Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[joshjull]

Maybe my biggest frustration with the NHL is how hard it is to make a real blockbuster trade at this point. Every other major league has them regularly, but in this league, with all of these conservative, boring ass executives, it’s next to impossible. And the irony that there is such a thriving rumor market that these other leagues don’t have. It’s just the worst.

Are there big trades during the season of the other major sports? Not disagreeing just wondering how different it is in the NHL.

 

[OkimLom]

Well I guess that still confuses me. Kane isn't a possession player, and Reinhart is hardly one to make anyone miserable.

Reinhart was supposed to be a center for the possession player in the mold of ROR. It’s why it was important to get a guy like ROR in here. Reinhart was drafted to be a center not a winger.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Are there big trade during the season of the other major sports? Not disagreeing just wondering how different it is in the NHL.

Yeah I'm kinda looking at this the same way you are. I think hockey is more active if anything. Baseball has a lot of moves but many are the AAAA-AAA level.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Reinhart was supposed to be a center for the possession player in the mold of ROR. It’s why it was important to get a guy like ROR in here. Reinhart was drafted to be a center not a winger.

I don't really see misery in playing against Reinhart or RoR, but they're good players. maybe we're looking at these words differently. LA wasn't just a possession team, they were actually miserable to play against.

 

[sabrebuild]

Are there big trade during the season of the other major sports? Not disagreeing just wondering how different it is in the NHL.

Blockbusters are almost always offseason in every league. It's just common sense, most teams don't want the disruption, nor do they have the flexibility. Us and the Peg are the oddity, but the situation was very unique. I don't follow mlb much, but the nfl is by far the most boring league for trades and nba superstars are all moving in the summer.

Hall in nj looks like one of the few possibilities, due to his contract status and the Devils status team wise.

 

[OkimLom]

I don't really see misery in playing against Reinhart or RoR, but they're good players. maybe we're looking at these words differently. LA wasn't just a possession team, they were actually miserable to play against.

ask any player how much a pain in the butt it is to play against a Bergeron or ROR type player where he’s on you all the time, lifting sticks, taking the puck away, holding onto the puck until the last minute and cycling the puck while wingers are on top of you. Playing 18-20 minutes a game against that type of player and then having to contend another 18-20 minutes against a guy like Eichel who slows and speeds up the game on you.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

I'd like to have Botts PMD but with Murray's puck possession forwards.

 

[sufferer]

I don't really see misery in playing against Reinhart or RoR, but they're good players. maybe we're looking at these words differently. LA wasn't just a possession team, they were actually miserable to play against.

The idea is you have skilled guys like ROR and Reinhart and surround them with tough players instead cream puffs and then blame the actual skilled guys for not being tough enough.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

ask any player how much a pain in the butt it is to play against a Bergeron or ROR type player where he’s on you all the time, lifting sticks, taking the puck away, holding onto the puck until the last minute and cycling the puck while wingers are on top of you. Playing 18-20 minutes a game against that type of player and then having to contend another 18-20 minutes against a guy like Eichel who slows and speeds up the game on you.

Then why didn't he bring in or draft cycle wingers? Kane is a fast strong rush player; he's not a possession guy. Nylander is a sniper; he passed on actual big cycle guys. The bolded is basically Skinner.

 

[Chainshot]

I'd like to have Botts PMD but with Murray's puck possession forwards.

And Regier's ability to win trades, but with Murray's velocity. Toss in Muckler's desire for physical players to augment his skill guys and we'd have UltraGM.

 

[Chainshot]

Then why didn't he bring in or draft cycle wingers? Kane is a fast strong rush player; he's not a possession guy. Nylander is a sniper; he passed on actual big cycle guys. The bolded is basically Skinner.

Since we have derailed talking about Botterill's general lack of plan so you can dissect opinions on Murray: The conversation from some of the Canadian at the time of the Kane trade was that he would have a winger immediately to plug in beside McDavid (or Eichel) who could fill the role of both rush finisher and policeman. Having players who are "hard to play against" is not just about having aggressively imposing specimens. O'Reilly and junior Reinhart are very much hard to play against (and were in their times as a tandem under two different coaches in Buffalo). Not everyone in LA (or the good Sens teams or even further back on Anaheim for that matter) were killers, but they did have players who weren't afraid of traffic areas and they had players who were high-skill sprinkled around the lineup.

What plan is Botterill putting forward and executing?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

The idea is you have skilled guys like ROR and Reinhart and surround them with tough players instead cream puffs and then blame the actual skilled guys for not being tough enough.

That would be *checks notes* Alexander Nylander, Rasmus Asplund, and Brian Gionta? Maybe his UDFA collection: Nelson, ERod, Cal O' Antipin, Antipin classic? I'm not saying Botts has brought in bruisers. He's drafted Mitts, Dahlin and Cozens. But it feels like creating a narrative that didn't exist to suggest Murray actually was building this tough team and just wasn't given enough time.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Since we have derailed talking about Botterill's general lack of plan so you can dissect opinions on Murray: The conversation from some of the Canadian at the time of the Kane trade was that he would have a winger immediately to plug in beside McDavid (or Eichel) who could fill the role of both rush finisher and policeman. Having players who are "hard to play against" is not just about having aggressively imposing specimens. O'Reilly and junior Reinhart are very much hard to play against (and were in their times as a tandem under two different coaches in Buffalo). Not everyone in LA (or the good Sens teams or even further back on Anaheim for that matter) were killers, but they did have players who weren't afraid of traffic areas and they had players who were high-skill sprinkled around the lineup.

What plan is Botterill putting forward and executing?

He's bringing in puck moving defenders. Botts isn't doing a good job. Does that make you happy? Is that what you need to hear? Murray f***ed up and Botts hasn't done much better. I'll make sure to preface and close any and all statements about pre-2017 Sabres Hockey with "Botts isn't doing a good job".

 

[sabrebuild]

I don't really see misery in playing against Reinhart or RoR, but they're good players. maybe we're looking at these words differently. LA wasn't just a possession team, they were actually miserable to play against.

I don't think Reinhart is a misery to play against, other than tge occasional defender who gets embarrassed by a great pass.

But the misery of playing against O'Reilly is legit. Not in the sense that he will wreck you. But in the sense that he is mentally exhausting.

Guys like him, stick ninjas that are positionally sound are a nightmare, because anytime you are within a stick length of him, he is a threat. Defensively he can lift you, slash you or poke abd almost never get a call or miss sloppily. While he isn't a hitter, he still is a big guy and is difficult to push thru.

Offensively he is a possession beast. Too big to push around, too good of hands to let plays die easy. Even on our team with limited support he still created plays regularly, particularly on broken plays in zone, like the sick back hand he had after losing his helmet and battling thru 3 guys. In St. Louis, you saw over and over again how plays don't die with him. He battles for every loose puck, his hand eye lets him win a ton of 50/50 bouncing pucks.

Sigh.

 

[sabrebuild]

I'd like to have Botts PMD but with Murray's puck possession forwards.

It's what made the trade that shall not be named so insufferable. You already got the news of Dahlin.

All you had left was to pick up a few more depth forwards and d.


Sigh again.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I don't think Reinhart is a misery to play against, other than tge occasional defender who gets embarrassed by a great pass.

But the misery of playing against O'Reilly is legit. Not in the sense that he will wreck you. But in the sense that he is mentally exhausting.

Guys like him, stick ninjas that are positionally sound are a nightmare, because anytime you are within a stick length of him, he is a threat. Defensively he can lift you, slash you or poke abd almost never get a call or miss sloppily. While he isn't a hitter, he still is a big guy and is difficult to push thru.

Offensively he is a possession beast. Too big to push around, too good of hands to let plays die easy. Even on our team with limited support he still created plays regularly, particularly on broken plays in zone, like the sick back hand he had after losing his helmet and battling thru 3 guys. In St. Louis, you saw over and over again how plays don't die with him. He battles for every loose puck, his hand eye lets him win a ton of 50/50 bouncing pucks.

Sigh.

No lie, he might be the best player I've ever seen at picking passes out of the air in the neutral zone. RoR isn't perfect, and I think fast teams can expose him if his line can't compensate. Sadly I think the system Buffalo used while he was here maximized the one flaw in his game. And if I was him that would piss me off to no end too.

 

[sincerity0]

No, Murray had a plan, it just conflicted with Pegula's plan of firing Bylsma. Murray wanted to be patient and keep Bylsma. Pegula didn't.

his downfall was not having a replacement in mind for a potential firing of Bylsma.

There were leaks stating that at the year end meeting (before the firing) Murray and Pegula spoke at length at how the team was going to improve going forward. The reports essentially stated that there was no true plan. To me, I read that as either a loss for words or business as usual. Bylsma was a horrible coach, and if Murray wanted to die on that hill then fine — he did.

im not in these meetings but I can tell you this: “drafting and developing” players in of itself is NOT a plan. Every single team is drafting and developing young players. We are in year 7 or 8 of a rebuild. There are still incredibly massive holes on this roster.

With regards to Murray — if the plan was to continue as is, develop talent, and have Bylsma as the coach then he deserved to be canned. There were many reports that Murray/Bylsma were inconsistent regarding coaching and managing players, recall Reinhart oversleeping and the sat him on the bench the entire game to be embarrassed because they had injuries and couldn’t dress another fwd?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

There were leaks stating that at the year end meeting (before the firing) Murray and Pegula spoke at length at how the team was going to improve going forward. The reports essentially stated that there was no true plan. To me, I read that as either a loss for words or business as usual. Bylsma was a horrible coach, and if Murray wanted to die on that hill then fine — he did.

im not in these meetings but I can tell you this: “drafting and developing” players in of itself is NOT a plan. Every single team is drafting and developing young players. We are in year 7 or 8 of a rebuild. There are still incredibly massive holes on this roster.

With regards to Murray — if the plan was to continue as is, develop talent, and have Bylsma as the coach then he deserved to be canned. There were many reports that Murray/Bylsma were inconsistent regarding coaching and managing players, recall Reinhart oversleeping and the sat him on the bench the entire game to be embarrassed because they had injuries and couldn’t dress another fwd?

Botts isn't doing a good job

Agreed. Every team is looking for value at the draft. There's a main board topic about the Canadians being the worst team in the league for developing talent. Pretty much everyone seems to have the same complaints about their teams. Drafting teenagers is risky business. If they were older like the NFL you'd see more consistency.

Botts isn't doing a good job

 

[sufferer]

That would be *checks notes* Alexander Nylander, Rasmus Asplund, and Brian Gionta? Maybe his UDFA collection: Nelson, ERod, Cal O' Antipin, Antipin classic? I'm not saying Botts has brought in bruisers. He's drafted Mitts, Dahlin and Cozens. But it feels like creating a narrative that didn't exist to suggest Murray actually was building this tough team and just wasn't given enough time.

My point was more theoretical. Murray obviously failed in many respects, but building from that LA model is a lot more realistic than Pittsburgh/Chicago's given the personnel required.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't know that it's a "plan", but the idea of stocking up on the D-corps (which obviously needed help for a while), and seeing who ends up developing into the best 4 or 6 guys seems useful. D-men always take longer, so you can afford to wait on them and hold off on stocking up FWs until later. There's been just so little trade-able assets that Buffalo can afford to lose in order to acquire FW talent, that it's been frustrating to wait on that. Asplund, Thompson, and Cozens is a decent start that may pay off this time next season. Mittelstadt may even get on track, or at least be better as a W, if Cozens and Asplund impress enough to slide him over. They still need to find some Kreider/Tuch types IMO.

 

[Chainshot]

I don't know that it's a "plan", but the idea of stocking up on the D-corps (which obviously needed help for a while), and seeing who ends up developing into the best 4 or 6 guys seems useful. D-men always take longer, so you can afford to wait on them and hold off on stocking up FWs until later. There's been just so little trade-able assets that Buffalo can afford to lose in order to acquire FW talent, that it's been frustrating to wait on that. Asplund, Thompson, and Cozens is a decent start that may pay off this time next season. Mittelstadt may even get on track, or at least be better as a W, if Cozens and Asplund impress enough to slide him over. They still need to find some Kreider/Tuch types IMO.

Breaking trends here and responding to your post:

If the plan is to see who "ends up developing in the best 4 or 6 guys", then why are we seeing measurably bad defensemen given longer rope than others and why were they retained? Why was a measurably better defenseman sent down last year and left down this year without the appropriate action of selling off measurably bad defenseman at whatever market cost was over the summer when the internal improvement (the best 4 or 6 guys as you say) is in having the better players on the ice?

They have spent poorly on asset acquisitions at forward, mostly in who they have targeted as help when looking at who is or is not measurably a good forward. As a staff, their inability to locate and acquire decent NHL forwards is a trend. It also should give pause regarding who they are drafting and attempting to develop since the unifying element remains the GM who has set them to their tasks.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

My point was more theoretical. Murray obviously failed in many respects, but building from that LA model is a lot more realistic than Pittsburgh/Chicago's given the personnel required.

Botts isn't doing a good job

I don't think either of them should be building to some model. The team doesn't have enough value; they should be acquiring value whenever possible. Buffalo was far too under capitalized after their run of good finishes and poor drafting. The plan should have been to rebuild talent and figure out what to do with it later.

Botts isn't doing a good job

 

[OkimLom]

I'm going to answer these posts and be the end of it, as it's already gone away from Botts talk. If Mods want to move this to correct thread please do so.

Then why didn't he bring in or draft cycle wingers? Kane is a fast strong rush player; he's not a possession guy. Nylander is a sniper; he passed on actual big cycle guys. The bolded is basically Skinner.

See trade that brought Fasching and Deslauirers to the Sabres. As I have said previously, Murray changed course which did harm to the plan. He was far from a perfect GM, but at least the guy has a plan.

That would be *checks notes* Alexander Nylander, Rasmus Asplund, and Brian Gionta? Maybe his UDFA collection: Nelson, ERod, Cal O' Antipin, Antipin classic? I'm not saying Botts has brought in bruisers. He's drafted Mitts, Dahlin and Cozens. But it feels like creating a narrative that didn't exist to suggest Murray actually was building this tough team and just wasn't given enough time.

Gionta was brought in for a leadership role. He was a placeholder for the role on the team, and as a roster spot. Asplund is a tough player to play against. Nylander is a complement to the heavy wingers and puck possession players. The team wasn't going to be 100% the same type of players, but they would constructed to fit and complement each other very well with their skillsets. Shoot, we saw that during preseason play when Eichel and Reinhart was with Nylander.

I don't think Reinhart is a misery to play against, other than tge occasional defender who gets embarrassed by a great pass.

But the misery of playing against O'Reilly is legit. Not in the sense that he will wreck you. But in the sense that he is mentally exhausting.

Guys like him, stick ninjas that are positionally sound are a nightmare, because anytime you are within a stick length of him, he is a threat. Defensively he can lift you, slash you or poke abd almost never get a call or miss sloppily. While he isn't a hitter, he still is a big guy and is difficult to push thru.

Offensively he is a possession beast. Too big to push around, too good of hands to let plays die easy. Even on our team with limited support he still created plays regularly, particularly on broken plays in zone, like the sick back hand he had after losing his helmet and battling thru 3 guys. In St. Louis, you saw over and over again how plays don't die with him. He battles for every loose puck, his hand eye lets him win a ton of 50/50 bouncing pucks.

Sigh.

Reinhart as a winger is not hard to play against. But Reinhart as a center would be so much harder to play against because of his strengths in his skillsets. If Botts moved ROR and then put Reinhart at center, I would then feel much better about his direction of team. At least he would give the team a chance and it would be easier to stomach that trade. Then he did what he did, and well, that's where we are at. Imagine if Mittelstadt was given 3 years at wing learning at the NHL speed and getting accustomed to the league speed and size without the responsibility like Reinhart was. Do you think it would make the transition for Mittelstadt to be a center to be easier or harder?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Reinhart as a winger is not hard to play against. But Reinhart as a center would be so much harder to play against because of his strengths in his skillsets. If Botts moved ROR and then put Reinhart at center, I would then feel much better about his direction of team. At least he would give the team a chance and it would be easier to stomach that trade. Then he did what he did, and well, that's where we are at. Imagine if Mittelstadt was given 3 years at wing learning at the NHL speed and getting accustomed to the league speed and size without the responsibility like Reinhart was. Do you think it would make the transition for Mittelstadt to be a center to be easier or harder?

I have no clue why Mitts isn't playing wing while Reinhart plays center. Someone turn over the little plastic timer because my mind is honestly boggled.

 

[Chainshot]

Gionta was very much a hard working player that others did not playing against.