Jared Bednar Discussion

[Pokecheque]

I would have to disagree on this one…We would have been build like playoffs MTL atm or the Kings/Hawks when they won the SC imo.

Okay the Hawks were not built anything like the Kings when they won the Stanley Cup. The Hawks were built more like the Wings—highly skilled with some speed and among some of the smallest teams to ever win it all. The Kings were built with size (and also a lot of skill) with a strong defensive acumen.

The Habs are actually kinda small up front and have a big, physical defense on the back end. Roy would probably like that defense but I don’t know how much he’d like the forward corps. But either way it’s pure speculation as to how the Avs would be built under Roy apart from the fact that he tended to like big players.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Now that Montreal has indeed beaten Vegas... I think it should make Bednar's seat even hotter next year.

IMO the fact that even with a much better roster then Montreal we couldn't beat Vegas, more of the blame shifts to the coaching staff and our inability to better plan for what they were going to do and adjust to the adjustments they made quicker.


I think he deserves another chance and an opportunity to work with whatever the new roster we have for next season is... Perhaps if Joe goes out and adds a few more physically involved players for the bottom 6 and bottom D pairing, maybe Bednar will made adjustments to incorporate that style of play into our systems better.


But, he'd be on a fairly short leash for me and if the season doesn't start off great I'd be looking to make a change.

 

[kl35ha]

Okay the Hawks were not built anything like the Kings when they won the Stanley Cup. The Hawks were built more like the Wings—highly skilled with some speed and among some of the smallest teams to ever win it all. The Kings were built with size (and also a lot of skill) with a strong defensive acumen.

The Habs are actually kinda small up front and have a big, physical defense on the back end. Roy would probably like that defense but I don’t know how much he’d like the forward corps. But either way it’s pure speculation as to how the Avs would be built under Roy apart from the fact that he tended to like big players.

Having big Buff was all the Hawks needed…as I remember they also had a couple of gritty players in the bottom six.

 

[Tweaky]

Having big Buff was all the Hawks needed…as I remember they also had a couple of gritty players in the bottom six.

You realize that Buff was only on the 2010 Cup team, right?

The only defenseman that was at/over 100kg on the '13 and '15 squads with any playoff games was Seabrook, and he is exactly 100kg. The next heaviest D was Rozsival at 95kg (and in '15 played under half the PO games), then Leddy at 94kg ('13 only) and for '15 the 3rd heaviest D was Hammer at 89kg.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

You realize that Buff was only on the 2010 Cup team, right?

The only defenseman that was at/over 100kg on the '13 and '15 squads with any playoff games was Seabrook, and he is exactly 100kg. The next heaviest D was Rozsival at 95kg (and in '15 played under half the PO games), then Leddy at 94kg ('13 only) and for '15 the 3rd heaviest D was Hammer at 89kg.

Did Buff even play defense on that Hawk team that won the cup. For some reason I remember him playing forward that year.

 

[Tweaky]

Did Buff even play defense on that Hawk team that won the cup. For some reason I remember him playing forward that year.

You might be right. eliteprospects lists him as D for that season, but I am not sure they are set up to show W/D as an option. They have multiple F positions, but I am not seeing any D+F.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

You might be right. eliteprospects lists him as D for that season, but I am not sure they are set up to show W/D as an option. They have multiple F positions, but I am not seeing any D+F.

hockeyreference.com has Buf as a forward the year before but as a D the year they won the cup. I think he may have played a lot of F during the playoffs though. It's been a while so my memory may not be 100% accurate.

 

[Tweaky]

11 years ago, for a team I don't follow closely. Although I was big into fantasy hockey at the time, so tried to grab him as a D while he racked up points as a winger...but remembering which years that was valid...no idea.

 

[Muffin]

Now that Montreal has indeed beaten Vegas... I think it should make Bednar's seat even hotter next year.

IMO the fact that even with a much better roster then Montreal we couldn't beat Vegas, more of the blame shifts to the coaching staff and our inability to better plan for what they were going to do and adjust to the adjustments they made quicker.


I think he deserves another chance and an opportunity to work with whatever the new roster we have for next season is... Perhaps if Joe goes out and adds a few more physically involved players for the bottom 6 and bottom D pairing, maybe Bednar will made adjustments to incorporate that style of play into our systems better.


But, he'd be on a fairly short leash for me and if the season doesn't start off great I'd be looking to make a change.

Bednar has to take some blame for the way the team played in games 2-4 in the Vegas series. It’s unacceptable to play that poorly for three straight games.

 

[CalderKing21]

Now that Montreal has indeed beaten Vegas... I think it should make Bednar's seat even hotter next year.

IMO the fact that even with a much better roster then Montreal we couldn't beat Vegas, more of the blame shifts to the coaching staff and our inability to better plan for what they were going to do and adjust to the adjustments they made quicker.


I think he deserves another chance and an opportunity to work with whatever the new roster we have for next season is... Perhaps if Joe goes out and adds a few more physically involved players for the bottom 6 and bottom D pairing, maybe Bednar will made adjustments to incorporate that style of play into our systems better.


But, he'd be on a fairly short leash for me and if the season doesn't start off great I'd be looking to make a change.

Montreal beating Vegas has nothing to do with Bednar's hot seat. He's going to be on the same level of hot seat next year regardless of what Montreal or Vegas did in the conference finals.
The Avs have holes to fill and needs to address, until that happens, we are going to be the early Ovi Caps that can't quite get over the hump.

Montreal got hot, Caufield has put up some big time numbers and Price is a stud. You need a lot of things to break right during a Stanley cup playoff to get to the finals and eventually hoist the cup.
Bednar has taken flack and it's entirely fair for him to. Firing him is not going to magically fix the depth issues at C or the need for a more physical defense.

 

[dahrougem2]

hockeyreference.com has Buf as a forward the year before but as a D the year they won the cup. I think he may have played a lot of F during the playoffs though. It's been a while so my memory may not be 100% accurate.

Byfuglien almost exclusively played forward in the playoffs on a line with Jonathan Toews.

 

[Nihiliste]

Did Buff even play defense on that Hawk team that won the cup. For some reason I remember him playing forward that year.

Buff played forward that year and him injuring Pronger on a massive hit partway through that final series is what finally tipped the scales for them

 

[jabubenice]

Now that Montreal has indeed beaten Vegas... I think it should make Bednar's seat even hotter next year.

IMO the fact that even with a much better roster then Montreal we couldn't beat Vegas, more of the blame shifts to the coaching staff and our inability to better plan for what they were going to do and adjust to the adjustments they made quicker.


I think he deserves another chance and an opportunity to work with whatever the new roster we have for next season is... Perhaps if Joe goes out and adds a few more physically involved players for the bottom 6 and bottom D pairing, maybe Bednar will made adjustments to incorporate that style of play into our systems better.


But, he'd be on a fairly short leash for me and if the season doesn't start off great I'd be looking to make a change.

well said...

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Now that Montreal has indeed beaten Vegas... I think it should make Bednar's seat even hotter next year.

IMO the fact that even with a much better roster then Montreal we couldn't beat Vegas, more of the blame shifts to the coaching staff and our inability to better plan for what they were going to do and adjust to the adjustments they made quicker.


I think he deserves another chance and an opportunity to work with whatever the new roster we have for next season is... Perhaps if Joe goes out and adds a few more physically involved players for the bottom 6 and bottom D pairing, maybe Bednar will made adjustments to incorporate that style of play into our systems better.


But, he'd be on a fairly short leash for me and if the season doesn't start off great I'd be looking to make a change.

IMO the fact that even with a much better roster then Montreal we couldn't beat Vegas, more of the blame shifts to the coaching staff and our inability to better plan for what they were going to do and adjust to the adjustments they made quicker.

Bingo!

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Montreal beating Vegas has nothing to do with Bednar's hot seat. He's going to be on the same level of hot seat next year regardless of what Montreal or Vegas did in the conference finals.
The Avs have holes to fill and needs to address, until that happens, we are going to be the early Ovi Caps that can't quite get over the hump.

Montreal got hot, Caufield has put up some big time numbers and Price is a stud. You need a lot of things to break right during a Stanley cup playoff to get to the finals and eventually hoist the cup.
Bednar has taken flack and it's entirely fair for him to. Firing him is not going to magically fix the depth issues at C or the need for a more physical defense.

Your faith in Bednar is indeed admirable. Just don't bet your retirement savings on it.

LOL.

 

[Foppa2118]

What exactly did Luke Richardson, Alex Burrows, and Sean Burke do to Vegas that Bednar and his staff didn't do? Nobody ever says this part.

I don't know why people think the Habs and Avs are the same team stylistically. The Habs were a tough matchup stylistically for Vegas the same way Vegas was a tough matchup stylistically for the Avs.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

What exactly did Luke Richardson, Alex Burrows, and Sean Burke do to Vegas that Bednar and his staff didn't do? Nobody ever says this part.

I don't know why people think the Habs and Avs are the same team stylistically. The Habs were a tough matchup stylistically for Vegas the same way Vegas was a tough matchup stylistically for the Avs.

Look outside of HF Boards there are plenty of takes out there.... here's one...

"Vegas started and finished the year as it has done every season since its inaugural campaign: heavy favorites to play in the Stanley Cup Finals if not win them outright. The Golden Knights certainly looked the part in Game One against the Canadiens, cruising to a 4-1 victory. Montreal then changed tactics, going to a more heavy pressure approach against the Vegas offense with emphasis on regaining puck control and swift counterattacks. It worked; the bulk of Golden Knights goals scored were from its defensemen, and it wasn’t enough as the Canadiens took four of the next five games en route to a Finals matchup against the winner of tonight’s Tampa Bay Lightning-New York Islanders Game Seven brawl to end it all."

A number of commentators on NBC as well as NHL Network have broken this down in even greater detail.

My analysis is that Montreal's D withstood the pressure tactics (2-1-2 stack and spread with pinch D on the weak side) that Vegas fwds threw at them. Montreal absorbed hits, made short outlet passes, maintained composure handling the puck and hung onto the puck forcing Vegas fwds to either engage - and get caught - or swing away. This was evident in game 1. Montreal positioned their fwds defensively in their own zone to pick up centered pucks - or as outlets down at the base of the house to either the left or right of goal posts. In many cases, that player was a Habs winger since the Center was supporting the D below the goal line facing pressure. Staals give away that led to Roy's goal was because the Habs fwd hadn't sagged back deep enough to pick up the short outlet pass. Roy read it and the puck ended up on his stick.

The Avs pulled their center's down low but left their wings stationed on the side boards. They were checked by either the pinching defenceman while Vegas's F3 picked up or blocked the centering pass. Bura's give away that led to the turnover goal was a classic 2 -1- 2 F3 high forecheck. The centering pass hit the Vegas forwards stick and went the other way with no one to counter. Jared's insistence on the Avs playing THEIR game - trying to dictate play - led to their demise. (Not too mention his roster decisions). Vegas scoped all of that out and didn't have to adjust much because of the Avalanche's stubbornness.

All that is part of coaching. Search the net. What you are looking for is out there. Most of the folks on HF are fans with varying levels of understanding of the game. Don't count on finding answers on this board.

 

[Foppa2118]

Look outside of HF Boards there are plenty of takes out there.... here's one...

"Vegas started and finished the year as it has done every season since its inaugural campaign: heavy favorites to play in the Stanley Cup Finals if not win them outright. The Golden Knights certainly looked the part in Game One against the Canadiens, cruising to a 4-1 victory. Montreal then changed tactics, going to a more heavy pressure approach against the Vegas offense with emphasis on regaining puck control and swift counterattacks. It worked; the bulk of Golden Knights goals scored were from its defensemen, and it wasn’t enough as the Canadiens took four of the next five games en route to a Finals matchup against the winner of tonight’s Tampa Bay Lightning-New York Islanders Game Seven brawl to end it all."

A number of commentators on NBC as well as NHL Network have broken this down in even greater detail.

My analysis is that Montreal's D withstood the pressure tactics (2-1-2 stack and spread with pinch D on the weak side) that Vegas fwds threw at them. Montreal absorbed hits, made short outlet passes, maintained composure handling the puck and hung onto the puck forcing Vegas fwds to either engage - and get caught - or swing away. This was evident in game 1. Montreal positioned their fwds defensively in their own zone to pick up centered pucks - or as outlets down at the base of the house to either the left or right of goal posts. In many cases, that player was a Habs winger since the Center was supporting the D below the goal line facing pressure. Staals give away that led to Roy's goal was because the Habs fwd hadn't sagged back deep enough to pick up the short outlet pass. Roy read it and the puck ended up on his stick.

The Avs pulled their center's down low but left their wings stationed on the side boards. They were checked by either the pinching defenceman while Vegas's F3 picked up or blocked the centering pass. Bura's give away that led to the turnover goal was a classic 2 -1- 2 F3 high forecheck. The centering pass hit the Vegas forwards stick and went the other way with no one to counter. Jared's insistence on the Avs playing THEIR game - trying to dictate play - led to their demise. (Not too mention his roster decisions). Vegas scoped all of that out and didn't have to adjust much because of the Avalanche's stubbornness.

All that is part of coaching. Search the net. What you are looking for is out there. Most of the folks on HF are fans with varying levels of understanding of the game. Don't count on finding answers on this board.

I don't venture outside of HFAvs much. I have to be choosy about how to spend my time online these days and most of the stuff outside of here hockey wise either doesn't inform me much or is just too crazy for me to enjoy reading.

The stuff you mention though I feel is just general tactics. I don't think this was something that separated the coaching staffs. That style just fits Montreal and the players they have better than it fits the Avs and their players.

I don't think that's why Montreal beat Vegas. I think Carey Price was why they beat Vegas. If he doesn't play like Patrick Roy, then they lose pretty handedly imo even with those tactical decisions.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I don't venture outside of HFAvs much. I have to be choosy about how to spend my time online these days and most of the stuff outside of here hockey wise either doesn't inform me much or is just too crazy for me to enjoy reading.

The stuff you mention though I feel is just general tactics. I don't think this was something that separated the coaching staffs. That style just fits Montreal and the players they have better than it fits the Avs and their players.

I don't think that's why Montreal beat Vegas. I think Carey Price was why they beat Vegas. If he doesn't play like Patrick Roy, then they lose pretty handedly imo even with those tactical decisions.

Carey Price is playing at his 2015 level.

I can’t believe how much credit is being given to the Habs, their tactics, their defense, Caufield when you have goaltending that’s pretty much the pinnacle of expectations.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I don't venture outside of HFAvs much. I have to be choosy about how to spend my time online these days and most of the stuff outside of here hockey wise either doesn't inform me much or is just too crazy for me to enjoy reading.

The stuff you mention though I feel is just general tactics. I don't think this was something that separated the coaching staffs. That style just fits Montreal and the players they have better than it fits the Avs and their players.

I don't think that's why Montreal beat Vegas. I think Carey Price was why they beat Vegas. If he doesn't play like Patrick Roy, then they lose pretty handedly imo even with those tactical decisions.

I won't disagree about Price. Goalies nearly ALWAYS make the difference in Stanley Cup play. It amazes me that they aren't treated as the most critical vacancy on the team. Until its too late.

All I can say is smarter, faster, more flexible and competent coaching was on display to me in the Avs-GK series. You have your perspective and it appears there's really nothing sufficiently tangible that will make you reconsider it.

But I see the difference in the X's and O's employed by all 3 teams. To be sure, there were other factors - roster make up, physical specs, strategies and bench management. Bednar is not a good bench manager and his X's and Os are mediocre. He's handed his roster by Sakic.

That's my take. I'm not going to change it.

 

[Pokecheque]

Having big Buff was all the Hawks needed…as I remember they also had a couple of gritty players in the bottom six.

Avs had grit in the bottom six too, and as others have pointed out Byfuglien was only on that 2010 team and his role was sparing at best. He was used mostly as a fourth line forward and power play specialist by Quenneville. He didn’t come into his own until Atlanta/Winnipeg.

The Hawks did not “grit” their way to multiple Stanley Cups. They had elite skill, depth, and coaching. Goaltending was also good enough, though Niemi certainly wasn’t elite. Avs have the skill, they need to get the depth and hope to hell that Grubauer is good enough to make it four rounds. On the latter I have my doubts.

I’d also add that Bednar is not IMO an elite coach but he should be good enough with the talent on this roster to win it.

 

[henchman21]

Avs have went down a new school method of building a team. Because they have cranked things to 11, it is going to be unknown if it is going to work until it isn't. They can reel back more to a norm and add size and grit. It will change their identity and uniqueness.

 

[Pokecheque]

Avs have went down a new school method of building a team. Because they have cranked things to 11, it is going to be unknown if it is going to work until it isn't. They can reel back more to a norm and add size and grit. It will change their identity and uniqueness.

The Stars have paralleled the Avs in so many ways until recently, at least in terms of similar circumstances, but Sakic and Nill have approached their respective rebuilds in radically different ways. Nill has been super-aggressive from the beginning, Sakic has been more methodical and patient. Nill went for the bigger names on the market for coaches, Sakic scooped up a relative unknown. But Nill went full firewagon early on and since then has turned the Stars into a much bigger, slower, and defensive-minded team. Sakic stuck with speed and skill over everything else. The Stars did make their way to the Cup final and outdueled the Avs (but again, I am 100% confident if the Avs had even average goaltending, they would've won). The Stars obviously dealt with huge amounts of injuries, but what really did them in was their goaltending crashing back to earth. I sure hope Sakic doesn't try and emulate what's going on in Dallas, because IMO that would be a mistake.

 

[henchman21]

The Stars have paralleled the Avs in so many ways until recently, at least in terms of similar circumstances, but Sakic and Nill have approached their respective rebuilds in radically different ways. Nill has been super-aggressive from the beginning, Sakic has been more methodical and patient. Nill went for the bigger names on the market for coaches, Sakic scooped up a relative unknown. But Nill went full firewagon early on and since then has turned the Stars into a much bigger, slower, and defensive-minded team. Sakic stuck with speed and skill over everything else. The Stars did make their way to the Cup final and outdueled the Avs (but again, I am 100% confident if the Avs had even average goaltending, they would've won). The Stars obviously dealt with huge amounts of injuries, but what really did them in was their goaltending crashing back to earth. I sure hope Sakic doesn't try and emulate what's going on in Dallas, because IMO that would be a mistake.

I think they have fundamentally different ways of going about things, but in a results business, I think you have a hard time saying that right now, the Stars have done worse. They have a Cup final appearance, 2 losses in the 2nd round, and a loss in the first. The Avs have 3 straight losses in the second round and 2 first round losses. You can probably say the Avs will be better than the Stars next year (though I think some are really underrating the Stars), but the Stars have better playoffs success without the huge bottoming out.

FTR I prefer what Sakic has done to Nill, but I really don't see the results as that much different.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think they have fundamentally different ways of going about things, but in a results business, I think you have a hard time saying that right now, the Stars have done worse. They have a Cup final appearance, 2 losses in the 2nd round, and a loss in the first. The Avs have 3 straight losses in the second round and 2 first round losses. You can probably say the Avs will be better than the Stars next year (though I think some are really underrating the Stars), but the Stars have better playoffs success without the huge bottoming out.

FTR I prefer what Sakic has done to Nill, but I really don't see the results as that much different.

Agreed. I think what could be the huge, possibly fatal flaw in Sakic's Master Plan is the real lack of hockey sense on the roster. There's a ton of skill, but too many players who just don't have elite or even high-end hockey IQs. Too many players who are competent in only one end of the ice. I keep looking at Montreal and what they've done, and you can't say that team lacks hockey sense. That's what's impressing me the most about guys like Suzuki and Caufield. Neither of those guys are big, and they really aren't fast either. But that doesn't matter because they know exactly where to be and when. Avs just...don't have guys like that. The smartest guy on Colorado's roster is probably Landeskog, and even he was prone to insanely dumb mistakes in the playoffs.

I don't love what the Stars have done to their roster, mainly because I really liked them bucking convention and going full throttle, but I give Nill full credit for changing the identity of the team and still making it work. They've also got some pretty smart players on their roster as well, and a deeper and more balanced roster than the Avs, even if it's not quite as skilled or fast. I certainly won't sleep on them--the goaltending should be better next year, and they played practically the entire regular season without their best center.

The Avs don't need to get bigger. They need to get deeper, but most importantly, they gotta get smarter. How that can be done...I'm really not sure.