Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[KeyserSoze81]

Botterill's roster building has always struck me as aimless. The only direction has been to acquire as many puck moving defensemen as possible, even if they don't have roster spots. The moves just don't make sense in terms of building a team.

Murray was a riverboat gambler, but at least you could see a purpose and end goal. I have yet to see a purpose with Botterill in 4 years.

 

[FloridaSabresFan]

Twice now Botts has watched this team collapse. What is the doofus waiting for?

 

[KeyserSoze81]

Twice now Botts has watched this team collapse. What is the doofus waiting for?

More RD to become available?

 

[SundherDome]

Twice now Botts has watched this team collapse. What is the doofus waiting for?

Honestly, he should probably start selling.

 

[sabrebuild]

Byfield it is.

 

[mechaworm]

Twice now Botts has watched this team collapse. What is the doofus waiting for?

Lafrenière.

 

[FloridaSabresFan]

Lafrenière.

And after that? And after that?

What does it take for Botts and his big head to fix this?

 

[Chainshot]

Twice now Botts has watched this team collapse. What is the doofus waiting for?

Twice? He watched Phil's team struggle out of the gate and by the end of the first month is was evident that they needed help. And then his move was to nibble at the edges by acquiring Scott Wilson. This isn't someone who has shown an ability to craft a roster or set a direction. The only unifying element to almost all of his forward acquisitions is the futility of them.

 

[Chainshot]

Honestly, he should probably start selling.

No one has the cap space to take anyone on.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Botterill's roster building has always struck me as aimless. The only direction has been to acquire as many puck moving defensemen as possible, even if they don't have roster spots. The moves just don't make sense in terms of building a team.

Murray was a riverboat gambler, but at least you could see a purpose and end goal. I have yet to see a purpose with Botterill in 4 years.

That's the thing that bothers me the most. It's been 2 years, and I still have no idea what Botts' vision is...or even if he has one. Murray's Sabres may not have panned out on the ice quite like he'd hoped, but at least you knew what team he was trying to build. He had a team identity in his head, he had a coherent vision, and he was willing to make bold moves to assemble his team. He failed on a lot of fronts, but at least he came to the table with clear and complete idea.

 

[Chainshot]

That's the thing that bothers me the most. It's been 2 years, and I still have no idea what Botts' vision is...or even if he has one. Murray's Sabres may not have panned out on the ice quite like he'd hoped, but at least you knew what team he was trying to build. He had a team identity in his head, he had a coherent vision, and he was willing to make bold moves to assemble his team. He failed on a lot of fronts, but at least he came to the table with clear and complete idea.

It's been more than two years. He has done essentially the same thing every summer (acquire an available PMD and fringe forwards) for his entire tenure, then sit around during the season wondering why it isn't working.

 

[FloridaSabresFan]

That's the thing that bothers me the most. It's been 2 years, and I still have no idea what Botts' vision is...or even if he has one. Murray's Sabres may not have panned out on the ice quite like he'd hoped, but at least you knew what team he was trying to build. He had a team identity in his head, he had a coherent vision, and he was willing to make bold moves to assemble his team. He failed on a lot of fronts, but at least he came to the table with clear and complete idea.

What was Murray's vision? I saw no plan from him.

 

[Chainshot]

What was Murray's vision? I saw no plan from him.

He stated and made moves to land players for a heavy style - Kane, Bogosian, Kulikov, Stewart, even Deslauriers as examples - and believed in building down the middle - O'Reilly, Eichel, Reinhart.

That he didn't land well humans in many of his deals or that he had such a disorganized mess behind the scenes was his undoing.

 

[BuzzKillington90]

What was Murray's vision? I saw no plan from him.

Murray's plan was to stock the big club with talented top 6 forwards at the expense of the remainder of his assets. It was a plan that did not take player-role, fit, roster needs or long-term goals into account. So it was a short-sighted plan. It was flawed from the start

Botterill's plan, if you can call it that, seems to be to stockpile one position group and attempt to supplement the forward core with cheap, inexpensive, band-aids (The Rite-Aid brand, not the good Band-Aid brand ones) hoping that 2-3 people can carry the offense until he decides it's time (if he ever does) to stock the forward group with more talent. It's a long, long, long, long, long, long-term plan. It's also flawed.

Someone in the middle of those two, with an effing clue needs to step in.

 

[tsujimoto74]

What was Murray's vision? I saw no plan from him.

The 2014 LA Kings, basically. Heavy, grinding, hard to play against, with strong center spine.
Again, he obviously didn't succeed in building that winning team, but at least it was clear to me what a successful Murray team was supposed to look like.

 

[OkimLom]

What was Murray's vision? I saw no plan from him.

Well the type of team he was going for changed from 15-16 to 16-17, thanks in large part to Bylsma.

But overall his plan was: use 2014 draft for bodies in the AHL(was kind of a throwaway draft as they weren't Murray's guys doing the hardwork, as he focused on Reinhart being his first pick), then after that draft, he would draft players that had longer development paths, while acquiring NHL bodies for the team to be competitive with, while filling spots while prospects developed in their respective leagues. His primary goal was to fix/stabilize the main roster before focusing on the AHL as evident of him using the multitude of assets that he could spend and acquire. The player type was a focus on athleticism as well.

I think he was trying to focus on building a team that had the strength being the forwards more than the defense.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

If Murray was focused on a heavy team it doesn't quite square up. Kane was heavish, but RoR and Reinhart were projected to be similar players. Smart, strong position, two way players who aren't fast and don't really hit, basically S tier glue guys.

His draft picks weren't exactly heavy:

2014 - Reinhart, Lemieux is a rat, Cornel, Karabacek, Martin (RIP in Peace Brayden Point)
2015 - Eichel this is a nobrainer, Guhle
2016 - Nylander, Asplund [Murray & Hagel were heavy]

This notion seems to be a back-formation based on him trading for Kane, Bogo, and Fasching. But he also traded away Compher and Zadorov (who is basically what happens when you suplex meat stupid and teach it to skate). If that was an overriding strategy both Drai and Bennett were easy and defendable picks in 2014; to say nothing of someone like Logan Brown over Nylander.

 

[sincerity0]

That's the thing that bothers me the most. It's been 2 years, and I still have no idea what Botts' vision is...or even if he has one. Murray's Sabres may not have panned out on the ice quite like he'd hoped, but at least you knew what team he was trying to build. He had a team identity in his head, he had a coherent vision, and he was willing to make bold moves to assemble his team. He failed on a lot of fronts, but at least he came to the table with clear and complete idea.

ironically Murray was fired for not having a plan.

the point still stands though. Ultimately I sit here, years into Botterills tenure and struggle to see the team he’s trying to build. He’s acquired enough defensemen for two teams but Risto is still getting insane TOI. Forward is weak overall. We still struggle mightily with depth scoring.

He stumbled his way into Dahlin.

I believe one of the Pegulas faults as owners of both teams (and the Bills overall before them) was firing people quickly— never establishing a steady vision over the course of a few years with regards to team building and drafting.

Botterill seemed to have an outward talking point of building through the draft and letting prospects mature.. but then he trades ROR and pushes Mittelstadt into a huge role. They’ve cycled through about 2 dozen forwards in 3 years and most of them have been replacement level or worse.

now we are sitting here struggling again with about 15 NHL defensemen in the organization, hardly a top six, virtually no depth scoring, shaky goaltending, using LTIR to be cap compliant, and about 6 points out of a playoff spot and it’s not even December yet.

 

[Buffaloed]

The 2014 LA Kings, basically. Heavy, grinding, hard to play against, with strong center spine.
Again, he obviously didn't succeed in building that winning team, but at least it was clear to me what a successful Murray team was supposed to look like.

It wasn't the Kings. It was the team him and his uncle played a large role in building. The Kings copied the Ducks.
Bryan Murray 2001–02; head coach, 2002-2004; general manager for the Anaheim Ducks
Tim Murray 2002–2005: director of player personnel for the Anaheim Ducks

 

[SundherDome]

No one has the cap space to take anyone on.

Ain't my job, he needs to get creative.

 

[OkimLom]

If Murray was focused on a heavy team it doesn't quite square up. Kane was heavish, but RoR and Reinhart were projected to be similar players. Smart, strong position, two way players who aren't fast and don't really hit, basically S tier glue guys.

His draft picks weren't exactly heavy:

2014 - Reinhart, Lemieux is a rat, Cornel, Karabacek, Martin (RIP in Peace Brayden Point)
2015 - Eichel this is a nobrainer, Guhle
2016 - Nylander, Asplund [Murray & Hagel were heavy]

This notion seems to be a back-formation based on him trading for Kane, Bogo, and Fasching. But he also traded away Compher and Zadorov (who is basically what happens when you suplex meat stupid and teach it to skate). If that was an overriding strategy both Drai and Bennett were easy and defendable picks in 2014; to say nothing of someone like Logan Brown over Nylander.

Heavy meant in this way meant puck possession, grind you down type of game. It's not necessarily about an aggressive hitting team, but a team that leans on you and makes life miserable for the team while protecting the puck when they have it.

 

[stokes84]

Maybe my biggest frustration with the NHL is how hard it is to make a real blockbuster trade at this point. Every other major league has them regularly, but in this league, with all of these conservative, boring ass executives, it’s next to impossible. And the irony that there is such a thriving rumor market that these other leagues don’t have. It’s just the worst.

 

[OkimLom]

ironically Murray was fired for not having a plan.

the point still stands though. Ultimately I sit here, years into Botterills tenure and struggle to see the team he’s trying to build. He’s acquired enough defensemen for two teams but Risto is still getting insane TOI. Forward is weak overall. We still struggle mightily with depth scoring.

He stumbled his way into Dahlin.

I believe one of the Pegulas faults as owners of both teams (and the Bills overall before them) was firing people quickly— never establishing a steady vision over the course of a few years with regards to team building and drafting.

Botterill seemed to have an outward talking point of building through the draft and letting prospects mature.. but then he trades ROR and pushes Mittelstadt into a huge role. They’ve cycled through about 2 dozen forwards in 3 years and most of them have been replacement level or worse.

now we are sitting here struggling again with about 15 NHL defensemen in the organization, hardly a top six, virtually no depth scoring, shaky goaltending, using LTIR to be cap compliant, and about 6 points out of a playoff spot and it’s not even December yet.

No, Murray had a plan, it just conflicted with Pegula's plan of firing Bylsma. Murray wanted to be patient and keep Bylsma. Pegula didn't.

his downfall was not having a replacement in mind for a potential firing of Bylsma.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Heavy meant in this way meant puck possession, grind you down type of game. It's not necessarily about an aggressive hitting team, but a team that leans on you and makes life miserable for the team while protecting the puck when they have it.

Well I guess that still confuses me. Kane isn't a possession player, and Reinhart is hardly one to make anyone miserable.

 

[Buffaloed]

Maybe my biggest frustration with the NHL is how hard it is to make a real blockbuster trade at this point. Every other major league has them regularly, but in this league, with all of these conservative, boring ass executives, it’s next to impossible. And the irony that there is such a thriving rumor market that these other leagues don’t have. It’s just the worst.

Changes to the CBA have throttled trade and free agency activity.