Player Discussion Jeff Gorton Part II

[NJRangers35]

LOL

ok so let’s get a new GM so he could do what exactly? Start a rebuild? Trade assets to try and win now? Doesn’t make any sense.

This is the youngest team in the league. Anyone who is expecting them to make waves this year hasn’t been watching.

I never said anything about making waves. I never complained about the rebuild or the current state of the rebuild. There are some moves that I am not a fan of.

The Ryan McDonagh and JT Miller Trade
The Eric Staal Trade
The Ryan Graves Trade
The Lias Andersson Pick
The Jacob Trouba Contract
The Brendan Smith Contract
The Kevin Shattenkirk Contract

There are still other questionable moves with the Kreider contract, all of the buy-outs, and the awful bottom 6 we roll out on a night in and night out basis. There are still questions on the Kravtsov pick as well.

Listen, I am not screaming lets fire Gorton. I understand where we are in the rebuild. He made some great moves like the Mika trade, the Fox trade, the Panarin signing, the Miller pick, the Strome trade, and the Rick Nash trade. With all of the good, there is a lot of bad on the resume as well. I know for a fact there are people on these boards who understand hockey better than I do, so I was curious to see their thoughts on Gorton.

 

[NJRangers35]

The good moves far outnumber the bad, or even the mediocre. Gorton has done a good job. "The Letter" was 3 years ago. We are less than 2 years removed from our first high draft pick.

2 years after their first high pick, the following teams were:

PIT: 4 years away, finishing .354
LAK: 3 years away, finishing .482
CHI: 4 years away, finishing .396
WSH: 14 years away, finished .427
TBL: 12 years away, finished .402

Even if we look at the most favourable scenarios, we are still 3-4 years away. We need to be patient.

I agree with the being patient part. I had no disllusion of winning a cup this year. but if we were to say we are 3-4 years away, were the kreider and planarian contracts the smartest to give out?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I agree with the being patient part. I had no disllusion of winning a cup this year. but if we were to say we are 3-4 years away, were the kreider and planarian contracts the smartest to give out?

Kopitar signed his 2nd contract with a cap-hit percentage of 12 in 2008, when they were still 4 years away from actually winning a Cup. Committing to players long-term isn't bad if they are the right players.

Chicago signed Hossa in 2009 and he helped them win 3 Cups over the next 6 years. That was 9.3% of the cap and he was 30. I doubt they regret it.

In 2012, the Caps had Ovechkin (13%), Semin and Bäckström (9% each) and it took them 6 years to win a Cup. Green at 7%, Laich at 6%. Those players helped them create a winning environment that ultimately won them a Cup.

Panarin is here until 2026, and maybe longer. If not, and it leads to us finally winning a Cup in 2028, Panarin may not be there but he will have been a part of what got us to that point. Panarin was a free agent. And the best one available in over a decade. It was a no-brainer.

Kreider? Meh. Never liked that extension regardless of where we are in our rebuild.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

If there's one area Gorton hasn't succeeded in is bringing some leadership in, like actual winners who can teach a team without a single stanley cup champ on it what it takes to win because this leadship group hasn't raised expectations for themselves let alone anyone else on the team and we can talk coaching change all we want but the level of expectations has to be pushed by your peers and this group isn't achieving that.

 

[LionsHeart]

I hate the Offensive Zone system. They’re constantly under pressure and are constantly pushed to the outside. If they don’t score off the rush they really don’t score at all.

 

[Off Sides]

The good moves far outnumber the bad, or even the mediocre. Gorton has done a good job. "The Letter" was 3 years ago. We are less than 2 years removed from our first high draft pick.

2 years after their first high pick, the following teams were:

PIT: 4 years away, finishing .354
LAK: 3 years away, finishing .482
CHI: 4 years away, finishing .396
WSH: 14 years away, finished .427
TBL: 12 years away, finished .402

Even if we look at the most favourable scenarios, we are still 3-4 years away. We need to be patient.

I'd be fine with being 3-4 year away, if they'd stop extending, signing, or trading for players that will be declining and still be under contract in 2-3-4-5-6 years, and also avoided those who just are not that good who end up carrying a giant cap hit.

 

[WAIVE BRODZINSKI]

LOL

ok so let’s get a new GM so he could do what exactly? Start a rebuild? Trade assets to try and win now? Doesn’t make any sense.

This is the youngest team in the league. Anyone who is expecting them to make waves this year hasn’t been watching.

Says the fan base of the Edmonton Oilers

 

[haveandare]

I agree with the being patient part. I had no disllusion of winning a cup this year. but if we were to say we are 3-4 years away, were the kreider and planarian contracts the smartest to give out?

I think so. You can’t just put a bunch of kids and cheap UFAs together. Kids need skilled vets to insulate them and help them build confidence. We extended some important vets for those reasons, and still got two hugely important early picks. That’s kind of an ideal outcome

 

[JimmyG89]

The good moves far outnumber the bad, or even the mediocre. Gorton has done a good job. "The Letter" was 3 years ago. We are less than 2 years removed from our first high draft pick.

2 years after their first high pick, the following teams were:

PIT: 4 years away, finishing .354
LAK: 3 years away, finishing .482
CHI: 4 years away, finishing .396
WSH: 14 years away, finished .427
TBL: 12 years away, finished .402

Even if we look at the most favourable scenarios, we are still 3-4 years away. We need to be patient.

This is a great explanation. We aren't even seeing all the fruits of the first draft of the rebuild fully. When your prospect pool goes from one of the worst to one of the best, it's going to take some time before you see the results of that.

Outside of Chytil (154 games played), we have not seen really any player drafted during the rebuild for a sustained period. Kakko has basically one full season under his belt now. Lafreniere is just starting his career. Kravtsov and Lundkvist aren't in the NHL yet. Part of that is Kravtsov needing time and Lundkvist not signing his ELC yet, but it has let these players grow. Kravtsov is likely making his debut sometime soon too, with Traktor likely being eliminated soon (unless they pull off a 3-1 comeback). Nils Lundkvist would be awesome to have now, but at the beginning of the season, he wouldn't have had a spot over Trouba, Fox, and DeAngelo. Miller just made the NHL this year and is learning, and people still were saying he should be in the AHL at this point.

You also cannot just throw all these kids in the lineup at one time. It's going to be gradual. On top of that, they've had players locked into deals that were either immovable or filled in spots as veterans. We are all looking forward to not seeing Smith and Johnson (previously Staal) not on the defense, but if they were not on the team, who is taking those spots? You could argue Reunanen would be in one of those spots, but is it better for him to be in the AHL right now getting adjusted to the North American game? Would people rather have Robertson on the 3rd pairing or letting him get a lot of time in juniors? We're already the youngest team in the league. How much more youth do we want to see?

The issue Gorton had was he didn't do this initially. Guys were thrown into the fire, especially the trio of centers (Chytil, Andersson, and Howden) they had. Chytil is the one guy that looks like he might thrive from that, but even he went to the AHL for a while and developed. It shows the importance of not rushing kids and I'm glad we're letting things unfold instead of rushing guys along.

 

[True Blue]

I hate the Offensive Zone system. They’re constantly under pressure and are constantly pushed to the outside. If they don’t score off the rush they really don’t score at all.

The roster if FAR from a finished product.

 

[Off Sides]

There is hedging their bets against being a really bad team, then there is signing Panarin, Kreider, Trouba for ~26M combined long term and still being a bad team.

 

[True Blue]

The issue Gorton had was he didn't do this initially. Guys were thrown into the fire, especially the trio of centers (Chytil, Andersson, and Howden) they had. Chytil is the one guy that looks like he might thrive from that, but even he went to the AHL for a while and developed. It shows the importance of not rushing kids and I'm glad we're letting things unfold instead of rushing guys along.

But Gorton did not have the luxury of doing it a different way. Only NOW are you seeing Hartford just start to be a feeder system. Which is why you you players like Barron and Reauanen marinate down there. There simply was no one else when Chytil came. Not unless you wanted to go out and get some sort of veteran retread for a couple of years.

 

[NJRangers35]

I also want to add the hiring of Quinn into the list of moves that I classify as bad

 

[Off Sides]

I liked Gorton better before JD.

 

[Peltz]

Panarin was a free agent. And the best one available in over a decade. It was a no-brainer.

Agree 100%. I don't even think there should be any controversy on this even if his scoring declines a bit in the next 5 years. He's such a versatile winger in every facet other than PK.

 

[NYR]

I liked Gorton better before JD.

I'm going to post this here too.
Hope you don't mind @tailgunner

barry beck said that JD was too busy to reply to his email about this dead teammate you are referring to which is basically what I am saying
that JD is useless and incompetent
how you cannot put 2 and 2 together makes you the fool

JD and Beck straightened things out via phone call after the fact.
That said..I love JD and he basically said straight up that he's not one to come in and just blow things up when he got here so he's giving JG a pretty long leash.
Also keep in mind the respect he has for Slats who hand picked JG.
That said x2.. It's only a matter of time until JG and this whole shit show gets shown the door.
Any GM can blow up a team and just tank it in order to get good projects but JG doesn't know how to build off of that.
He supplements a group of certain players with retreads to fill in huge holes in the lineup.
No defined roles.
No system.
Time to turn the page and build a new chapter in JD's vision..

 

[haveandare]

I'm going to post this here too.
Hope you don't mind @tailgunner



JD and Beck straightened things out via phone call after the fact.
That said..I love JD and he basically said straight up that he's not one to come in and just blow things up when he got here so he's giving JG a pretty long leash.
Also keep in mind the respect he has for Slats who hand picked JG.
That said x2.. It's only a matter of time until JG and this whole shit show gets shown the door.
Any GM can blow up a team and just tank it in order to get good projects but JG doesn't know how to build off of that.
He supplements a group of certain players with retreads to fill in huge holes in the lineup.
No defined roles.
No system.
Time to turn the page and build a new chapter in JD's vision..

Gorton played a pretty pivotal role in building the Bruins. What has JD done that makes you think he’s more fit to build a winning team?

 

[Off Sides]

I'm going to post this here too.
Any GM can blow up a team and just tank it in order to get good projects but JG doesn't know how to build off of that.

Actually Gorton was doing the blow up and aquire picks/prospects part just fine.

JD came in, talked about patience, next thing anyone knew the Rangers signed Panarin, extended Kreider, self rented Fast, traded for Trouba and gave him that contract.

 

[NYR]

Gorton played a pretty pivotal role in building the Bruins. What has JD done that makes you think he’s more fit to build a winning team?

JG made some good moves with the Bruins but also inherited some good players as well.
If he were so good there, why was he fired?

JD turned around the Blues and won a cup.
He also hired the right people and built a hell of a team in Columbus.

What has JG done?

 

[NYR]

Actually Gorton was doing the blow up and aquire picks/prospects part just fine.

JD came in, talked about patience, next thing anyone knew the Rangers signed Panarin, extended Kreider, self rented Fast, traded for Trouba and gave him that contract.

People have defined roles for a reason and JD is not the GM.
JG conveniently brought in DQ like a week before JD came into the picture.
This is JG's team until JD decides he had enough which I suspect will be the case at some point in the near future.
JG needs to go.. He sucks

 

[haveandare]

JG made some good moves with the Bruins but also inherited some good players as well.
If he were so good there, why was he fired?

JD turned around the Blues and won a cup.
He also hired the right people and built a hell of a team in Columbus.

What has JG done?

He brought in Kessel, Lucic, Marchand, Rask, Chara and Savard. Pretty key pieces for that phase of the Bruins team. He was fired by someone who hired Chiarelli, so I wouldn’t put a ton of stock into that being a smart decision making process.

JD left the Blues in 2012 and they made the conference finals exactly once since then before they won in 2019. Bruins won a cup and lost in the cup finals in that same window after Gorton. Columbus has a single first round win since JD took over there.

I hope JD has a lot of success here snd he has a nice resume overall but imo Gorton has been instrumental to building by far the best team of the ones either guy has been involved in

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

People have defined roles for a reason and JD is not the GM.
JG conveniently brought in DQ like a week before JD came into the picture.
This is JG's team until JD decides he had enough which I suspect will be the case at some point in the near future.
JG needs to go.. He sucks

Quinn was hired in 2018
Davidson joined in 2019

 

[True Blue]

Actually Gorton was doing the blow up and aquire picks/prospects part just fine.

JD came in, talked about patience, next thing anyone knew the Rangers signed Panarin, extended Kreider, self rented Fast, traded for Trouba and gave him that contract.

The Kreider contract, self renting of Fast and the Trouba trade all came before JD signed on. And were still the moves to be made

 

[Off Sides]

The Kreider contract, self renting of Fast and the Trouba trade all came before JD signed on. And were still the moves to be made

We are both off

Kreider extend Feb, 25 2019

JD hired May, 17 2019

Trouba trade June, 17 2019

Panarin July 1, 2019

Could put the self rent of Fast before or after, the kept before but let go after.

 

[bobbop]

I think Gorton has won more than he has lost.

In an election if 6 out of 10 go your way, that's a landslide.