Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[joshjull]

Gionta was very much a hard working player that others did not playing against.

If only we had just added him and few others like him with 1 or 2 years left. Then let the kids grow while adding more via the draft with all of our 1st and 2nd rounders. I doubt we would have been any worse than the teams we saw post Eichel draft and probably better in the last few years.

 

[OkimLom]

There were leaks stating that at the year end meeting (before the firing) Murray and Pegula spoke at length at how the team was going to improve going forward. The reports essentially stated that there was no true plan. To me, I read that as either a loss for words or business as usual. Bylsma was a horrible coach, and if Murray wanted to die on that hill then fine — he did.

im not in these meetings but I can tell you this: “drafting and developing” players in of itself is NOT a plan. Every single team is drafting and developing young players. We are in year 7 or 8 of a rebuild. There are still incredibly massive holes on this roster.

With regards to Murray — if the plan was to continue as is, develop talent, and have Bylsma as the coach then he deserved to be canned. There were many reports that Murray/Bylsma were inconsistent regarding coaching and managing players, recall Reinhart oversleeping and the sat him on the bench the entire game to be embarrassed because they had injuries and couldn’t dress another fwd?

Oh you don't have to sell me on how stupid the decision to keep Bylsma around was from Murray. His firing due to lack of wanting to fire him, was well deserved. It was, by far, his worst decision as a GM in the first place. You can make up for poor player/asset decisions down the line, but hiring a bad coach can set your team back years.

For the Sabres to endure 2 possible 3 poor coaching hires in a row is something that ruins a franchise. Imagine when you come to the realizations that they had 4 to possibly 5 in a row...Then, you have poor drafting history for quite few years in a row, and then you have 2 GMs who completely sell out and don't re-sign guys from previous regimes instead of trading them away to find your "type of guys".

 

[joshjull]

I have no clue why Mitts isn't playing wing while Reinhart plays center. Someone turn over the little plastic timer because my mind is honestly boggled.

Sam never really being given a run at center is still very hard to fathom. Particularly when you factor in Murray’s comments seeing him as a Toews or Bergeron type and that being the reason he drafted him

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Breaking trends here and responding to your post:

If the plan is to see who "ends up developing in the best 4 or 6 guys", then why are we seeing measurably bad defensemen given longer rope than others and why were they retained? Why was a measurably better defenseman sent down last year and left down this year without the appropriate action of selling off measurably bad defenseman at whatever market cost was over the summer when the internal improvement (the best 4 or 6 guys as you say) is in having the better players on the ice?

They have spent poorly on asset acquisitions at forward, mostly in who they have targeted as help when looking at who is or is not measurably a good forward. As a staff, their inability to locate and acquire decent NHL forwards is a trend. It also should give pause regarding who they are drafting and attempting to develop since the unifying element remains the GM who has set them to their tasks.

Like I said, I don't know that it's a plan. Either way, Pilut wasn't around when Scandella or Bogosian were added to the roster, and obviously guaranteed contracts have an effect on roster building. It's not a perfect process until all bad contracts are off the roster and if you can start from scratch with good players, ELCs, etc. My point in the post was, generally speaking - starting with D and building up FWs later isn't a terrible idea.

 

[joshjull]

ask any player how much a pain in the butt it is to play against a Bergeron or ROR type player where he’s on you all the time, lifting sticks, taking the puck away, holding onto the puck until the last minute and cycling the puck while wingers are on top of you. Playing 18-20 minutes a game against that type of player and then having to contend another 18-20 minutes against a guy like Eichel who slows and speeds up the game on you.

In theory this sounds great but for 3 straight season it wasn’t the reality due to the team around ROR/Jack.

 

[Chainshot]

If only we had just added him and few others like him with 1 or 2 years left. Then let the kids grow while adding more via the draft with all of our 1st and 2nd rounders. I doubt we would have been any worse than the teams we saw post Eichel draft and probably better in the last few years.

True, though the selling of the area was a major issue (and still is). Gio wanted to come back to WNY, even before he went to Montreal. The story about how he told his agent to call him with any offer Buffalo made and then Regier never even made an attempt? Still rankles.

Imagine if Regier had been good at drafting with a skeleton crew of scouts or could have turned up quality centers often enough that they didn't have to rush Gus or Greg O'Renko. Or had left Ristolainen in Finland a year or two to work on his game before bringing him over and setting the cement as an NHLer. Maybe this wouldn't have been the preamble to the worst decade in Sabres history that shows no signs of abating.

 

[OkimLom]

In theory this sounds great but for 3 straight season it wasn’t the reality due to the team around ROR/Jack.

I'm firmly aware of that. Just making a case of what Reinhart was drafted to be, and why that fit the direction of the team Murray wanted to build.

 

[joshjull]

There were leaks stating that at the year end meeting (before the firing) Murray and Pegula spoke at length at how the team was going to improve going forward. The reports essentially stated that there was no true plan. To me, I read that as either a loss for words or business as usual. Bylsma was a horrible coach, and if Murray wanted to die on that hill then fine — he did.

im not in these meetings but I can tell you this: “drafting and developing” players in of itself is NOT a plan. Every single team is drafting and developing young players. We are in year 7 or 8 of a rebuild. There are still incredibly massive holes on this roster.

With regards to Murray — if the plan was to continue as is, develop talent, and have Bylsma as the coach then he deserved to be canned. There were many reports that Murray/Bylsma were inconsistent regarding coaching and managing players, recall Reinhart oversleeping and the sat him on the bench the entire game to be embarrassed because they had injuries and couldn’t dress another fwd?

The Sam sitting an entire game fiasco was entirely a Murray production. He may have butted heads with Disco but thats not really what caused the situation.

Out of the blue with a month left in the season and 3 years into his tenure, Murray decided to change team policy on players being late to anything. He had a meeting with Disco about it and he (Disco) was on board. Murray Said at the time he had heard other teams did this and it worked. So he thought it would be a good idea to do it here. Yes it was that sad. It took him 3 years as a NHL GM to realize teams did this.

Murray wasn’t prepared for the possibility anyone would actually violate the new rule. So with no extra forwards and the new rule just recently in effect Sam sat entire game fully dressed. Why? Because he was 5-10mins late to a team morning stretch. Which of course the team didn’t say anything about at the time. So we had crazy speculation that Sam must have done something really bad since Kane wasn’t public embarrassed like this after the mess with the NBA All Star game. No one thought they would publicly embarrass a young star unless it was well deserved.

 

[SabresFan26]

I'm firmly aware of that. Just making a case of what Reinhart was drafted to be, and why that fit the direction of the team Murray wanted to build.

It was under Murray that he was switched to winger

 

[OkimLom]

It was under Murray that he was switched to winger

For development purposes. Like we should be doing with Mittelstadt.

 

[sabrebuild]

I'm going to answer these posts and be the end of it, as it's already gone away from Botts talk. If Mods want to move this to correct thread please do so.

Reinhart as a winger is not hard to play against. But Reinhart as a center would be so much harder to play against because of his strengths in his skillsets. If Botts moved ROR and then put Reinhart at center, I would then feel much better about his direction of team. At least he would give the team a chance and it would be easier to stomach that trade. Then he did what he did, and well, that's where we are at. Imagine if Mittelstadt was given 3 years at wing learning at the NHL speed and getting accustomed to the league speed and size without the responsibility like Reinhart was. Do you think it would make the transition for Mittelstadt to be a center to be easier or harder?

We just don't know regarding Reinhart. Maybe he would be. Maybe not. I need to see more of the Reinhart away from Eichel and the wing to even guess if he would be tougher.

I'm not sure what the reference is to Mitts. He was a much lesser prospect and has been a much lesser player. I would assume his offensive stats would be better if he was on the wing with Eichel or an O'reilly type. But today I see a guy who is a borderline nhler. He should have gotten another year at the U. Failing that, he should be on year two of Rochester, just rounding into form.

 

[joshjull]

Can we just stop sucking as an organization at some point? Pretty please

 

[Jim Carr's Rug]

Can we just stop sucking as an organization at some point? Pretty please

It's. f***ing. exhausting.

 

[Buffaloed]

Can we just stop sucking as an organization at some point? Pretty please

It Could Always Suck More
Save this one for a rainy day. If you feel like things just aren’t going your way, give 605-475-6964 a call. They’ll guarantee that just when you think you have it bad, it could always be worse. Costs a penny a minute.

 

[sabrebuild]

If only we had just added him and few others like him with 1 or 2 years left. Then let the kids grow while adding more via the draft with all of our 1st and 2nd rounders. I doubt we would have been any worse than the teams we saw post Eichel draft and probably better in the last few years.

I think this is where we all agree. If they had gone that route, they would have been tank worthy that first year, but long term it was the right move, because neither Jack nor Sam were ready for show time right away, like Sid and Geno or even Toews and Kane.

I'd love to ask Murray what he was thinking before the Kane trade. Like was he mistakenly of the belief that Jack was on McDavid's level? Did he think Sam was going to be a borderline ppg guy as a rookie?

Based on how upset he was at the lottery, i bet he knew the drop off was huge, but he was already locked into his plan. It's kind of funny, if we get McDavid and if Ennis stays healthy, they probably become Toronto before Toronto.

Ennis O'reilly McGinn
Kane McDavid Reinhart
Foligno Larson Gionta
Carrier Girgs Moulson

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, but if the lottery landed and and Ennis doesn't get broke.ififififif

That forward group is a great mix of skill and physicality. Eventually Moulson moves on. Maybe Okposo or whatever ufa happens.

But man the second you miss on McDavid, the breaks should been on hard for the Lehner deal at the minimum.

 

[joshjull]

I think this is where we all agree. If they had gone that route, they would have been tank worthy that first year, but long term it was the right move, because neither Jack nor Sam were ready for show time right away, like Sid and Geno or even Toews and Kane.

I'd love to ask Murray what he was thinking before the Kane trade. Like was he mistakenly of the belief that Jack was on McDavid's level? Did he think Sam was going to be a borderline ppg guy as a rookie?

Based on how upset he was at the lottery, i bet he knew the drop off was huge, but he was already locked into his plan. It's kind of funny, if we get McDavid and if Ennis stays healthy, they probably become Toronto before Toronto.

Ennis O'reilly McGinn
Kane McDavid Reinhart
Foligno Larson Gionta
Carrier Girgs Moulson

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, but if the lottery landed and and Ennis doesn't get broke.ififififif

That forward group is a great mix of skill and physicality. Eventually Moulson moves on. Maybe Okposo or whatever ufa happens.

But man the second you miss on McDavid, the breaks should been on hard for the Lehner deal at the minimum.

I was actually thinking from the minute Murray took over of not making any of the big trades. Sitting on the accumulation of prospects he had while adding even more in the 14, 15 and 16 drafts with the picks he had. Then surrounding those kids with quality character vets.

Idk, you might have to do some leg work to make me believe that hypothesis.

Darcy really did screw the draft and develop aspect of this franchise for basically the entirety post lockout. Myers being the only sorta exception.

When Girgensons and Zadorov are your top prospects going into a rebuild, its pretty much the bottom of the barrel.

When Murray took over .....

Our young forward talent

Flynn ———> 25yrs old (UDFA)(13-14 was 1st full NHL season)
Ennis ———> 23yrs
Hodgson —-> 23 (via trade for Kassian)
Schaller——-> 22 (UDFA)
Foligno ——-> 21
Larsson ——-> 21 (via trade)
Armia ———-> 20
Girgensons—> 19
Grigorenko —> 19
Compher ——> 18

No high end talent in this group. But thats the whole reason we were tanking in the first place. To get the high end talent. But a lot of quality depth including several options for bottom 6 center spots as well as depth wingers.

Our young defensive talent

Myers —-> 23yrs old
Ruhwedel -23 (UDFA)
Pysyk —> 22
McNabb -> 22
McCabe —> 19
Risto ——-> 18
Zadorov —> 18

Can’t blame Regier for the crap show our defense has been. He left us with a good amount young defensive talent to build a d-corp with. Then Murray just destroyed this group. At the time of his firing all we had left of those 7 dmen was McCabe/Risto and only two under contract he brought in (Gorges/Bogo).


Now add in the several 1st rounders and tons of 2nd rounders Murray was left. Murray had more than enough to work with outside of the two consecutive 2nd overall picks.


He initially added to it with a few more tear down trades that got another 1st and Carrier into the fold.

Draft Sam, Jack and hit on 1 or 2 of the other picks that got traded. Add a bunch of vets like Gionta with 1, 2 or 3 years left. Let the youth grow and suddenly have a ton young talent and depth throughout the NHL lineup and organization.

Not all the youth will work out or be able to stay. But I doubt that plan does any worse than what Murray attempted and keeps a lot more in house talent giving us a better situation the last couple years.

 

[sabrebuild]

I was actually thinking from the minute Murray took over of not making any of the big trades. Sitting on the accumulation of prospects he had while adding even more in the 14, 15 and 16 drafts with the picks he had. Then surrounding those kids with quality character vets.


When Murray took over .....

Our young forward talent

Flynn ———> 25yrs old (UDFA)(13-14 was 1st full NHL season)
Ennis ———> 23yrs
Hodgson —-> 23 (via trade for Kassian)
Schaller——-> 22 (UDFA)
Foligno ——-> 21
Larsson ——-> 21 (via trade)
Armia ———-> 20
Girgensons—> 19
Grigorenko —> 19
Compher ——> 18

No high end talent in this group. But thats the whole reason we were tanking in the first place. To get the high end talent. But a lot of quality depth including several options for bottom 6 center spots as well as depth wingers.

Our young defensive talent

Myers —-> 23yrs old
Ruhwedel -23 (UDFA)
Pysyk —> 22
McNabb -> 22
McCabe —> 19
Risto ——-> 18
Zadorov —> 18

Can’t blame Regier for the crap show our defense has been. He left us with a good amount young defensive talent to build a d-corp with. Then Murray just destroyed this group. At the time of his firing all we had left of those 7 dmen was McCabe/Risto and only two under contract he brought in (Gorges/Bogo).


Now add in the several 1st rounders and tons of 2nd rounders Murray was left. Murray had more than enough to work with outside of the two consecutive 2nd overall picks.


He initial added to it with a few more tear down trades that got another 1st and Carrier into the fold.

Draft Sam, Jack and hit on 1 or 2 of the other picks that got traded. Add a bunch of vets like Gionta with 1, 2 or 3 years left. Let the youth grow and suddenly have a ton young talent and depth throughout the NHL lineup and organization.

Not all the youth will work out or be able to stay. But I doubt that plan does any worse than what Murray attempted and keeps a lot more in house talent giving us a better situation the last couple years.

I don't think the wait and see plan would have been a bad plan.

I think Murray had plenty of opportunity to do better, and didn't create a good team by year two.

I'm not sold at all when I see the prospect list of what we had and traded and how it definitely would have been better. Between this teams track record of development and the actual success of most of these prospects, I think there is a good chance we don't get that much deeper.

The real benefit would have been at least one more top 2-3 pick. The addition of a Matthews or Laine would be enormous, before spending in ufa and trading some lesser assets.

The tough temptations would have been not stripping things as aggressively as Murray did during the end of the tank. McDavid is so good, given the opportunity, you have to give yourself the chance to get him. And that undeniably would have meant trading some quality pieces.

And not taking a run at O'Reilly would have been very difficult. He was literally perfect for us all the way until he boozed himself into THo's. Right age, right position, right skill, salary was fine. To not go after him would have been super human foresight to believe you would be better off to not have him and just go super young with the talent and old vet scrubs mixed in.

Bah, so many bad choices and bad luck in a decade. We are challenging the Oilers run of incompetence.

 

[sabremike]

People droning on about "character" and how this organization values it after the team watched some punk turn Dahlin's brains into oatmeal with an elbow to the head and did nothing about it is both sad and hilarious.

 

[Moskau]

People droning on about "character" and how this organization values it after the team watched some punk turn Dahlin's brains into oatmeal with an elbow to the head and did nothing about it is both sad and hilarious.

Character in NHL circles seems to just mean being North American or Swedish, making every team meeting and being an echo chamber for whatever the coach says in the morning media scrum.

 

[FloridaSabresFan]

People droning on about "character" and how this organization values it after the team watched some punk turn Dahlin's brains into oatmeal with an elbow to the head and did nothing about it is both sad and hilarious.

Just because they go on about character doesn't mean they have the character they want. They perhaps are trying to obtain it or reach that level but you are just assuming because they talk about it that it is some sort of hypocrisy.

Its not an overnight thing.

 

[OkimLom]

Just because they go on about character doesn't mean they have the character they want. They perhaps are trying to obtain it or reach that level but you are just assuming because they talk about it that it is some sort of hypocrisy.

Its not an overnight thing.

It's not an overnight thing, but how about 3 years? Is it a 3 year thing? Or is that too short of an expectation? EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, we are griping about TODAY was well known PRIOR to Botterill coming here.

 

[sabresandcanucks]

That 2014 draft haunts me to this day. Rumor has it Vancouver was offering a lot to move from 6 to 2. Including the 24th pick in the draft. We know Murray was high on Larkin...I love Sam, but there was the potential to walk out of day one with Larkin/Pastrnak.

Day 2 - Big swing and a miss. How many chances did we have to overlook Brayden Point? Christian Dvorak? Montour? Hell...would have been great to nab Demko early in the 2nd as well.

 

[BananaSquad]

That 2014 draft haunts me to this day. Rumor has it Vancouver was offering a lot to move from 6 to 2. Including the 24th pick in the draft. We know Murray was high on Larkin...I love Sam, but there was the potential to walk out of day one with Larkin/Pastrnak.

Day 2 - Big swing and a miss. How many chances did we have to overlook Brayden Point? Christian Dvorak? Montour? Hell...would have been great to nab Demko early in the 2nd as well.

I mean ya but that’s not how it works in 2014 lol. Hindsight is an amazing thing lol. Reinhart was going top 2 regardless who was picking that year

 

[sabrebuild]

I mean ya but that’s not how it works in 2014 lol. Hindsight is an amazing thing lol. Reinhart was going top 2 regardless who was picking that year

And every team including Tampa Bay missed on Point.

In a redraft, he and Draisatl go 1-2 in some order.

 

[truthbluth]

Fire this turd end message