Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[Off Sides]

GAG, that is a two part thing

The easier one, we will never agree on, it's not just Dolan, it a publicly traded company that reports its revenue as such, quarterly. That stocks price is a larger drop in the bucket than is being perceived. If they are used to revenue based on the playoffs it actually puts more pressure on them to maintain that same revenue if not increase it. Add in franchise value increase yearly, due to the way they have been operating and yes revenue is important to them as it is for any company.

The tougher one, what Gorton does, if he was really all in on one direction he is not buying out Girardi, or renting Staal, Smith, he is not signing large cap hit UFAs as that all goes against rebuilding as those UFA are going to play over what should be developing players. He is hedging his bets because he likely knows ownership, including stock holders, have some major interest in keeping the team marketable and competitive so they can sell the team (subscriptions, boxes, tickets, sponsorship, merch, etc) . Something UFA signings and being a possibly a playoff team for as long as possible does, and if they make the playoffs it's even more revenue.

If they do sell this year it was not by design in my opinion, it will be because the season dictated it. Just like if they were in a better position, they likely are buying and self renting as that is what that situation would dictate. Basically I see it as they play thing by how it's going, not so much there is some grand long term plan.

 

[RangerBoy]

Dolan is busy with his arena building company. Tim Leiweke and Irving Azoff. They are busy with the building in Seattle and in Elmont. He allows Sather and Gorton to run the hockey team.

 

[RangerBoy]

Dolan is an investor in the Oak View Group. They build the new buildings.

 

[Off Sides]

I know it's uncomfortable to think about it in these terms, but the Rangers, the NHL, all sport besides possibly curling and some others, are businesses first. Each team has it's own market forces, it's own set of circumstance that partially dictate what they do and when they do it.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Dolan is busy with his arena building company. Tim Leiweke and Irving Azoff. They are busy with the building in Seattle and in Elmont. He allows Sather and Gorton to run the hockey team.

True, but how will he react when being told that selling off assets with an eye towards the future may or may not cost the team a few games in playoff revenues?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I know it's uncomfortable to think about it in these terms, but the Rangers, the NHL, all sport besides possibly curling and some others, are businesses first. Each team has it's own market forces, it's own set of circumstance that partially dictate what they do and when they do it.

True - and most of the major NY sports teams have taken a hard stance about how it will do everything to win/compete every season. Its been garbage lip service that has hamstrung teams more often that not.

Not to mention the most strident of teams that had that philosophy, the Yankees, changed gears in 2016 and almost immediately became much more competitive. Not an apples to apples comparison, but if the Yankees can do it, the Rangers sure as hell can.

 

[GAGLine]

I know it's uncomfortable to think about it in these terms, but the Rangers, the NHL, all sport besides possibly curling and some others, are businesses first. Each team has it's own market forces, it's own set of circumstance that partially dictate what they do and when they do it.

This is true, but sports are unique to other businesses. Winning matters as much or more than profits. More winning means more profits. What's better for their bottom line, having 2 or 3 playoff games a year or foregoing the small profits in the short term and building a team that can play 6+ playoff games a year?

 

[Off Sides]

There is no doubt the Rangers could do it, the question to me has always been is it worth it for them to do it? Half the conference makes the playoffs, it's not, or should not be all that difficult for a team like the Rangers given their financials/market to be one of those 8 teams. Only 1 team wins the cup, that is a much more difficult task, so why not just be good enough to make the playoffs if they can market the team thru hopes of winning a cup through UFAs, deadline rentals? They get the revenue, they get the anything can happen mantra, it's all good.

Now lets say they wanted to win the cup, they'd have to sell, they'd have to bad for several years. Make almost all the right moves, and even then they still may never win it.

As a GM, President or Owner (if you don't care about the team) which route does one choose should he know this is a business first?

 

[GAGLine]

As a GM, President or Owner (if you don't care about the team) which route does one choose should he know this is a business first?

An owner might operate purely on a profit basis, though I don't think that's the case with Dolan. The GM and President are hockey people. They care deeply about winning. Can you honestly imagine them putting profits ahead of winning? I can't. And no, they aren't going to just do whatever Dolan tells them to do. If that were actually the case, I can't imagine either Sather or Gorton being here as long as they have. There's no doubt that Sather had, and Gorton now has, complete autonomy to build the team the way he wants. There may be some decisions on which they have to get Dolan's approval, like spending money on buyouts, but for the most part it's up to Gorton and his management team.

Sports are not like other companies. Yes, they all want to make a profit, but the Rangers make a ton of money. Even during the dark years, they still made money. Throwing a couple million more onto the pile won't make a difference. That would be like you or I changing careers to something we don't enjoy, just so we can make .01% more money.

 

[Off Sides]

That is where I guess we disagree, I think the Rangers GMs very much care about the team hitting certain thresholds concerning revenue, or other financial measurements. It think that would be part of their job description just as much as them trying to win would.

 

[NYR]

That is where I guess we disagree, I think the Rangers GMs very much care about the team hitting certain thresholds concerning revenue, or other financial measurements. It think that would be part of their job description just as much as them trying to win would.

I agree.
I do think that part of it mostly falls a bit more on Sather's shoulders but they're all apart of the same objective.

 

[NYR]

I don’t have any problems with Dolan and I think he’s the best owner in the league.

You can never blame him for wanting to make money.
If that wasn’t the objective he would’ve just cashed out and sold the team.

On the flip side of the coin and outside of the cap, he gives this team unlimited resources to operate.
He treats the players very well.
Everything is first class and they have the absolute best in terms of amenities, training, equipment, travel etc..

Any idea how much money he’d save if he knocked that down a few classes?

He doesn’t have to do that so I don’t see it as everything being solely about money.

I honestly believe he cares about us fans as well.

If Sather, who Dolan seems to love, came to him and said he wants to tear it down I don’t think he’d refuse IMO..

 

[NYR]

JG.
You have to wonder what the thought process here in regard to AV still coaching.
Does he believe that this all falls on the players?
Injuries?
Does he believe in this system?
Waiting on a specific coach to become available?

Why the hold up?
Trades and personnel have nothing to do with what's going on behind the bench.

It just doesn't add up and make much sense..

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I haven’t been following Shestyorkin very closely so I don’t know how far along in development he is.
Will he be ready to step in next season?
Starter/backup?

My no trade list is very simple:

Skjei
ADA
Buch
Lettieri
Fast
Shestyorkin

Shestyorkin is under contract in the KHL for next season. You now have to give 18 months advance notice on buying out a contract, so unless he's done that recently, he can't join the Rangers until the 2019-2020 season.

I think your no trade list is too long. Lettieri is barely an NHL'er, Fast is a 4th liner. Too long of a list. ADA has had a few good games, can't put him into that category yet either, in my opinion.

 

[NYR]

Shestyorkin is under contract in the KHL for next season. You now have to give 18 months advance notice on buying out a contract, so unless he's done that recently, he can't join the Rangers until the 2019-2020 season.

I think your no trade list is too long. Lettieri is barely an NHL'er, Fast is a 4th liner. Too long of a list. ADA has had a few good games, can't put him into that category yet either, in my opinion.

Thanks for the info on Shestyorkin.

My list is short.
I'd keep Fast for the bottom 6 but Lettieri and ADA can always be sent down otherwise they wouldn't be on my list

 

[bobbop]

Gorton is not stupid. He's clearly been itching to turn over the roster during the last two off-seasons and now, with two of the teams best players injured long term, he certainly recognizes that the season may be slipping away. Unless something I can't forsee happens, the Rangers probably can't afford Nash next year which means trade at/before the deadline. If I'm Gorton, I'm looking to sell high on Nash and move him right now. Beat the last minute rush. I don't know every potential landing spot but I do know that Nashville is looking for a top 6 winger and they have plenty of trade capital.

 

[nyr2k2]

I disagree with the idea that the Rangers would have to be bad for multiple years to have a legitimate shot at the Cup. Even if you get rid of guys like Grabner, Nash, even McDonagh and Staal, I still think there's a decent base of players there that with a splashy FA signing, some shrewd lesser FA signings, and good drafting in the first (Andersson and Chytil were a good start), you could get back to a team that could make a deep run within a season or two. Goaltending is the tougher part of the equation, and a solution there is possibly a year or two away.

EDIT: Also, the coach. They need a new one. I'm under no illusion that a different coach would have us leading the conference, but I absolutely believe we'd be 6-8 points better off with a different coach and different philosophy. But that's a different discussion for the other thread.

I think Gorton is a smart guy and I have faith in him.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

GAG, that is a two part thing

The easier one, we will never agree on, it's not just Dolan, it a publicly traded company that reports its revenue as such, quarterly. That stocks price is a larger drop in the bucket than is being perceived. If they are used to revenue based on the playoffs it actually puts more pressure on them to maintain that same revenue if not increase it. Add in franchise value increase yearly, due to the way they have been operating and yes revenue is important to them as it is for any company.

The tougher one, what Gorton does, if he was really all in on one direction he is not buying out Girardi, or renting Staal, Smith, he is not signing large cap hit UFAs as that all goes against rebuilding as those UFA are going to play over what should be developing players. He is hedging his bets because he likely knows ownership, including stock holders, have some major interest in keeping the team marketable and competitive so they can sell the team (subscriptions, boxes, tickets, sponsorship, merch, etc) . Something UFA signings and being a possibly a playoff team for as long as possible does, and if they make the playoffs it's even more revenue.

If they do sell this year it was not by design in my opinion, it will be because the season dictated it. Just like if they were in a better position, they likely are buying and self renting as that is what that situation would dictate. Basically I see it as they play thing by how it's going, not so much there is some grand long term plan.

I think it has a lot more to do with hockey than with business.

We could've had significant growth from all of the following:
Skjei, Vesey, Buch, Hayes, Fast, Miller
B/c they're all so young and have all showed signs of being able to step up their game

We also could have gotten continued good-great play from
Nash, Zucc, McD, Grabner, Shattenkirk, Hank, Kreider, Zib (Who still has a little room for growth but realistically is what he is and has played great for us a lot)

Add in expectations for decent play out of Smith 1 FA or 2 FA signings and if a player like Boo or Lias pans out and takes a sudden leap then the team has no reason to be anything but a top 3 team in the East.

To be clear we did not need every single one of those things to happen. But in most cases not only did none of those things happen, the complete opposite did.
We did not see that growth from many of those players.
Several of the older guys and guys who used to consistently be good-great have struggled to be decent way too often.
None of the low end FA's and none of the prospects like Boo or Lias were ready for more than 4th lines roles
Our coach is a egotistical idiot who refuses to change this baffling, ill-fitting system that causes massive D issues (and I'm convinced it has helped stagnate the growth of several young players).

I see no reason, other than the coach, why this team couldn't be contending. Even believing this team has the talent to contend I still barely watch because I've seen a few hundred games with AV as coach, I see what he does to his teams and I knew what we were in for this year until he either gets fired or decides to change his idiotic philosophies on D and physicality.

Even WITH this coach they spent a significant portion of the season right around the 4 spot. But these things always tend to even out and the idiotic roster deployment, injuries, the "chicken without a head" D and Hank unable to be the second coming of Hockey Jesus forever...now the team is plummeting and in hindsight everyone can wonder why Gorton didn't go into the season thinking "tank"

 

[Gardner McKay]

I disagree with the idea that the Rangers would have to be bad for multiple years to have a legitimate shot at the Cup. Even if you get rid of guys like Grabner, Nash, even McDonagh and Staal, I still think there's a decent base of players there that with a splashy FA signing, some shrewd lesser FA signings, and good drafting in the first (Andersson and Chytil were a good start), you could get back to a team that could make a deep run within a season or two. Goaltending is the tougher part of the equation, and a solution there is possibly a year or two away.

EDIT: Also, the coach. They need a new one. I'm under no illusion that a different coach would have us leading the conference, but I absolutely believe we'd be 6-8 points better off with a different coach and different philosophy. But that's a different discussion for the other thread.

I think Gorton is a smart guy and I have faith in him.

For as long as I have been around these boards you have always been the voice of reason. Absolutely agree 100% with what you said.

 

[Larrybiv]

Gorton is not stupid. He's clearly been itching to turn over the roster during the last two off-seasons and now, with two of the teams best players injured long term, he certainly recognizes that the season may be slipping away. Unless something I can't forsee happens, the Rangers probably can't afford Nash next year which means trade at/before the deadline. If I'm Gorton, I'm looking to sell high on Nash and move him right now. Beat the last minute rush. I don't know every potential landing spot but I do know that Nashville is looking for a top 6 winger and they have plenty of trade capital.

Pittsburgh seems to do this EVERY YEAR! They've landed, Kessel, and someone else I can't remember, but their current roster doesn't reflect who it was. Sorry. Nashville also comes to mind.
Don't wait UNTIL the deadline, allow some team to overpay a bit and grab it! Waiting sometimes turns the tide and you get NOTHING and are stuck with them.
I'd trade Grabs and "under the table" make a good offer for next year return.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I understand Sather didn't exactly give him the best roster to inherit, however, he has made some really bad roster moves that have left us with an on-ice product totally incapable of defending. We can split hairs here depending on how Lias develops, but trading Stepan was undoubtedly his worst move as GM IMO. Not because Stepan was special (he wasn't), but Gorton panic-trading (calling a spade a spade here) a top-six center who was good in his own end, a great penalty killer and locker room leader (the REAL captain of this team) simply because of the NTC, didn't exactly give me the confidence he could get this roster to where it needed to be moving forward.

I think Haveandare had a great response to what is, imo, a completely incorrect opinion on the Stepan trade. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it was ANYTHING but a terrific move. Getting rid of the salary commitment ALONE was terrific. Adding a damn good young prospect and an O-dman who clearly has a ton of talent? Terrific move. It's baffling me, how are people seeing what Stepan did the last two years, what he's doing in Arizona and what Arizona is doing as a team and STILL saying "Yea, that's the guy we needed, that's where it all went so wrong"

How Gorton doesn't influence AV's roster and lineup decisions more is a huge red flag for me too. Unsure of their working relationship, but yo-yoing Pavel Buchenvich and benching J.T. Miller thinking you're proving a point when Marc Staal, Nick Holden, Steve Kampfer, David Desharnais and the Tanner Glasses of the world who have passed through here in the last few years have never been held accountable for ALL of their on-ice mistakes, it's mind-numbingly puzzling, frustrating and tiring.

I don't trust him moving forward. I'm scared Dolan thinks they can win and stays the course. Then they let Nash and Grabner "walk," trade McDonagh and Zuccarello like they did Stepan in the offseason, which will put this organization in a deeper hole than they are now. Extremely worried.

The fact that he hasn't dumped AV makes me think he doesn't know how to evaluate coaches at all or he, like many posters, is assigning way too much credit to AV for inheriting an ECF team and taking them one round further (against a Price-less Habs team). You don't have to be a coach to pick up on when a team is being coached poorly and players are being underutilized/held back by the strategy a coach employs

 

[Off Sides]

I think we have to define really contending.

Being one of the 16 teams that make the playoffs?

Having a 50/50 chance in all 4 series to have a ~6% probability?

Of having greater than a 50/50 chance to win 4 straight possible series? Greater than ~6%

To me that last one is really contending, and I just don't think any recent incarnation of this roster ever had those odds, I believe even when they went to the finals they beat their less than 50/50 chance twice to get there.

 

[True Blue]

True, but how will he react when being told that selling off assets with an eye towards the future may or may not cost the team a few games in playoff revenues?

The games were sold out in the Dark Ages. They will still be sold out. Loosing a few games of playoff revenue can be recouped.

 

[True Blue]

It just doesn't add up and make much sense..

I believe, and it is just my belief, that Sather is not ready to move on from him. I think Sather has found his pond hockey coach and as such, AV will have a very long leash. One that may well extend into next season.

 

[Mac n Gs]

The games were sold out in the Dark Ages. They will still be sold out. Loosing a few games of playoff revenue can be recouped.

I don’t think a year without playoff revenue is gonna hurt the most valuable franchise in hockey. If anything, they’d be hurting themselves by weakening their chances at rebooting and building a new group that’ll bring them another decade of success.