Jason Botterill Discussion 2

[OkimLom]

Botts did a terrible job filling in around Murray's core. I agree.

And that the job he was hired to do, not perform a brand new rebuild.

 

[Sabre Dance]

And that the job he was hired to do, not perform a brand new rebuild.

Do we know that? His job might have been to rebuild a broken team.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Making bad trades does not help the team win. Culture does not win, talent and coaching win.

The trades were made when the Sabres were falling apart. I know Botts didn't do anything to help, but those players shouldn't have been that bad. There was enough talent to be better than they were.

 

[The Red Helmet]

Do we know that? His job might have been to rebuild a broken team.

Rebuild a broken team by breaking it more.... interesting, very interesting.

 

[Icicle]

So many miserable fans here. We had to watch Murray piss away all his assets for guys who can’t even make it into the league. Yet Botterill spends two years fixing the cap and depth situation entirely with almost nothing left to work with and somehow he is some huge failure that Murray never was? Oh, the ROR trade that is so terrible that the main piece, a 1st round pick, hasn’t even been used yet. ROR was a second round pick himself. Wooosh

If you don’t understand how deep of a hole Murray put us in, I guess I can understand why you think Botterill is no better. But there’s really no improvement between 67 and 87 point teams like some of you make it out to be. Those 87 point teams were even more hopeless than this last weeks worth of hockey. At least now the team has a future.

 

[OkimLom]

Do we know that? His job might have been to rebuild a broken team.

It was a broken team, not a broken core.

Surround the core guys with competent support scoring, and this team in a different place. Instead Botts does less than the minimum, hires a poor coach and the 2nd line center becomes the scapegoat because the players wanted to be competitive and the GM didn’t.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Rebuild a broken team by breaking it more.... interesting, very interesting.

Did anyone ever ask Botterill if trading O'Reilly made the Sabres better? You don't trade O'Reilly for nothing and believe you're competing. It was a tank move.

 

[sabrebuild]

Botts did a terrible job filling in around Murray's core. I agree.

Just out of curiosity how do you feel about Botts' alleged planned rebuilding of the core? Please correct any I get wrong.

Kane out Skinner in. Pretty much a wash
O'Reilly out Thompson and a first and a second some day and cap dumps....
And what Risto this summer after destroying the guy's reputation for two years in a row for something???
Montour in for futures?

I think that's it. Dahlin of course. Part of the plan with absurd odds. Heck, if Montour is core, should we ignore that we added him without trading a roster player and the team continued to decline with him?

Is it reasonable to say hiring Housley and keeping him for this long doesn't say something about Botts actual understanding of pro hockey and evaluation skills?

I don't want to grow with a young gm. I want a good gm regardless of age.

Tell me this. Forget the Murray drama. What would you grade Botts at so far, compared to average teams?

I don't see the known information that can make you think he is doing well.

By the way I agree that they should be better next year regardless of management, assuming nothing O'Reilly level is done. Dahlin alone will grow massively. The big question is how badly does management hurt that growth.

 

[Sabre Dance]

It was a broken team, not a broken core.

Surround the core guys with competent support scoring, and this team in a different place. Instead Botts does less than the minimum, hires a poor coach and the 2nd line center becomes the scapegoat because the players wanted to be competitive and the GM didn’t.

I don't know why they didn't feel O'Reilly was part of the solution here, but they did. Botterill will have trouble replacing him, unless he gets lucky in the lottery or trades important assets.

Coach IMO is all Pegula.

 

[OkimLom]

The trades were made when the Sabres were falling apart. I know Botts didn't do anything to help, but those players shouldn't have been that bad. There was enough talent to be better than they were.

Funny thing happened...the players traded away or moved on performed well when they were used by competent coaching.

It’s amazing the lack of blame Botts gets for hiring Housley, which has been the biggest reason for the team’s current situation, regardless of talent evaluation.

 

[MagnumForce2]

Did anyone ever ask Botterill if trading O'Reilly made the Sabres better? You don't trade O'Reilly for nothing and believe you're competing. It was a tank move.

So bringing in Skinner was a tank move also?

 

[Sabre Dance]

Just out of curiosity how do you feel about Botts' alleged planned rebuilding of the core? Please correct any I get wrong.

Kane out Skinner in. Pretty much a wash
O'Reilly out Thompson and a first and a second some day and cap dumps....
And what Risto this summer after destroying the guy's reputation for two years in a row for something???
Montour in for futures?

I think that's it. Dahlin of course. Part of the plan with absurd odds. Heck, if Montour is core, should we ignore that we added him without trading a roster player and the team continued to decline with him?

Is it reasonable to say hiring Housley and keeping him for this long doesn't say something about Botts actual understanding of pro hockey and evaluation skills?

I don't want to grow with a young gm. I want a good gm regardless of age.

Tell me this. Forget the Murray drama. What would you grade Botts at so far, compared to average teams?

I don't see the known information that can make you think he is doing well.

By the way I agree that they should be better next year regardless of management, assuming nothing O'Reilly level is done. Dahlin alone will grow massively. The big question is how badly does management hurt that growth.

Botterill has done a poor job. What else could I say? They've been one of the worst teams in hockey under his watch.

The question is was this a tank job or not? Did Botterill tank but not as public as Murray tanked?

 

[Chainshot]

So bringing in Skinner was a tank move also?

Touche!

 

[Sabre Dance]

So bringing in Skinner was a tank move also?

Yeah. They were the worst team in hockey. Trade out a quality #1 center for a wing. Add in a couple rookies. Small improvements, still a bad team.

 

[Chainshot]

Botterill has done a poor job. What else could I say? They've been one of the worst teams in hockey under his watch.

The question is was this a tank job or not? Did Botterill tank but not as public as Murray tanked?

I've said my piece on this previously: Botterill isn't trying to tank. Thinking he is some masterful tank0logist is just another layer of defending his incompetence.

 

[OkimLom]

I don't know why they didn't feel O'Reilly was part of the solution here, but they did. Botterill will have trouble replacing him, unless he gets lucky in the lottery or trades important assets.

Coach IMO is all Pegula.

Poor evaluation skills from Botts. 1st year I’m okay with. If you want to tank for dahlin im okay with that, but further action needed to be taken to correct the culture of the room. Botts could’ve done that. He then doubled down when he traded ROR. Again nothing addressed regarding improving the culture of the room.

 

[Chainshot]

Poor evaluation skills from Botts. 1st year I’m okay with. If you want to tank for dahlin im okay with that, but further action needed to be taken to correct the culture of the room. Botts could’ve done that. He then doubled down when he traded ROR. Again nothing addressed regarding improving the culture of the room.

The poor evaluation skills about NHL talent cut across veterans and youngsters alike.

As for culture, allowing veteran nepotism to live in the roster vs. icing the most competitive version of the roster on a nightly basis isn't going to win him fans in the dressing room. If he's trying to fix a broken room, make sure that what is said in public about accountability is what actually happens on the roster.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I've said my piece on this previously: Botterill isn't trying to tank. Thinking he is some masterful tank0logist is just another layer of defending his incompetence.

I think he's being patient with a bad hockey team. To me that's tanking.

 

[The Red Helmet]

I think he's being patient with a bad hockey team. To me that's tanking.

Being patient and not having a vision are not the same thing.

 

[flashsabre]

Regardless of Botts the individual, the Sabres need to continue to keep the amateur scouting dept. going strong as the last two drafts seem very promising and re evaluate the pro scouting dept. who have had trouble identifying pro players that can fit the system they are looking to play.

 

[sabrebuild]

Botterill has done a poor job. What else could I say? They've been one of the worst teams in hockey under his watch.

The question is was this a tank job or not? Did Botterill tank but not as public as Murray tanked?

Well you have said a bunch of things for the last several pages.... But I'm proud of you for admitting, its the first step in recovery.

As to your question, be honest with yourself and answer a couple questions.

Did you really believe before either Botts seasons, that the moves he had made before the games started had been detrimental to the team. In so much as to make the team significantly worse?

Assuming that you thought he had made improvements, how many of those moves were for players that were young and on long contracts?

If you are intentionally tanking you don't trade for Skinner, you don't trade for Sheary. You don't take back in theory high cap hit depth with 4 years of term for older players, you just get futures. You don't generally trade for a young player at the deadline with futures. I like Montour, but you paid a premium for him at a time when all he can do is ruin your "stealth" tank.

I get the preference for that option, I really do. At least then their is a plan and cause for these last two horrible seasons, but I'm sorry. The actions in sum don't make that case.

The plus side is we got incredibly rewarded with Dahlin. Hopefully we get another star in april.

But thats about the end of the pluses.

 

[Baccus]

The Botts was tanking and playing 3D chess is about as believable as suggestions that the current President is playing 3D chess. Though to be fair one of those two probably can't even play checkers.

So many miserable fans here. We had to watch Murray piss away all his assets for guys who can’t even make it into the league. Yet Botterill spends two years fixing the cap and depth situation entirely with almost nothing left to work with and somehow he is some huge failure that Murray never was? Oh, the ROR trade that is so terrible that the main piece, a 1st round pick, hasn’t even been used yet. ROR was a second round pick himself. Wooosh

If you don’t understand how deep of a hole Murray put us in, I guess I can understand why you think Botterill is no better. But there’s really no improvement between 67 and 87 point teams like some of you make it out to be. Those 87 point teams were even more hopeless than this last weeks worth of hockey. At least now the team has a future.

I'm not miserable, I'm tired and frustrated with watching a team I've followed for far too many years continue to be terrible, make terrible long term decisions and show no inclination of correcting the course. And now they don't even have the excuse of cheap ass ownership limiting what they can do.

Murray did not piss away all his assets, let alone for "guys who can't even make it into the league". Outside of the terrible Fasching trade, who are you even referring to here? Murray probably paid one asset (minor or not) more in most of his trades than preferable.

There was no real cap issue to fix, so Grats Botts! All the drafted prospects who may get a shot that have been Rochester this year are Murray picks. So how is the depth fixed? It's clearly not fixed on the NHL roster.

People complaining about Botts, are hardly saying Murray was great or not a failure, we're saying Botts isn't doing any better if not worse. If it wasn't for lucking into a Lottery win (which is what Murray was hoping for), how bad would this year's team be?

If you're playing the odds that the late first or even the eventual (2021?) 2nd round pick is going to turn in the the Next ROR, that's an incredibly bad bet. A far more likely bet is that all the assets we got for ROR cumulatively don't bring as much on-ice value as 5 years of ROR would have.

 

[Baccus]

Regardless of Botts the individual, the Sabres need to continue to keep the amateur scouting dept. going strong as the last two drafts seem very promising and re evaluate the pro scouting dept. who have had trouble identifying pro players that can fit the system they are looking to play.

They definitely need to keep scouting going strong.

The bad news is that they replaced quite a few of the scouts from the last couple drafts, so I'm not sure we really know where we are with our amateur scouting at this point.

I agree that our pro scouting probably needs to get in the line for being shot into the sun. It seems like a long line.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Being patient and not having a vision are not the same thing.

I don't think we can say that just yet. I'm trying to give him a chance. I really didn't jump all over Murray until his last season. I'll give Botterill another offseason.

 

[The Red Helmet]

I don't think we can say that just yet. I'm trying to give him a chance. I really didn't jump all over Murray until his last season. I'll give Botterill another offseason.

He had a chance and has done terrible. I don't need him sticking around f***ing things up for another year.