Jason Botterill Discussion Part 5

[Myllz]

It's clear that Bott's plan revolves around this offseason given the amount of cap coming off the books & presumed turnaround of personnel which will likely go with it.

In this age of accessibility everyone wants him to be more vocal but to me it's obvious.

His moves in isolation (aside from the one obvious exception) have been done with solid reason.

This is the offseason he needs to be judged by. If the team is no better next season - this is the time to fire him if you have to.

There is no patience in life (let alone in sport) any more. This is to the detriment of most people.

Bott's was certainly not my choice for the job when he got it - but since he did get it - he needs to be given time.

The alternative idea of canning every GM every couple of years because they don't deliver instant success - IS one sure fire way to extend the drought for years to come.

Instant success is one thing, improvement is another. There's been no improvement in three years. You could even make a decent argument that the team has gone backwards in a lot of regards. Nobody's advocating firing him because he didn't deliver instant success, we're advocating firing him because there's been zero improvement in three years.

 

[Chainshot]

More and more I just want a GM with experience. Give me Shero for all I care. We haven’t hired a GM with previous experience since....ever?

Punch Imlach. So yes, basically since ever.

 

[sufferer]

Most times I read about Kim Pegula, the appointed "President for life," I get a chill running up my spine. I was reading that in recent NHL meetings, she was going around to other teams asking for advice on how to run her own organization. Does anybody think that any other teams want to help our team get better? So pathetic!

Then I read that she got appointed, with Gary Bettman as co-chair to spearhead an NHL committee overseeing diversity and inclusion. A place to give safehaven to whistleblowers.

It makes me retch that this woman is in charge of our organization, going around begging for advice and then being put in charge of a BS PC committee when she doesn't know what the hell she's doing running her own organization.

She and her husband Terry are clearly in the dark!

So a female president of a sports team, who is also isn't of a Northern European decent, seems like an ideal candidate for someone to work on a team for diversity and inclusion in the sport.

As for the bolded/underlined, if people did things that were racist/sexist/homophobic, that needs to come to light and those folks like Aliu need to be heard. The guy got the "difficult" tab and in an old-boys network like the NHL, that will dog someone forever even if it was warranted based on how he justifiably chafed at how he was treated.

Maybe Kim can pull some strings that'll land us Byfield. Trust the plan.

 

[Chainshot]

Instant success is one thing, improvement is another. There's been no improvement in three years. You could even make a decent argument that the team has gone backwards in a lot of regards. Nobody's advocating firing him because he didn't deliver instant success, we're advocating firing him because there's been zero improvement in three years.

Indeed. They haven't made incremental improvements or big improvements or any improvements at all that can't be attributed to physical maturation of a couple of players into their prime years. So much missed opportunity to make even small inroads and here we are, basically at zero for the last five years but with the small advantage of having prime Eichel and teen aged Dahlin. That? That gives me some small hope for the future if they can bring in someone who can start to build something around the two of them.

 

[EmeraldCitySabre]

Instant success is one thing, improvement is another. There's been no improvement in three years. You could even make a decent argument that the team has gone backwards in a lot of regards. Nobody's advocating firing him because he didn't deliver instant success, we're advocating firing him because there's been zero improvement in three years.

Exactly, and not only has there not been any improvement, but our roster management, which JB is responsible for, has now become a league wide joke.

 

[Member 308457]

So a female president of a sports team, who is also isn't of a Northern European decent, seems like an ideal candidate for someone to work on a team for diversity and inclusion in the sport.

As for the bolded/underlined, if people did things that were racist/sexist/homophobic, that needs to come to light and those folks like Aliu need to be heard. The guy got the "difficult" tab and in an old-boys network like the NHL, that will dog someone forever even if it was warranted based on how he justifiably chafed at how he was treated.

She doesn't know anything about sports let alone hockey. She's only there because she's Pegula's trophy wife.

The whistleblower committee is a bad idea. The players need to confront each other directly and this committee will encourage people to tattle on each other in secret and it could be used to for people to settle scores. Man up and confront directly. No secret closed committees please. Conduct things in the open.

 

[Hal2000]

Couldn't have said it better

Most times I read about Kim Pegula, the appointed "President for life," I get a chill running up my spine. I was reading that in recent NHL meetings, she was going around to other teams asking for advice on how to run her own organization. Does anybody think that any other teams want to help our team get better? So pathetic!

Then I read that she got appointed, with Gary Bettman as co-chair to spearhead an NHL committee overseeing diversity and inclusion. A place to give safehaven to whistleblowers.

It makes me retch that this woman is in charge of our organization, going around begging for advice and then being put in charge of a BS PC committee when she doesn't know what the hell she's doing running her own organization.

She and her husband Terry are clearly in the dark!

 

[brian_griffin]

Jesus, take some responsibility Jason. I would have more confidence if you at least acknowledged some of your mistakes are contributing to the problem. We need to feel that you'll do better. Ignoring your missteps does not instill confidence.

Botts is such an idiot. Reading that just made me feel ill. He's a clueless, big headed drag on this organization. I hate him.

I disagree with this. If the guy you hired, that's been on the job for 3 years and hasn't really gotten the team any closer to the playoffs (Sabres on pace for about 83 points, only 5 more than the year before Botts took over), then he's probably not the man for the job. I disagree with keeping someone around and hoping he'll get better in time, that's a pretty big gamble. If JB screws up this off-season, it could have long lasting effects for the franchise and we could be looking at a Bills style playoff drought. He's had 3 years and he's made far more bad moves than good ones, its time to cut the cord.

It's a situation where I'm done with him, too.

 

[Chainshot]

She doesn't know anything about sports let alone hockey. She's only there because she's Pegula's trophy wife.

The whistleblower committee is a bad idea. The players need to confront each other directly and this committee will encourage people to tattle on each other in secret and it could be used to for people to settle scores. Man up and confront directly. No secret closed committees please. Conduct things in the open.

And yet she is still a team president and the only female in that role (Alexandra Mandrycky is head of hockey administration for the Seattle team is the only other one I could think of). How she got there isn't as relevant as it is that she is there.

As for the committee thing, we'll have to agree to disagree. Direct confrontation is how guys like Aliu get word of mouth slander that directly impact their ability to find work in their chosen field. There has to be some recourse and if people have done things (and they have and that's coming to light) that are no longer acceptable in society, then there needs to be a process for it.

 

[EmeraldCitySabre]

Exactly, and not only has there not been any improvement, but our roster management, which JB is responsible for, has now become a league wide joke.

And of course right after I type this I see a story on ESPN titled "Why the Sabres are the NHL's biggest disaster". The writer rips some of JB's moves in the article as well.

 

[Buffaloed]

Vogl says Botterill can't wait until summer.
A look at some of the Sabres' ideal trade targets heading...
Oh, sure, he can wait from a hockey standpoint. The draft floor is where franchise-altering deals usually happen. But the Sabres still have 14 home games left, which is nearly 35 percent of the schedule. The organization has 4,000 tickets to sell most nights and wants to convince 15,000 people to use the tickets they already bought. Season-ticket renewals and deposits will be due way before Botterill heads to the draft, and inaction on the team’s part could lead to inaction from the fans and their checkbooks.

If Botterill waits until June and July to build a legitimate team, that will mean millions of dollars lost. Add in the anger that is giving way to apathy, and the time to do something is now.

We just got Frolik. What more do people want? It's not as if Bob Corkums grow on trees.

 

[OkimLom]

Most times I read about Kim Pegula, the appointed "President for life," I get a chill running up my spine. I was reading that in recent NHL meetings, she was going around to other teams asking for advice on how to run her own organization. Does anybody think that any other teams want to help our team get better? So pathetic!

Then I read that she got appointed, with Gary Bettman as co-chair to spearhead an NHL committee overseeing diversity and inclusion. A place to give safehaven to whistleblowers.

It makes me retch that this woman is in charge of our organization, going around begging for advice and then being put in charge of a BS PC committee when she doesn't know what the hell she's doing running her own organization.

She and her husband Terry are clearly in the dark!

It depends on what she is asking others' advice on. If she's talking to them about area to improve that have the impact of on-ice play, then sure, that's kind of ridiculous and bush-league. But if she's asking others for advice on bettering the off-ice stuff, like PR stuff or fan interaction ideas and advice on how to bring the public to the building/arena, then that's only a positive for the league and the state of the game (on-ice results withstanding). If she's working on areas and ways to make game day experiences and fan participation more enjoyable, that could only benefit the NHL.

Since when is giving a safe place for those that need to report issues of diversity and inclusion a bad thing? Especially for a sport and league where they are infamous for being an Old Boys Club. Report something that is "old school" or tradition that shouldn't be accepted anymore on one of the older members, and you're risking not only your job, but future career work in the sport of hockey. Hockey is one of the hardest sports to grow in communities. The NHL needs to accept means of growth, and relying on the old boys club to do so is not it.

 

[Tatanka]

It's clear that Bott's plan revolves around this offseason given the amount of cap coming off the books & presumed turnaround of personnel which will likely go with it.

In this age of accessibility everyone wants him to be more vocal but to me it's obvious.

His moves in isolation (aside from the one obvious exception) have been done with solid reason.

This is the offseason he needs to be judged by. If the team is no better next season - this is the time to fire him if you have to.

There is no patience in life (let alone in sport) any more. This is to the detriment of most people.

Bott's was certainly not my choice for the job when he got it - but since he did get it - he needs to be given time.

The alternative idea of canning every GM every couple of years because they don't deliver instant success - IS one sure fire way to extend the drought for years to come.

There is no reason behind any of his personnel moves. Had not the Canes , Hawks and lottery balls gifted him viable players, there would have been no discernible roster improvement at all. If his "plan" was to wait until 2020 then he should not have been hired. If you remember, Murray was supposedly sacked because he could not voice a response to how are you going to make this better ...Next Year? And we wait 4 for this guy to have room to move? And he set the team back with his ridiculous trade and acquiring cap dumps.

Oh and here is the kicker. 2020 is one of the worst UFA classes in recent memory. Nothing of any real value hitting the market. So what is he gonna do with all that cap? take on more useless dumps without corresponding productive players included like he has in the past? Over pay for shyte? Sell the good players like Reinhart and muggle along with the Vesey's, Sheary's and Wilson's he collected? It is the equivalent of someone planning on using their Christmas bonus to pay for holiday gifts, but the bonus comes in on the 24th and the shelves are empty when you run down to the 24 hour Walmart. Looks like little Suzie gets and torque wrench and little Tommy gets a homer Simpson t shirt and a case of 30wt. Fun times.

Waiting for the cap to clear when he had as much to do with the problem (Hunwick, Sheary, Skinner, Vesey, etc.) is not a plan. And for those thinking he will somehow be able to do things he wasn't able to do before what pray tell gives you confidence he can. He is a rube and the rest of the league knows it.

 

[debaser66]

After reading the interview (thx for posting the transcript Buffaloed)

It seems he seems to want to keep Montour... I am afraid that contract might be a bad one...

How informed is the interviewer that he has to ask if 6k already played?

No questions about the D logjam thats actively hurting this org on both levels

If I am the owner I would ask for step goals if someone comes with a longterm plan.
The intentions seem right but the execution is failing miserably

The lack of accountability he shows for his own actions seem to be reflected down to the ice level were vet players are gifted ice time despite the lack of performance.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

There is no reason behind any of his personnel moves. Had not the Canes , Hawks and lottery balls gifted him viable players, there would have been no discernible roster improvement at all.

The lottery was luck - granted.

The Skinner & Joker trades ? No - they were both steals for the Sabres - deals which the GM had to actively make.

The fact that you & others will go so far to spew this type of ridiculous BS just to fit your narrative ... It illustrates just how f***ing twisted discussion on this forum has become lately.

If his "plan" was to wait until 2020 then he should not have been hired. If you remember, Murray was supposedly sacked because he could not voice a response to how are you going to make this better ...Next Year? And we wait 4 for this guy to have room to move? And he set the team back with his ridiculous trade and acquiring cap dumps.

Murray was fired primarily because he would not sack Bylsma.

At that time I also believed Murray should have been given more time - for simolar reasons to Botts currently. This despite Murray making more actual bad trades than Botts & having seemingly less of a plan.

Oh and here is the kicker. 2020 is one of the worst UFA classes in recent memory. Nothing of any real value hitting the market. So what is he gonna do with all that cap? take on more useless dumps without corresponding productive players included like he has in the past? Over pay for shyte? Sell the good players like Reinhart and muggle along with the Vesey's, Sheary's and Wilson's he collected? It is the equivalent of someone planning on using their Christmas bonus to pay for holiday gifts, but the bonus comes in on the 24th and the shelves are empty when you run down to the 24 hour Walmart. Looks like little Suzie gets and torque wrench and little Tommy gets a homer Simpson t shirt and a case of 30wt. Fun times.

Waiting for the cap to clear when he had as much to do with the problem (Hunwick, Sheary, Skinner, Vesey, etc.) is not a plan. And for those thinking he will somehow be able to do things he wasn't able to do before what pray tell gives you confidence he can. He is a rube and the rest of the league knows it.

Stop being over sensational.

Cap can be used in many ways. It's arguably the biggest commodity in the nhl today.

UFA is never a good option to bank everything on & it's not possible to know years in advance which top tier guys will become available. So no - clearly that isn't his plan.

Mid tier guys like Johansson though? On sensible contracts? Guys who will never be your core but capable of being complimentary pieces? Yes.

Trades such as Sheary / Vesey were not cap dumps. They were low cost / low risk acquisitions which haven't worked. They aren't the type of franchise crippling moves some like to suggest though.

Suggesting Skinner is a cap dump sums up the ridiculous nature of this type of post perfectly...

The biggest long term dead weights on the cap though? Thank Bott's predecessor for those.

 

[sabrebuild]

There's a lot of people that feel that way. It doesn't make them idiots or shills for the Pegulas.

Sure, it could be something Bobby mac truly felt and just wanted to say without any outside prompting...

But would you put money on that or that he got a call from Botts' agent or someone connected with the team to try and throw up some positive coverage.

The point is to quit acting like this is grammar school and treat other peoples opinions with respect. If people want to disagree fine, but immediately accusing someone of having an ulterior motive doesn't promote intelligent discussion.

I mean that point makes a lot of sense for interpersonal posts or irl, but when talking about a media personality, who had an entire email debacle that shows he has enormous bias and hides it publicly, well then your point seems pretty blindly cliche and without merit.

Now if you have some reason to believe that Bobby Mac is trustworthy or an innocent purveyor of opinion, by all means attack sabremike's point

But otherwise it just sounds like you are telling a poster they can't post their opinions about something you think is wrong.

And that just doesn't feel very kosher. Then again, I barely understand the rules here anywho.

 

[Samsonite23]

I'm pretty terrified of an incoming big move. He has to feel like he's on the hot seat now. You would think he will try to save his job before doing nothing gets him canned.

 

[sabrebuild]

It's clear that Bott's plan revolves around this offseason given the amount of cap coming off the books & presumed turnaround of personnel which will likely go with it.

In this age of accessibility everyone wants him to be more vocal but to me it's obvious.

His moves in isolation (aside from the one obvious exception) have been done with solid reason.

This is the offseason he needs to be judged by. If the team is no better next season - this is the time to fire him if you have to.

There is no patience in life (let alone in sport) any more. This is to the detriment of most people.

Bott's was certainly not my choice for the job when he got it - but since he did get it - he needs to be given time.

The alternative idea of canning every GM every couple of years because they don't deliver instant success - IS one sure fire way to extend the drought for years to come.

This general idea of let the guy flounder for another year, to show he can do better.

Are there any successful franchises or gms that you can point to, where a gm failed as hard as botts has so far, was kept on and that turned into a long-term success?

I mean Pittsburgh has gone thru 3 gms since Crosby got picked and they have been successful the whole time. Chicago made a move as winners and continued winning.

Winnipeg bis your best bet, and one they didn't have any awful trade losses for no reason, and two they had like a two year window after a decade of slowly doing diddily.

 

[sabremike]

This general idea of let the guy flounder for another year, to show he can do better.

Are there any successful franchises or gms that you can point to, where a gm failed as hard as botts has so far, was kept on and that turned into a long-term success?

I mean Pittsburgh has gone thru 3 gms since Crosby got picked and they have been successful the whole time. Chicago made a move as winners and continued winning.

Winnipeg bis your best bet, and one they didn't have any awful trade losses for no reason, and two they had like a two year window after a decade of slowly doing diddily.

And Winnipeg had the situation where people were just so happy to have a team back that they had a ridiculous grace period.

 

[EmeraldCitySabre]

The lottery was luck - granted.

The Skinner & Joker trades ? No - they were both steals for the Sabres - deals which the GM had to actively make.

The fact that you & others will go so far to spew this type of ridiculous BS just to fit your narrative ... It illustrates just how ****ing twisted discussion on this forum has become lately.



Murray was fired primarily because he would not sack Bylsma.

At that time I also believed Murray should have been given more time - for simolar reasons to Botts currently. This despite Murray making more actual bad trades than Botts & having seemingly less of a plan.



Stop being over sensational.

Cap can be used in many ways. It's arguably the biggest commodity in the nhl today.

UFA is never a good option to bank everything on & it's not possible to know years in advance which top tier guys will become available. So no - clearly that isn't his plan.

Mid tier guys like Johansson though? On sensible contracts? Guys who will never be your core but capable of being complimentary pieces? Yes.

Trades such as Sheary / Vesey were not cap dumps. They were low cost / low risk acquisitions which haven't worked. They aren't the type of franchise crippling moves some like to suggest though.

Suggesting Skinner is a cap dump sums up the ridiculous nature of this type of post perfectly...

The biggest long term dead weights on the cap though? Thank Bott's predecessor for those.

Nobody's going to deny that the Joker and Skinner deals were really good deals, but what about all the other moves he's made that have been pretty lousy. I'd refer you to Jim Bob's post on page 23 of this thread that sums up JB's failures.

 

[Jim Bob]

Nobody's going to deny that the Joker and Skinner deals were really good deals, but what about all the other moves he's made that have been pretty lousy. I'd refer you to Jim Bob's post on page 23 of this thread that sums up JB's failures.

I hope the next GM's initials aren't the same as my username.

I sometime's read cracks at JB and take them personally.

 

[Chainshot]

The lottery was luck - granted.

The Skinner & Joker trades ? No - they were both steals for the Sabres - deals which the GM had to actively make.

Can you acknowledge that Bowman's pursuit of Nylander and Skinner's limited destination list was of tremendous benefit to the Sabres? That's what people are talking about here. Yes, the GM had to make the deals. In neither case were they things he had initiated. So his best two trade acquisitions came about through happenstance. That doesn't beget confidence in his abilities, when looking at the rest of his body of work where he has a free hand to do as he pleases.

The fact that you & others will go so far to spew this type of ridiculous BS just to fit your narrative ... It illustrates just how ****ing twisted discussion on this forum has become lately.

Are people really being ridiculous to point out the circumstances of the trades which have worked out in his favor and then wonder at why without those circumstances every other roster move he's made has been on a scale of monumentally bad (O'reilly) to just "why?" (Montour) without adding any long-term pieces to the team or moving it forward in any way?

Murray was fired primarily because he would not sack Bylsma.

The comments at the time were about communication as well. The guy had a hard time running a professional workplace and it showed.

At that time I also believed Murray should have been given more time - for simolar reasons to Botts currently. This despite Murray making more actual bad trades than Botts & having seemingly less of a plan.

That last point? Not buying it. We've broken those trades down and at this point we have people who are still upset about Lehner almost to a poster still mouthing that comment. He gave up a first for a guy who did win a Vezina - that's a good deal. What he didn't do is have the professional support for his guys off the ice to make sure that happened in Buffalo. That? That's one of Murray's biggest failures. But trades? Nah. He got a Vezina winner, a Selke/Hart winner, and a 20+ goal winger who plays a physical style in deals. The bad ones? List out what you don't like. I know the Deslauriers one still bothers me and his answer that he couldn't sign everyone made sense but him being blinded by Fasching's U20's has a strong resemblance to Botts being star-struck by Mitts U20's.

Stop being over sensational.

Cap can be used in many ways. It's arguably the biggest commodity in the nhl today.

Agreed. And what advantage did he use his cap for in his first two years on the job? He got suppression of one round worth of selection on a reclamation in Sheary by taking on Hunwick, who they then played over Beaulieu (and he sucked) and lead to Beaulieu actively wanting out. He tanked his own player's value through that. He gave up a third and a fourth to get Sheary, Beaulieu and Hunwick, paying the freight on Hunwick's deal, to be left with a 6th and we can hope something for Sheary at the deadline. Given how those players performed, Beaulieu's early season stuff last year is right up there with Sheary's "we'll always have the Pens games" sub-standard performance. Sobotka, Berglund, Vesey... even the Scandella/Pominville deal was predicated on the Wild needing space to sign players and him accommodating them. He got no advantage.

UFA is never a good option to bank everything on & it's not possible to know years in advance which top tier guys will become available. So no - clearly that isn't his plan.

Wait wait wait... we have been inundated with "wait until 2020" for three years now. And now, when it becomes apparent that warnings some of us have been making that the UFA classes are likely not going to be worthwhile as a cost-effective method of augmenting the roster and moves needed to be made for "core" type pieces and we were rebuffed with "wait until 2020"... NOW it isn't his plan? Come on. I call bullshit on this.

Mid tier guys like Johansson though? On sensible contracts? Guys who will never be your core but capable of being complimentary pieces? Yes.

Cool, but why are they plugging Johansson in out of position after signing him as wing depth? It blows up the idea that it was a good signing to not play him to his strengths and despite his two week run to start the season, he's overmatched in what he's asked to do. That's not a good look for the GM who put him in that position to repeatedly fail.

Trades such as Sheary / Vesey were not cap dumps. They were low cost / low risk acquisitions which haven't worked. They aren't the type of franchise crippling moves some like to suggest though.

Both of those deals were very much cap dumps by the Pens and Rangers respectively. The Pens were trying to rework other contracts and needed to make space which is why they were eager to move Hunwick. They'd also decided Sheary, after struggling both with and without Sid, wasn't the winger to retain while they spent cap elsewhere. As for Vesey... his cap money was part of what the Rangers almost immediately used in signing Panarin. In both cases, it was very much the Sabres taking on cap in the same way they did for the Wild.

Suggesting Skinner is a cap dump sums up the ridiculous nature of this type of post perfectly...

The biggest long term dead weights on the cap though? Thank Bott's predecessor for those.

Nope. Okposo is a useful player in a checking line role. He was an okay offensive player on a bad team prior to the near-death experience, but the guy responsible for soaking up $30 million of cap on bad players is Botterill. He's the maker of his own disaster.

 

[OkimLom]

The lottery was luck - granted.

The Skinner & Joker trades ? No - they were both steals for the Sabres - deals which the GM had to actively make.

The fact that you & others will go so far to spew this type of ridiculous BS just to fit your narrative ... It illustrates just how ****ing twisted discussion on this forum has become lately.

Someone comes to you with a player with 1 year left, that is in a situation where your team is the ONLY option that said player would waive their contract for, and you give up 4 assets, and inflate his value during a year which you are not actively being competitive and turn around and put YOUR back against the wall and in turn have to cave to a player because you HAVE to sign him because your team is just not built yet to be ready to be competitive. The smart thing to do would be to acquire him at the TDL, or approach him in the offseason and sign him to a more team friendly deal and save the assets if you really wanted. Sure Skinner, value wise for what he is, it was great value, but the lack of stocking back the picks you lost, and tying yourself to a guy JUST for goal scoring, when you look at the whole deal for team construction purposes, it's not THAT big of a steal of a move, which has HARDLY moved the needle in competitiveness and winning games.

The Joker trade I really liked, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the move.

Murray was fired primarily because he would not sack Bylsma.

At that time I also believed Murray should have been given more time - for simolar reasons to Botts currently. This despite Murray making more actual bad trades than Botts & having seemingly less of a plan.

Murray's "bad" trades actually had purposes to them unlike the "minor bad trades" that Botterill has done, and his biggest ones don't come close to the sheer franchise crippling move of THAT trade. Murray's plan was quite simple to see. You could actually see him having a type of player he wanted on his team.

Stop being over sensational.

Cap can be used in many ways. It's arguably the biggest commodity in the nhl today.

Yep, and it could be helpful when you are a seller to be able to take contracts from buyers on to sweeten the pot of the assets.

UFA is never a good option to bank everything on & it's not possible to know years in advance which top tier guys will become available. So no - clearly that isn't his plan.

Then he shouldn't be throwing around draft capital around like it's going out of style and not replenishing it.

Mid tier guys like Johansson though? On sensible contracts? Guys who will never be your core but capable of being complimentary pieces? Yes.

Good player to target, but the role Botterill envisioned for him and the purpose of bringing him in, was a terrible evaluation of the player by the GM.

Trades such as Sheary / Vesey were not cap dumps. They were low cost / low risk acquisitions which haven't worked. They aren't the type of franchise crippling moves some like to suggest though.

When those moves were the "MAIN" acquisitions of each offseason they were in, you want them to have a bigger impact than they have. Otherwise, you have a GM who looks lazy and incompetent of getting deals done.

Suggesting Skinner is a cap dump sums up the ridiculous nature of this type of post perfectly...

They were not saying Skinner was a cap dump, just that he was a big player in the current "over the cap" situation we are in, which you should understand because of the "It's arguably the biggest commodity in the NHL today" comment you made.

The biggest long term dead weights on the cap though? Thank Bott's predecessor for those.

Yep, it was bad deal.

 

[brian_griffin]

The lottery was luck - granted.

The Skinner & Joker trades ? No - they were both steals for the Sabres - deals which the GM had to actively make. [There is no evidence Botterill actively pursued either of those deals. In both those cases, the trade partner approached Buffalo. CHI wanted Nylander, BUF was able to pry Johikaru. CAR approached BUF because Skinner was only willing to waive his full NTC for TOR - which had no workable cap space - and BUF. Botterill was able to negotiate the deal in BUF's favor. Maybe that's actively making a deal, but I would characterize it as more passive acceptance. I'd love to have more of those trades happen because the other GMs seem to take the paring knife away from the 4 year old before Botterill cut himself.

In every other trade, Botterill has either overpaid, or got worse return value, or got poor value per cap dollar, or all three. In any/all cases where Botterill did not have clear leverage (#10 & #53 trades), he's been on the wrong side of "even trade, fair value, fair cap". Law of averages would suggest he'd have a couple on each side of neutral. He needs to stop actively making those kinds of trades.]

The fact that you & others will go so far to spew this type of ridiculous BS just to fit your narrative ... It illustrates just how ****ing twisted discussion on this forum has become lately.



Murray was fired primarily because he would not sack Bylsma.

At that time I also believed Murray should have been given more time - for simolar reasons to Botts currently. This despite Murray making more actual bad trades than Botts & having seemingly less of a plan.



Stop being over sensational.

Cap can be used in many ways. It's arguably the biggest commodity in the nhl today.

UFA is never a good option to bank everything on & it's not possible to know years in advance which top tier guys will become available. So no - clearly that isn't his plan.

Mid tier guys like Johansson though? On sensible contracts? Guys who will never be your core but capable of being complimentary pieces? Yes.

Trades such as Sheary / Vesey were not cap dumps. They were low cost / low risk acquisitions which haven't worked. They aren't the type of franchise crippling moves some like to suggest though.

Suggesting Skinner is a cap dump sums up the ridiculous nature of this type of post perfectly...

The biggest long term dead weights on the cap though? Thank Bott's predecessor for those.

I know you weren't replying to me, but see bold inserted above.

Also, Re: Compare and contrast of cap space and spend between Murray and Botterill...

Murray's big misses (overspends) were signing Okposo and (value-wise) Bogosian falling off a cliff.

Botterill's issues were taking players roundly recognized as bona fide dumps (Sobotka, Berglund, Hunwick) and overpaying Skinner given the dollarized value a full NTC should have carried. Given the trade commodity value of cap space, as you correctly note - which should be increasing given that both the NHL and NHLPA chose to let the CBA ride out as opposed to ending a year early, Botterill has not sought to establish that, let alone grow that. By not doing so, he's weakened his trade positions, RFA & UFA signing positions, etc. You can characterize Sheary & Vesey as low cost, low risk moves which didn't pan out. But, lower cost, and/or lower risk moves were available, and some of the actions Botterill took blocked him from that upside.

The Eichel contract was a year too soon (and it's reasonable that's more on Pegulas than Botterill), but given the way the market changed afterwards - i.e., star players on ELCs unwilling to sell UFA years, the Eichel deal is OK from a pure salary cap perspective, and in the hindsight of today may be one of the last 8-year 2nd contracts signed by top-tier talent.

Botterill didn't extend a >$4.0M QO to Lehner, so that's in his "good" column, but at some point you can't praise little kids for not staring at the sun, obvious behaviors are expected.

(The rest of your points I either agree with or don't disagree enough in nuance to be significant.)

edit: wasn't piling on, it seems a couple of us were compiling replies / posts simultaneously.

 

[Beerz]

I'm still in awe by how many people think Kim Pegula is involved in anything on ice related.