market considering the situation we were in.

Was the return really that bad? Or did fans just expect too much?

 

[kovazub94]

I'm a believer in the fact that you analyze a trade when it happens, not five years later. Analyzing a trade with the condition of hindsight is a great way to always be right in your analysis.

So, I evaluate the Stepan trade as such:

Stepan value + Raanta value versus 7th overall pick value, deangelo value, and cap space value.

I don't analyze it as: Stepan value + Raanta value versus LA value, DeAngelo value, and Shattenkirk value.

If you evaluate trades such as the latter, well, then you're never done evaluating trades. Unless Andersson, DeAngelo, and Shattenkirk are never traded from this team, which the odds of that are probably slim, then you have to evaluate: well, now we traded Stepan for these guys.

I don't like that. Some people do. Such is life.

Makes sense but some hindsight is necessary because, for example, in this situation Gorton showed foresight to recognize how bad Stepan’s NMC would look once it kicked in or that 7OA would bring him one of certain prospects including Andersson.

On the other hand hindsight of signing Shattenkirk is inappropriate in the context of Smith signing because there was no way of knowing there will be such a big discount. However if you say the dollars given to Smith would be better used on another option for RD -I’d listen to your argument but I don’t think there was a clear alternative in that price range.

 

[tailgunner]

You have to look at the trades in context.

This was the 2015 off-season and here is why these players didn't return more (Although I have said this too many times already, here goes):

Carl Hagelin, a 3rd line winger, who was RFA and who we could not afford after the Staal extension and pending Stepan signing, returned a marginal package of Etem and picks. The cap situation isn't a secret. If fans can find the information online, so can GMs. It's not rocket science. Carl Hagelin's value was low because of our cap situation.

To summarize:
- 3rd line winger
- RFA
- On a team without cap space
- Who never exceeded his rookie point total of 38

Cam Talbot, a backup goalie, signed a 1-year extension before being traded. He was 27 years old and by no means a bonafide starter when we traded him. There were also younger, more valuable (does not necessarily mean better) goalies on the market in Lehner and Jones. That diminishes his value. That 1-year extension I rpeviously mentioned also played a role, because players on a 1-year extension can only be negotiated with for a new extension after January 1st.

To summarize:
- 27-year old backup goalie
- On a 1-year extension
- in an off-season where other, younger, more valuable goalies were available


Yes, we can all say "But, but Hagelin won 2 Cups with Pittsburgh" and "Talbot is a starter, not a backup" but hindsight is 20/20. Nothing was increasing their value on the market considering the situation we were in.

Was the return really that bad? Or did fans just expect too much?

this logic is ludricious...at the end of the day we got NOTHING I repeat NOTHING for hags and Talbot...you can slice and dice it any way you want to but we lost 2 very very good players for nothing in return, that is the end result and that is all that matters...nothing else matters, its what you get back in return that matters and we got fleeced badly in those 2 deals.

 

[JohnC]

this logic is ludricious...at the end of the day we got NOTHING I repeat NOTHING for hags and Talbot...you can slice and dice it any way you want to but we lost 2 very very good players for nothing in return, that is the end result and that is all that matters...nothing else matters, its what you get back in return that matters and we got fleeced badly in those 2 deals.

you have a below elementary level ability to understand context and nuance and that’s why no one listens to your opinions

 

[Trxjw]

The question stands, though. Was it worth it to trade Stepan for that return instead of just holding on to him? I think it's fair for some people to believe yes and other people to believe no.

Meanwhile, if they don't re-sign Smith, they can afford both Stepan and Shattenkirk.

There were other ways to "transition" this roster that some people believe could've been better.

I don't think it's an awful argument to say that Gorton put together a pretty average team with bad depth. A lot of that hinged on trading the team's 1C and not getting any immediate forward help back.

It's really all a matter of perspective, isn't it? Worth is relative and the Rangers had tried to trade him the year before to Arizona and it didn't work out, so I don't think the team really had any desire to hold onto him. I've been a huge Stepan guy since we drafted him, but his game was slowing down and his NTC was about to kick in. Folks are always up in arms about the Rangers tying themselves to other players whose best days are behind them, but perhaps they did just that in that trade.

Obviously we can debate the return until we're blue in the face, but my point is really more general than that. If I proclaim that I won't trade McDonagh for anything less than Connor McDavid, is Gorton to blame when that doesn't happen? No, it's my own faulty understanding of the market. So while I can admit there are deals out there where GMs were obviously selling low, I think it's hard to definitively say that 85% of the time.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Gorton put together an average team with poor depth, but the last couple days make me think that exposing the team's lack of depth might have been the low-key goal all along. I.e., they needed to see what they had and if some guys were going to step up and fill the void that was left. That didn't happen and the plug has been pulled.

Regardless of all that, I just hope people realize this rebuild isn't going to be done over night. My guess is, however, that a lot of people have already made up their minds about how successful it's going to be simply because they've set unrealistic expectations in their mind. Some of the deals I see being proposed for rental players like Nash and Grabner are absolutely insane. When they don't return 1st rounders and two other pieces, some posters are going to turn on him immediately.

 

[silverfish]

It's really all a matter of perspective, isn't it? Worth is relative and the Rangers had tried to trade him the year before to Arizona and it didn't work out, so I don't think the team really had any desire to hold onto him. I've been a huge Stepan guy since we drafted him, but his game was slowing down and his NTC was about to kick in. Folks are always up in arms about the Rangers tying themselves to other players whose best days are behind them, but perhaps they did just that in that trade.

Obviously we can debate the return until we're blue in the face, but my point is really more general than that. If I proclaim that I won't trade McDonagh for anything less than Connor McDavid, is Gorton to blame when that doesn't happen? No, it's my own faulty understanding of the market. So while I can admit there are deals out there where GMs were obviously selling low, I think it's hard to definitively say that 85% of the time.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Gorton put together an average team with poor depth, but the last couple days make me think that exposing the team's lack of depth might have been the low-key goal all along. I.e., they needed to see what they had and if some guys were going to step up and fill the void that was left. That didn't happen and the plug has been pulled.

Regardless of all that, I just hope people realize this rebuild isn't going to be done over night. My guess is, however, that a lot of people have already made up their minds about how successful it's going to be simply because they've set unrealistic expectations in their mind. Some of the deals I see being proposed for rental players like Nash and Grabner are absolutely insane. When they don't return 1st rounders and two other pieces, some posters are going to turn on him immediately.

I can't disagree with anything in this post, and the only reason I keep coming back to this forum is because there still are few and far between some really good, well thought out, genuine posts in here. Wade through the shit, and sometimes you find a diamond.

Re the bolded; couldn't agree more. The same posters clamoring for a rebuild and scorched Earth will be the ones wondering why the Rangers aren't a good team next year.

HFNYR!

 

[Trxjw]

I can't disagree with anything in this post, and the only reason I keep coming back to this forum is because there still are few and far between some really good, well thought out, genuine posts in here. Wade through the ****, and sometimes you find a diamond.

Re the bolded; couldn't agree more. The same posters clamoring for a rebuild and scorched Earth will be the ones wondering why the Rangers aren't a good team next year.

HFNYR!

Well let's keep up the quality posting and hopefully we can cheer for a quality squad sooner rather than later.

 

[ponytrekker]

Lol do you really think Sather ever gave up control? His hands are all over these decisions but now he has a scapegoat in Corton.

Sorry, right. I feel like I got catfished.

 

[Ori]

4.3 mil $ down the toilet and cap hit next 3 years, and epic failure contract signing, Gorton!
B. Smith sent down to Wolfpack, I hope Glen Sather is looking for a new GM as well end of this season.

 

[Inferno]

4.3 mil $ down the toilet and cap hit next 3 years, and epic failure contract signing, Gorton!
B. Smith sent down to Wolfpack, I hope Glen Sather is looking for a new GM as well end of this season.

Yes...Glen Sather...the guy who buried wade sadden and signed the abomination contracts of drury Gomez malakov karpa holik etc etc etc is going to fire gorton because a guy who was very good for us signed a 4 year roughly market level deal whose still in the prime of his career basically no showed this off-season and came to camp just completely out of shape and inept.

This is such a ridiculously ignorant post imho.

The number of ppl here who didn't want Smith could be counted on 1 hand. Probably on 2 fingers of 1 hand. He's was excellent for us last year..particularly in the playoffs.

Everybody had Skjei and Smith penciled in as their 2nd pair.

Gortons not to blame.
Even av isn't as much to blame..though his system does nobody favors.
1 man is to blame..and that's Smith.

Sending him down was the right move...wake-up call...he's either going to respond next year..or his career is over.

 

[Off Sides]

There were more than a handful of poster who were less than thrilled with the idea of both what the Rangers traded for Smith, and what they signed him for.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/brendan-smith.2196297/

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/rangers-sign-brendan-smith-4-years-x-4-35m.2208069/


We all make poor reads, I had no issue with the Girardi contract, and have overvalued fringe NHLer quite often.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

There were more than a handful of poster who were less than thrilled with the idea of both what the Rangers traded for Smith, and what they signed him for.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/brendan-smith.2196297/

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/rangers-sign-brendan-smith-4-years-x-4-35m.2208069/


We all make poor reads, I had no issue with the Girardi contract, and have overvalued fringe NHLer quite often.

Ooo. Had a good one on page 14 of the first one.

 

[Ori]

It`s not ignorant, not that Sather did a better job as GM, but that is in the past - we need to look what Gorton is doing the recent years. Do you really trust this process that he will do a successful rebuild within couple of years and compete for that cup?

It will be really difficult not that he lack knowledge, but it`s not an easy task. And it`s none sense that you can`t say yeah it was a failure of a season, and we expected more of the current core as Gorton mentioned, and injuries were not within the same evaluation.

Do you think Barcelona can replace Messi when he was injured earlier?
And it`s not even a cap league in Spain related to soccer - they have almost double up in every position and bought young talents at very early age.

And we can`t easy replace core players in NHL and that is cap league, which means depth is usually very fragile in NHL in almost every position on the ice and that`s, because of the cap league.

It`s like that for each team in NHL, but injury was and is the main reason we are struggling this year. And we was on a roll as AV mentioned when our goalies were hot, and that is crucial in NHL - it`s no difference for our new goalie talent in Russia. If he is not on a hot streak, or struggle to get his games going in NHL - he will have a difficult career here.

 

[tailgunner]

you have a below elementary level ability to understand context and nuance and that’s why no one listens to your opinions

ok mr above average intelligence please explain to us with your superb intellect, who do we have on our roster in exchange for Hags right now?

 

[trilobyte]

I liked the Smith trade. Trusting that a player would continue to contribute the way I just witnessed (playoffs), and then finding next season that he was almost as physically out of shape as Pavel Brendl does not make me feel bad out by my player judgement.
Yeah, it was a big payment. It would not seem anything close to an overpayment had Smith really given his all. He didn't. I really respect the Rangers front office for dispatching him like that. Bravo.

 

[egelband]

The Hagelin deal sucked for sure. The consensus was that Etem was not good. And that’s how it turned out to be. But the Rangers were in a tough position. They should have managed that one differently. Maybe moved Hags sooner. But I guess they were making a playoff run so they couldn’t.

 

[RangerLifer]

The Hags deal could have been avoided with just a little communication. They could have asked him, "Hey, Hags. Would you be willing to sign a team friendly contract going forward?" He said he was willing to do that but no one even tried to talk to him beforehand [He said this in a recent interview]. That pisses me off.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Yes...Glen Sather...the guy who buried wade sadden and signed the abomination contracts of drury Gomez malakov karpa holik etc etc etc is going to fire gorton because a guy who was very good for us signed a 4 year roughly market level deal whose still in the prime of his career basically no showed this off-season and came to camp just completely out of shape and inept.

This is such a ridiculously ignorant post imho.

The number of ppl here who didn't want Smith could be counted on 1 hand. Probably on 2 fingers of 1 hand. He's was excellent for us last year..particularly in the playoffs.

Everybody had Skjei and Smith penciled in as their 2nd pair.

Gortons not to blame.
Even av isn't as much to blame..though his system does nobody favors.
1 man is to blame..and that's Smith.

Sending him down was the right move...wake-up call...he's either going to respond next year..or his career is over.

Agree.
I was fine with the Smith contract when it was signed. Looks bad now, but lets see how it plays out in the next couple years, i still think he can be a good player for us.

Im actually pretty happy with Gorton so far. Made some solid moves. I said it when we traded Stepan that we are going to be a worse team this season. Stepan was and still is a damn good twoway center. He matched up against other teams top players and was effective in terms of his team winning with him on the ice 5v5. Thats not easy to do against all the other top lines in the NHL with better individual players than anyone on the rangers top line offensively. Stepan traded was a clear sign from Gorton that this would come and i tried to say it to alot of people last summer. You cant compete with Zibanajad-Hayes-Desharnais-Carey as your centers. Specially without any elite offensive point scorers.

I dont think AV should be the coach anymore and he does alot of stupid things but he isnt the main reason for why we are a bad team. The roster is not good enough, simple ass that. Look at our roster the last 5 years. The fact that those rosters had that amount of success without an elite #1D(Mcdonagh is easily a #1D, but not a top 10D in the NHL), elite #1C or an elite point scorer is crazy! The amount of success he got out of our team is pretty incredible. He has had good goaltending which helps but still. As i said im not a huge fan of AV, and i want him gone but he should get some credit for our success, because the rosters he has had, hasnt been as good as the results we have had imo.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

ok mr above average intelligence please explain to us with your superb intellect, who do we have on our roster in exchange for Hags right now?

That's not relevant because Hagelin was basically a cap dump. We could not re-sign him because we did not have the cap space.

But just so you know, we have 3 prospects in our system still as a result of that trade. Jensen (we still own his rights), Gropp and Lakatos.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

That's not relevant because Hagelin was basically a cap dump. We could not re-sign him because we did not have the cap space.

But just so you know, we have 3 prospects in our system still as a result of that trade. Jensen (we still own his rights), Gropp and Lakatos.

Gropp isn’t an add because we just moved up in the trade... and it’s looking like maybe we should’ve stayed where we were at. Lol

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Gropp isn’t an add because we just moved up in the trade... and it’s looking like maybe we should’ve stayed where we were at. Lol

True, but in the end it was a return for a player who was RFA in a situation where we didn't have cap space. This whole "We have nothing on the team from that trade, therefore the trade sucked" is ridiculous

 

[JohnC]

True, but in the end it was a return for a player who was RFA in a situation where we didn't have cap space. This whole "We have nothing on the team from that trade, therefore the trade sucked" is ridiculous

I mean, to be fair, the trade did suck (and probably will for the foreseeable future, but that’s tbd), but that doesn’t mean it can’t be noted how a shitty situation produced a shitty trade. It was public knowledge that the Rangers were forced to choose between Hags and Zucc due to the cap. They chose right imo.

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