Player Discussion Jeff Gorton Part II

[True Blue]

I was a big Gorton fan until the TDA fiasco
I can;t stand Lou L and his dinosaur ways, but would Lou ever do something so stupid as to go on a press conference and announce to the world "tony has played his last game as a Ranger"

Now Gorton can't get a bag of pucks for TDA because of his stupidity
I dont know what hockey you guys watch but TDA was a huge huge piece of what the Rangers did last season
This season without him and you can see how inept we are offensively and on the PP
The rebuild has hit a brick wall because of Quinn and Gorton's handling of TDA

Tony? That you?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I was a big ADA proponent, and I agree that his play offensively was a catalyst for the Rangers often enough he was of value on ice.

I'll also agree the "played last game as a Ranger" was silly. I have no idea why they need to announce anything like that. (I'm not even sure why they needed a letter to rebuild, why not just do it?)

I'll my same question to you: why hasn't he found a new home, then?

Either:

1) The Rangers are being vindictive pricks. Rather than deal him, say taking on an expiring contract just to get rid of him, they decide to let him fester.

2) The rest of the league recognize he is tainted. A guy who has a history of character issues, who had largely under-performer prior to coming here couldn't make it work here (which is 100% on him) just doesn't have trade value. And whether JD/JG/DQ said anything about what happened or not, his value was low.

Yet even with that I have to come to a non concrete understanding that whatever ADA was doing must have been causing major issues, or else the Rangers would not have done what they did. I also believe the Rangers must have been trying pretty hard to move ADA before.

There are some things—whether you want to say personality quirks at best, character issues at worse—which teams won't overlook. Again, ADA's behavior is completely under ADA's control. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

My only remaining question would be why then did they go two years instead of just taking him to arbitration for a 1 year award? My best guess, they figured ADA was reformed enough they believed he would be worth more on the trade market with a two year deal, and/or they did not want to air the dirty laundry in an award hearing.

That's a fair question. My guess (and this is truly a guess) is they made a promise to ADA that when he signed his deal prior to last season they would talk about a multi-year deal at the end of that same season. His on-ice performance certain warranted it. Maybe the multi-year deal was framed up as: "This is us making a commitment to you with the understanding that you commit yourself to holding your tongue and not stirring the shit—like we've talked about before." And it done with the hope that it would get the chip off of ADA's soldier.

As far as the rebuilding hitting a wall, I'd put that much more on their insistence to try to accelerate the rebuild which has left the roster somewhere in the middle of "we have some expensive players who could compete in the playoffs, but they are aging, and we have a bunch of youth that is not ready for that" Which leaves them in the position of "what do we do now, build around the first group or second group?

I would argue that:

1) The rebuild has not hit a wall.

2) The team is being much more negatively effected by Zibanejad being terrible and the goaltending being inconsistent—two things that the powers that be thought were two things they could count on entering this season—more than not having ADA.

3) In addition to that, as much as some fans what to easily dismiss it, the two irregular seasons have had a huge impact on a team that is young and developing. Athlete's are creatures of habit and routine—both of which have been turned on its ear.

 

[TheDirtyH]

The good moves far outnumber the bad, or even the mediocre. Gorton has done a good job. "The Letter" was 3 years ago. We are less than 2 years removed from our first high draft pick.

2 years after their first high pick, the following teams were:

PIT: 4 years away, finishing .354
LAK: 3 years away, finishing .482
CHI: 4 years away, finishing .396
WSH: 14 years away, finished .427
TBL: 12 years away, finished .402

Even if we look at the most favourable scenarios, we are still 3-4 years away. We need to be patient.

PIT won the cup 4 years later. In between then they had Crosby scoring back to back 100 plus points seasons ( a third with 73 in 50, 1 119 pace), with an Art Ross and Hart added to his resume. Malkin with a Calder, a second place Hart finish, and a 100 point season. And by 2006-07, 2 years after that .354 season they were 100 point team. The next year they were Cup finalists.

LAK had a near ppg center in Kopitar (age 21-23), Doughty makes the all-rookie team before getting a 3rd place Norris finish as a 20 year old. And the next two years they finished with 103 pts and 98 pts (actually more than the cup year).

In CHI Kane and Toews finished 1st and 3rd for the Calder. Their record improved steadily every year until the cup. And it was only one year after Toews and Kane arrived that they were already a contender.

WSH: 14 years to win the cup, sure, but to be contenders? We all know what OV was his first two years even if the Caps were awful, and by the third they had their division locked up. The only thing between OV and a cup in 2010 was Jaroslav Halak, and they were serious contenders every year between then and 2018.

TBL, again, weird to go by winning cups. They made the conference final in 2011 and Stamkos had 2 40 goal (1 50 goal Richard winning) seasons as a 19 and 20 year old. They made the cup finals in 2015. They'd been consistent contenders since then. The one year they missed the playoffs, Stamkos played 17 games and they still finished with 95 points (same as the 2011-12 Kings).


Point is, all of those teams were contenders before they actually won so the 'years away thing' seems pretty skewed. You can only build a contender.
Second point is that all of those teams saw HUGE contributions from the young talent almost immediately. I am not down on Laf or Kakko but we have not seen that to this point.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Tony? That you?

No. It's Tony's Webster.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The timeline I used for each team starts with their first high draft pick (top-5) the same way ours started with Kakko 2nd overall in 2019. Below are the picks I consider the starting point comparable to the Rangers with Kakko.

PIT won the cup 4 years later. In between then they had Crosby scoring back to back 100 plus points seasons ( a third with 73 in 50, 1 119 pace), with an Art Ross and Hart added to his resume. Malkin with a Calder, a second place Hart finish, and a 100 point season. And by 2006-07, 2 years after that .354 season they were 100 point team. The next year they were Cup finalists.

Marc-Andre Fleury: 1st overall in 2003

(Probably could have gone with Whitney 5th overall in 2002 here)

LAK had a near ppg center in Kopitar (age 21-23), Doughty makes the all-rookie team before getting a 3rd place Norris finish as a 20 year old. And the next two years they finished with 103 pts and 98 pts (actually more than the cup year).

Thomas Hickey: 4th overall in 2007

In CHI Kane and Toews finished 1st and 3rd for the Calder. Their record improved steadily every year until the cup. And it was only one year after Toews and Kane arrived that they were already a contender.

Cam Barker: 3rd overall in 2003

WSH: 14 years to win the cup, sure, but to be contenders? We all know what OV was his first two years even if the Caps were awful, and by the third they had their division locked up. The only thing between OV and a cup in 2010 was Jaroslav Halak, and they were serious contenders every year between then and 2018.

TBL, again, weird to go by winning cups. They made the conference final in 2011 and Stamkos had 2 40 goal (1 50 goal Richard winning) seasons as a 19 and 20 year old. They made the cup finals in 2015. They'd been consistent contenders since then. The one year they missed the playoffs, Stamkos played 17 games and they still finished with 95 points (same as the 2011-12 Kings).

Point is, all of those teams were contenders before they actually won so the 'years away thing' seems pretty skewed. You can only build a contender.
Second point is that all of those teams saw HUGE contributions from the young talent almost immediately. I am not down on Laf or Kakko but we have not seen that to this point.[/QUOTE]

I added Washington and Tampa as comparisons of teams taking longer to win a Cup and in Tampa's case going through some rough years during the process.

The point is: Pittsburgh didn't start their rebuild with Crosby, he was one of their final pieces acquired high in the draft. Same goes for Toews and Kane for Chicago and Doughty for LA.

 

[TheDirtyH]

The timeline I used for each team starts with their first high draft pick (top-5) the same way ours started with Kakko 2nd overall in 2019. Below are the picks I consider the starting point comparable to the Rangers with Kakko.



Marc-Andre Fleury: 1st overall in 2003

(Probably could have gone with Whitney 5th overall in 2002 here)



Thomas Hickey: 4th overall in 2007



Cam Barker: 3rd overall in 2003

I added Washington and Tampa as comparisons of teams taking longer to win a Cup and in Tampa's case going through some rough years during the process.

The point is: Pittsburgh didn't start their rebuild with Crosby, he was one of their final pieces acquired high in the draft. Same goes for Toews and Kane for Chicago and Doughty for LA.

Why is the cutoff top 5? Wouldn't 2017 make more sense as the the start for us since we traded our 1C for the 7OA pick?

Also, the differences still remain. For one thing, these teams were competitive (at minimum) well before they won. Second, their young players were dominating almost from the getgo.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Why is the cutoff top 5? Wouldn't 2017 make more sense as the the start for us since we traded our 1C for the 7OA pick?

Also, the differences still remain. For one thing, these teams were competitive (at minimum) well before they won. Second, their young players were dominating almost from the getgo.

Trading for a high pick is not the same as having a high pick for a low finish. And the Rangers didn't send the rebuild letter until 2018.

The summer of 2017 was the furthest thing from a rebuild. They committed to Shattenkirk that summer. Top-5 was just was I consider a pick high enough to label a team as a rebuilder.

Either way, Barker in 2003 for Chicago (3rd overall) and Fleury in 2003 for Pittsburgh (1st overall) definitely make sense, right? I will give you LA, I guess.

 

[Off Sides]

I'll my same question to you: why hasn't he found a new home, then?

Either:

1) The Rangers are being vindictive pricks. Rather than deal him, say taking on an expiring contract just to get rid of him, they decide to let him fester.

2) The rest of the league recognize he is tainted. A guy who has a history of character issues, who had largely under-performer prior to coming here couldn't make it work here (which is 100% on him) just doesn't have trade value. And whether JD/JG/DQ said anything about what happened or not, his value was low.



There are some things—whether you want to say personality quirks at best, character issues at worse—which teams won't overlook. Again, ADA's behavior is completely under ADA's control. The tail doesn't wag the dog.




That's a fair question. My guess (and this is truly a guess) is they made a promise to ADA that when he signed his deal prior to last season they would talk about a multi-year deal at the end of that same season. His on-ice performance certain warranted it. Maybe the multi-year deal was framed up as: "This is us making a commitment to you with the understanding that you commit yourself to holding your tongue and not stirring the shit—like we've talked about before." And it done with the hope that it would get the chip off of ADA's soldier.



I would argue that:

1) The rebuild has not hit a wall.

2) The team is being much more negatively effected by Zibanejad being terrible and the goaltending being inconsistent—two things that the powers that be thought were two things they could count on entering this season—more than not having ADA.

3) In addition to that, as much as some fans what to easily dismiss it, the two irregular seasons have had a huge impact on a team that is young and developing. Athlete's are creatures of habit and routine—both of which have been turned on its ear.

I think you took my post as a pro ADA over the Rangers stance, yet that was not the intent. Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

I agree this is all on ADA, I disagree that he is a bad on ice player situational, or that the Rangers needed to make any declarative announcement. Sure people would ask why the Rangers did what they did and they could just have said what they always had in the past, something to the effect of he knows what he did. When they sent Smith or Redden to the AHL they did not make any declarative statements.

As far as why he can not find a team, he appears to be toxic, and he has a relatively large contract, plus the Rangers buyout situation plus the taxi squad addition this year favors them not having to make a trade. Once the relatively large contract part goes away through buyout, we will see if him not finding another team is all because he is what he is, or if the contract is playing a part.

None of that is to say the Rangers totally screwed this up, again I put this is on ADA, yet the idea that he was not a good enough player, or that the Rangers needed to say what they said, or that his contract may not be playing a part in possible trades, seems to be lacking context to me.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Trading for a high pick is not the same as having a high pick for a low finish. And the Rangers didn't send the rebuild letter until 2018.

The summer of 2017 was the furthest thing from a rebuild. They committed to Shattenkirk that summer. Top-5 was just was I consider a pick high enough to label a team as a rebuilder.

Either way, Barker in 2003 for Chicago (3rd overall) and Fleury in 2003 for Pittsburgh (1st overall) definitely make sense, right? I will give you LA, I guess.

I guess. It just seems like a stretch to say the Rangers weren't rebuilding in 2017, certainly by the 2018 draft (#9pick with 2 more in round 1). So for me, the timeline at the least starts a year before Kakko. I'd still say two, because the commitment to Shattenkirk doesn't really cancel that rebuild intent. In the same way signing Artemi Panarin (to the largest UFA deal ever?) doesn't set an end date on the rebuild.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I think you took my post as a pro ADA over the Rangers stance, yet that was not the intent. Perhaps I phrased it poorly.

I agree this is all on ADA, I disagree that he is a bad on ice player situational, or that the Rangers needed to make any declarative announcement. Sure people would ask why the Rangers did what they did and they could just have said what they always had in the past, something to the effect of he knows what he did. When they sent Smith or Redden to the AHL they did not make any declarative statements.

As far as why he can not find a team, he appears to be toxic, and he has a relatively large contract, plus the Rangers buyout situation plus the taxi squad addition this year favors them not having to make a trade. Once the relatively large contract part goes away through buyout, we will see if him not finding another team is all because he is what he is, or if the contract is playing a part.

None of that is to say the Rangers totally screwed this up, again I put this is on ADA, yet the idea that he was not a good enough player, or that the Rangers needed to say what they said, or that his contract may not be playing a part in possible trades, seems to be lacking context to me.

If my post came off as thinking you were pro-ADA, then I was the one who phrased their post poorly.

I think you and I are saying a lot of the same things.

 

[duhmetreE]

He's not going to eat any salary on ADA or cap dumps back, so I doubt he's moved during the season. He will be bought out more than likely and/or moved in the offseason.

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise... not all the non-sense that happened but Gorton and JD see the value in the cap. Even a player like Mika @ 5.35 is a tough/unlikely sell, we will have to eat some of his salary.

I fully expect Gorton to be shrewd with our RFAs. good.

 

[NYR]

IN WHAT WORLD IS THIS ACCEPTABLE, JEFFREY?!
YOU f***ING CLOWN!!!!

 

[Scott r]

After this loss, firings need to be in place. Team is getting worse

 

[Scott r]

Gordon a waste....

 

[ETTER DE]

JD brought Jarmo Kekalainen to St.Louis. Then to Columbus. He will be in New York soon. He is likely finished in Columbus.

 

[tailgunner]

Tony? That you?

after yesterdays debacle you still think having TDA sitting on the couch is the right move ?

I question the intelligence of some people on this board

 

[duhmetreE]

FIRE QUINN

 

[True Blue]

after yesterdays debacle you still think having TDA sitting on the couch is the right move ?

Dude, what is wrong with you?

Let's try to put this into terms that even you can understand. You claim to be a business owner who has 60 people working for him. You have ONE employee that keeps coming in and making loud statements about anything and everything. And that includes him believing that the world was flat and that the Mars landing was faked. And he continues to do this loudly, over and over and over and over again. And eventually that starts to rub some people the wrong way. And then they start getting into arguments, not so much about his views but that he simply cannot SHUT THE f*** UP. EVER. But they like him. And they take him aside and talk to him. But he continues over and over and over and over again. Loudly. So then the nearest manager talks to him because he is a good worker. But he continues over and over and over and over and over again. Then, whatever it is that you have under you, COO or CFO or what friggin' ever, talks to him. But before he does, he gets buy in from you or from whomever we want pretend is in charge of making widgets or mowing lawns or parking friggin' cars or whatever it is. So he speaks to said employee and tells him that enough is enough as people are coming to the point that they no longer want to work with him or frankly be on the same floor or grounds as him and this is the absolute last warning. BUT HE STILL CANNOT SHUT THE f*** UP. And continues over and over and over again. And then one day, when returning from mowing laws, he mouths off to a guy whose lawnmower broke midway through and was simply not having it. So a fight ensues, fully instigated by a guy THAT CANNOT SHUT THE f*** UP. Then the guy who CANNOT SHUT THE f*** UP and instigated the fight, almost gets into a fight with more employees as they are piling the lawnmowers into the garage.

Confidence building question here.......wait for it.........What is the person responsible for the good of the business going to do?

I question the intelligence of some people on this board

Phone is ringing. The kettle is on line two waiting to speak to you.

 

[haveandare]

JD brought Jarmo Kekalainen to St.Louis. Then to Columbus. He will be in New York soon. He is likely finished in Columbus.

Maybe we too will soon be lucky enough to ride a single playoff round victory as a sign of being a good team.

Columbus has accomplished remarkably little of actual value with him. JG is heads and shoulders better.

 

[JohnC]

after yesterdays debacle you still think having TDA sitting on the couch is the right move ?

I question the intelligence of some people on this board

Bro...remove the tongue from the bung

The 2023-2024 Rangers will lose a game and you’ll be crying that it’s because they sent Tony DeAngelo packing

Your obsession is bordering on unhealthy

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

after yesterdays debacle you still think having TDA sitting on the couch is the right move ?

I question the intelligence of some people on this board

Yesterday's loss doesn't change why he is sitting on the couch at home.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Bro...remove the tongue from the bung

The 2023-2024 Rangers will lose a game and you’ll be crying that it’s because they sent Tony DeAngelo packing

Your obsession is bordering on unhealthy

There's been an influx of shitposters that harp on 1 or 2 things incessantly and never have anything even remotely positive to say about the team or any of the players, and it's really making it a chore to look through these threads. Even having ignored most of them it's going to permeate other people's posts/responses that haven't ignored them and that may think there's going to be some honest discourse in replying. Grinds my gears ever so slightly.

 

[Harbour Dog]

We just started a rebuild through the draft in 2017. We got Chytil in that draft and he is only just now coming into his own. It takes time. Patience.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I was a big Gorton fan until the TDA fiasco
I can;t stand Lou L and his dinosaur ways, but would Lou ever do something so stupid as to go on a press conference and announce to the world "tony has played his last game as a Ranger"

Now Gorton can't get a bag of pucks for TDA because of his stupidity
I dont know what hockey you guys watch but TDA was a huge huge piece of what the Rangers did last season
This season without him and you can see how inept we are offensively and on the PP
The rebuild has hit a brick wall because of Quinn and Gorton's handling of TDA

Tony sucks

 

[tailgunner]

Tony sucks

Tony's stats last season

68 games 53 points and a plus 12

4th highest scoring d-man in the NHL

let that sink in a little