Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Der Jaeger]

Skinner-Eichel-Olofsson
Hall-Mitts-Reinhart (or swap 37 and 23)

not bad, IMO

Butter soft

 

[hizzoner]

Butter soft

More like sour cream soft.....

 

[sabrebuild]

Im at the point where im trading every possible pick we have if necessary to get this roster to where it needs to be. We develop terribly

Honestly I don't look at this as a Sabres issue in particular.

It's more of a league issue. The success rates of different draft slots are terrible, particularly in regards to where you get star players and not just chubs that make nhl careers.

If are not picking top 5, more often than by drafting, a trade to an appropriate player will more often get you more prime nhl years than if you just draft and develop.

Look at a team like Pittsburgh. After years of winning and having late first rounders, they had interesting results. More hits with guys like Guentzel, Rust and Murray, and huge wins by trading firsts and freshly picked firsts like Kapanen to get Kessel.

The risk of trading this year's pick is obvious, but if you could land a big time player the exchange is likely worth it.

 

[sabrebuild]

Butter soft

Swap MarJo for Mitts and Girgs for Olofsson.

Creamy peanut butter soft?

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Honestly I don't look at this as a Sabres issue in particular.

It's more of a league issue. The success rates of different draft slots are terrible, particularly in regards to where you get star players and not just chubs that make nhl careers.

If are not picking top 5, more often than by drafting, a trade to an appropriate player will more often get you more prime nhl years than if you just draft and develop.

Look at a team like Pittsburgh. After years of winning and having late first rounders, they had interesting results. More hits with guys like Guentzel, Rust and Murray, and huge wins by trading firsts and freshly picked firsts like Kapanen to get Kessel.

The risk of trading this year's pick is obvious, but if you could land a big time player the exchange is likely worth it.

I was just sayin this about Vesey. Even though that one didn't work, we traded a 3rd for him. A 3rd rounder is like a 25% chance 3+ years down the line. We traded that for a 50% chance at an NHLer right now, not a bad gamble. Do that, but for non-crap players. Package picks with the parts you wanna move for young talent playing well at the NHL level. Scandella, McCabe, Vesey, Sheary, Erod, and Mitts are all available imo if the return is right. Throw picks at 'em and try to get 6ths and 7ths back just for sheer numbers' sake.

Example:

Kahun+7th for Vesey+4th.

Pitts probably doesn't go for that, but we'd be trying to trade our worst player for a guy who looks like he can provide somethin. Do that with all our spare/underperforming pieces and we should look much better.

 

[Kyndig]

I was just sayin this about Vesey. Even though that one didn't work, we traded a 3rd for him. A 3rd rounder is like a 25% chance 3+ years down the line. We traded that for a 50% chance at an NHLer right now, not a bad gamble. Do that, but for non-crap players. Package picks with the parts you wanna move for young talent playing well at the NHL level. Scandella, McCabe, Vesey, Sheary, Erod, and Mitts are all available imo if the return is right. Throw picks at 'em and try to get 6ths and 7ths back just for sheer numbers' sake.

Example:

Kahun+7th for Vesey+4th.

Pitts probably doesn't go for that, but we'd be trying to trade our worst player for a guy who looks like he can provide somethin. Do that with all our spare/underperforming pieces and we should look much better.

Anything after the 2nd round is a wing and a prayer pick. The stats might say 25% are NHLers but probably mostly fringe players you can get from waivers. The only one after the 2nd round on our team that I like is Olofsson and Miller..the rest just aren't NHLers.

 

[Fjordy]

He will probably week be discussing trade Rodrigues for Jankowski.

 

[Kyndig]

He will probably week be discussing trade Rodrigues for Jankowski.

I want to see Erod with Eichel again, they played well together in college and in the like 6 minutes of ice time together in the NHL they had something like a 90% corsi and 3 goals. Then Housley housleyed them apart. They can have Vesey though.

 

[Fjordy]

I want to see Erod with Eichel again, they played well together in college and in the like 6 minutes of ice time together in the NHL they had something like a 90% corsi and 3 goals. Then Housley housleyed them apart. They can have Vesey though.

Apparently Krueger does not want to, although maybe now he will try different options, given that the current lines do not work very well.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Anything after the 2nd round is a wing and a prayer pick. The stats might say 25% are NHLers but probably mostly fringe players you can get from waivers. The only one after the 2nd round on our team that I like is Olofsson and Miller..the rest just aren't NHLers.

Ya, the only reason I want any later picks is because a guy like Olofsson usually doesn't show up on waivers.. he's a rare gem, but overall agreed. I'd honestly say every year you should aim to trade your 3rd-5th rounders and maybe keep the 6th and 7th in hopes of drafting a late bloomer. Like, how much do the Sabres have to show for their drafts the past 10 years? Ok, what about the couple times they traded a pick? Lot more return on those.

 

[Tatanka]

I want to see Erod with Eichel again, they played well together in college and in the like 6 minutes of ice time together in the NHL they had something like a 90% corsi and 3 goals. Then Housley housleyed them apart. They can have Vesey though.

I want to see Erod in Cincinatti.

 

[Buffaloed]

Anything after the 2nd round is a wing and a prayer pick. The stats might say 25% are NHLers but probably mostly fringe players you can get from waivers. The only one after the 2nd round on our team that I like is Olofsson and Miller..the rest just aren't NHLers.

The 3rd round has not been kind to the Sabres.

Last 10 years
2019 Erik Portillo
2018 none
2017 Oskari Laaksonen
2016 Cliff Pu*
Casey Fitzgerald
2015 none
2014 Jonas Johansson
Brycen Martin
Max Willman
2013 Nick Baptiste
2012 Justin Kea
2011 Daniel Catenacci
2010 Jerome Leduc
Kevin Sundher
Matt Mackenzie

Notables (All Time)
2009 Brayden McNabb
2004 Andrej Sekera
2003 Clarke MacArthur
1997 Maxim Afinogenov
1986 Bob Corkum
1984 Ray Sheppard

*Cliff Pu fans will be happy to know that he's rediscovering his scoring touch with the Greenville Swamp Rabbits (ECHL)

 

[K8fool]

Botteril told the Pegulas this would be another lost season (which it is), but everything would be different next year when he had more cap room. The Pegulas obviously bought it. This is why Botteril speaks of improving the team "a little " this season.
Look for a token trade, a 3rd line nobody in the coming days.

.

Pegulas said clearly.. Now is the time to win. Stop tanking ? This late summer? Yours and his statementsv are at odds.. No biggie just don't know if pegula is disingenuous publically.. Or ( like u say and will be evident w 3rd liner and picks) botts told him this season was lost after he stated that and has a pass.. I have no idea but ... Ill pray to the new molech statue at the main hub to have a real trade go thru that gives current group a chance..if fact i dont see how he could get away with it and keep his job even if he is at beane level enamored..

 

[K8fool]

We should pay teams picks to develop players for us. We could loan Mittelstadt to a real team for a year and give them a free 3rd round pick. Our 2022 3rd round pick of course because we traded our 2021 for Jimmy Vesey.

We do.. Johansson skinner montour and Miller and the next one better help the team at the Skinner mojo level . overpayments with 2021 picks should recognize the limited shelf life and sanity of those suiting up for battle...

 

[debaser66]

Have fun in your last year

 

[FloridaSabresFan]

Have fun in your last year

Sorry to break it to you but it won't be his last year. He will get next year too.

He preached a plan to the Pegulas and the Pegulas are buying it.

 

[FloridaSabresFan]

The 3rd round has not been kind to the Sabres.

Last 10 years
2019 Erik Portillo
2018 none
2017 Oskari Laaksonen
2016 Cliff Pu*
Casey Fitzgerald
2015 none
2014 Jonas Johansson
Brycen Martin
Max Willman
2013 Nick Baptiste
2012 Justin Kea
2011 Daniel Catenacci
2010 Jerome Leduc
Kevin Sundher
Matt Mackenzie

Notables (All Time)
2009 Brayden McNabb
2004 Andrej Sekera
2003 Clarke MacArthur
1997 Maxim Afinogenov
1986 Bob Corkum
1984 Ray Sheppard

*Cliff Pu fans will be happy to know that he's rediscovering his scoring touch with the Greenville Swamp Rabbits (ECHL)

The Sabres never swing for the fences in the second and third rounds. They always take the safe pick and it always bites them in the ass.

 

[jputt99]

I don't understand why so many people are seemingly pushing the panic button and throwing Botts under the bus . Yeah , he got hosed on the ROR deal and we all want to see some kind of progress , but you can't just dump 10 or 15 players you don't like for a bunch of all-stars . Check the pre-season previews for the Sabres , I don't think 10% of the writers thought they'd make the playoffs . Starting 9-2-2 has obviously created an unreasonable expectation among the fan base . Did anyone expect the Sabres to continue earning 22 of a possible 26 points ? IMO , stability starts at the top , the players need a consistent message and need to know what's expected of them . Next year is Botts opportunity to prove he can build a competitive team . So far , this team is a work in progress and I think removing the GM or coach will only create more inconsistency .

 

[OkimLom]

I don't understand why so many people are seemingly pushing the panic button and throwing Botts under the bus . Yeah , he got hosed on the ROR deal and we all want to see some kind of progress , but you can't just dump 10 or 15 players you don't like for a bunch of all-stars . Check the pre-season previews for the Sabres , I don't think 10% of the writers thought they'd make the playoffs . Starting 9-2-2 has obviously created an unreasonable expectation among the fan base . Did anyone expect the Sabres to continue earning 22 of a possible 26 points ? IMO , stability starts at the top , the players need a consistent message and need to know what's expected of them . Next year is Botts opportunity to prove he can build a competitive team . So far , this team is a work in progress and I think removing the GM or coach will only create more inconsistency .

Expecting them to go 9-2-2, just like them going 10-0-0 last year wasn’t in the line for expectations, Sure, but seeing the team go 1-7-1 since, at this point, Shouldn’t be accepted by anybody just like going 17-33-8 shouldn’t have been accepted by anybody last season.

The Buffalo Sabres should have expectations of being a playoff contender with the top talent on the team. At this moment, they are just outside of the wildcard spot, with quite a few team nipping at them, and league wide, could drop down to a bottom 5 team spot on a bad night or bad week. They haven’t given me a reason to believe they can stay at this spot or higher, especially with the goaltending this GM has brought here. But they sure have given me every reason to believe we’re staring at a 26th Or worse position by Thanksgiving and later.

there’s zero reason why we aren’t competing. I’ve seen teams turn around the culture of their organization in a quicker timeline. Stop giving him excuses.

he’s had 3 offseasons to turn around 10-15 guys. To this year, he’s brought in 15 guys on the current roster that weren’t in the organization when he was hired(minis the majority of his prospects). And this team still continues to be bad. He has 13 guys on the last remaining year of their deals (7 are RFA).

 

[darcyRegier]

Look at what Vancouver has done. They kept their ROR in Horvat, name him captain, and he’s been huge in taking pressure off of Pettersson. Elias has now been able to grow and develop properly without unrealistic expectations of being the sole offensive producer.

Then they go and trade for JT Miller(whose been fantastic so far) to help out Pettersson, and brought really solid 2-way guys into their bottom 6. Their forward group plays with speed, skill, and heart. Hughes has been able to come into the league playing with solid veterans on the backend who can help him out, and he’s been awesome.

We’ve done the exact opposite of them, and here we are.

 

[Royisgone]

Skinner-Eichel-Olofsson
Hall-Mitts-Reinhart (or swap 37 and 23)

not bad, IMO

Butter soft

More like sour cream soft.....

Yeah, but that's just how Botterill likes it!

 

[joshjull]

I don't understand why so many people are seemingly pushing the panic button and throwing Botts under the bus . Yeah , he got hosed on the ROR deal and we all want to see some kind of progress , but you can't just dump 10 or 15 players you don't like for a bunch of all-stars . Check the pre-season previews for the Sabres , I don't think 10% of the writers thought they'd make the playoffs . Starting 9-2-2 has obviously created an unreasonable expectation among the fan base . Did anyone expect the Sabres to continue earning 22 of a possible 26 points ? IMO , stability starts at the top , the players need a consistent message and need to know what's expected of them . Next year is Botts opportunity to prove he can build a competitive team . So far , this team is a work in progress and I think removing the GM or coach will only create more inconsistency .

I agree with the bulk of your points. I’m also someone who has viewed the organizational clean up/rebuilding task in front of Botts as an enormous one. Having said all that, I totally I understand the frustrations being expressed and I’m starting to share them.

For me the frustration stems from looking back at this past offseason and reevaluating it. How it played out doesn’t make a ton of sense based on Botts own statements/team needs.

Botts statements after last season/before the draft were about an aggressive posture to address team needs up front. That he wasn’t going to let the defensive injuries (Pilut/Bogo) stop him from making moves (like trading Risto). That he was more than willing to use Bryson, Fitzgerald and Borgen to ride out things if needed to start the season. After the draft is when Botts makes his moves. The “bigger” moves in order; Miller trade, Vesey trade, Mojo signing and Joker trade.

In retrospect, the Miller trade in particular is head scratcher. In terms of team needs, a RHD 4/5 dman really wasn’t one. Its even more confusing when its the first move made after the GM just said he had no trouble using Borgen and Fitzgerald. Two kids who are RHD. The confusion grows even greater when we could have addressed a big hole in the roster by acquiring the other guy Vegas unloaded (Haula). Why didn’t we target Haula instead? It would have made the offseason a success and given us a much needed options with Haula and Mojo in the top 6.

The other thing that has me frustrated and confused is the 180 in tone and posture from Botts. We went from a willingness to use Bryson, Borgen and Fitzgerald to cover things on defense if a trade was made to “we can’t trade anyone because of how crazy the October/November schedule is”. That schedule was known at the time of his comments before the offseason started. What changed?

Botts strikes me at the moment as timid or overly cautious. That his comments before the offseason was just talk. That he wasn’t going to put himself in a situation where he had to rely on Bryson, Borgen and Fitzgerald to start the season or at all this year. The evidence of that is Botts actions making them our 11th, 12th and 13th dmen organizationally. It would take several trades and injuries for them to sniff a call up at this point.

 

[debaser66]

I agree with the bulk of your points. I’m also someone who has viewed the organizational clean up/rebuilding task in front of Botts as an enormous one. Having said all that, I totally I understand the frustrations being expressed and I’m starting to share them.

For me the frustration stems from looking back at this past offseason and reevaluating it. How it played out doesn’t make a ton of sense based on Botts own statements/team needs.

Botts statements after last season/before the draft were about an aggressive posture to address team needs up front. That he wasn’t going to let the defensive injuries (Pilut/Bogo) stop him from making moves (like trading Risto). That he was more than willing to use Bryson, Fitzgerald and Borgen to ride out things if needed to start the season. After the draft is when Botts makes his moves. The “bigger” moves in order; Miller trade, Vesey trade, Mojo signing and Joker trade.

In retrospect, the Miller trade in particular is head scratcher. In terms of team needs, a RHD 4/5 dman really wasn’t one. Its even more confusing when its the first move made after the GM just said he had no trouble using Borgen and Fitzgerald. Two kids who are RHD. The confusion grows even greater when we could have addressed a big hole in the roster by acquiring the other guy Vegas unloaded (Haula). Why didn’t we target Haula instead? It would have made the offseason a success and given us a much needed options with Haula and Mojo in the top 6.

The other thing that has me frustrated and confused is the 180 in tone and posture from Botts. We went from a willingness to use Bryson, Borgen and Fitzgerald to cover things on defense if a trade was made to “we can’t trade anyone because of how crazy the October/November schedule is”. That schedule was known at the time of his comments before the offseason started. What changed?

Botts strikes me at the moment as timid or overly cautious. That his comments before the offseason was just talk. That he wasn’t going to put himself in a situation where he had to rely on Bryson, Borgen and Fitzgerald to start the season or at all this year. The evidence of that is Botts actions making them our 11th, 12th and 13th dmen organizationally. It would take several trades and injuries for them to sniff a call up at this point.

Inaction is a term I would describe his tenure especially adressing problems in season altough as you stated his errors this year started with the Miller trade.
His biggest move was a blunder.
He seems always behind the curve.
He is probably more suited to be a behind the scenes development guy than a GM.
Similar to Housley not being a HC

 

[sabrebuild]

I don't understand why so many people are seemingly pushing the panic button and throwing Botts under the bus . Yeah , he got hosed on the ROR deal and we all want to see some kind of progress , but you can't just dump 10 or 15 players you don't like for a bunch of all-stars . Check the pre-season previews for the Sabres , I don't think 10% of the writers thought they'd make the playoffs . Starting 9-2-2 has obviously created an unreasonable expectation among the fan base . Did anyone expect the Sabres to continue earning 22 of a possible 26 points ? IMO , stability starts at the top , the players need a consistent message and need to know what's expected of them . Next year is Botts opportunity to prove he can build a competitive team . So far , this team is a work in progress and I think removing the GM or coach will only create more inconsistency .

If this was 2017, I think this post would be fairly sensible.

But you have to acknowledge new information.

These are mostly his turds, the guys you say he should turnover next year.

I get wanting to look at the bright side of things, but we are at year 3, 3 full offseasons of moves and the only positive contributors that Botts has brought in are Skinner, Marjo and Montour I guess, tho I'm not sure he is doing anything better than Guhle in Anaheim, which also cost a first, tho I'm told Botts is all about development and building through the draft.

I doubt firing him soon improves the team this year. They could get lucky, make a big deal and turn it around, but ehhh.

What we do know thru 3 years, is that there's not a lot of evidence to suggest Botts is capable of winning a big trade or creating a plan to build a competent team.

I'm curious, what makes you think he will do better than he did the last three years? Knowing factually that his cap issues this year are almost solely on him. And that the vast majority of players underperforming right now are guys he brought in?

Side note, at this point the draft assets used poorly are getting relatively high for a guy who just torched two seasons and this one ain't looking good.

Sheary/Hunwick -high third rounder plus 5 million in cap for two years on a hurt guy and a bum.
Miller- 2nd and 5th for a guy who is getting scratched, healthy.
Montour- 1st and Guhle, not a guarantee to even be better than Guhle, let alone a first.
Vesey- 3rd for a pending ufa who sucks.

I have heard plenty of silly arguments, like vesey and Sheary are here to buy time for all the young guys in the minors to get ready, ignoring the fact that there are no guys in the minors that fit that description. Even if we say that was really the plan, dumb as it is, does anybody really think you couldn't have gotten the same quality as several of these guys in ufa, at probably a lower cost?

I don't know, facts just don't seem to add up to rhetoric with this team at all.

 

[Moskau]

A 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th for Montour, Miller and Vesey are just as much of a waste of assets as anything Murray ever did.