Speculation: Jakob Chychrun being held out of the Coyotes lineup until a trade is completed

[Frolov 6'3]

Personally I hope LA stays away from Chychrun.

Obviously a good player but the price is too steep and he has missed a ton of games in his career.

You can be very good but its useless when you sit in the press box.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

Crazy all this chatter about a healthy scratch level player!

 

[Wondercarrot]

Dreger was on Ottawa radio for the pre-game show an hour ago and said that while Chychrun may be scratched for an eventual trade there is some talk it’s a double reason thing and implied JC back is bothering him - so no more games.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The issue is the absurd amount of ridiculous comments. The Makar one is the crown jewel, but ever page or two you get some downright absurd comment from Kings fans that is completely out of touch.

It's a trend in this thread of Kings fans making absolute batshit crazy claims or dumb arguments for why their baseless claims are somehow legit. Literally on the last page, someone said that I was being critical of the Kings because they beat the Penguins last week. It's really obvious, and I don't know if you've been paying attention, but a lot of fans of other teams have noticed it.

I don't care whatsoever about the Kings or Coyotes. I'm interested in seeing the Chychrun trade, but I'm just giving my opinions based on the information I can gather. From what I can gather, the stuff being said in here from Kings fans is clearly on "Vancouver fans in the off-season" level delusion. I have yet to see a single post in this thread from any other fanbase on par with the crazy stuff Kings fans have said in here.

That's because you choose not to engage with the reasonable ones.

Stop pouring gasoline on the dumpster fire and you may have better results.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's because you choose not to engage with the reasonable ones.

Stop pouring gasoline on the dumpster fire and you may have better results.

Didn't you respond to my comment about Turcotte not having much value with "I forgot this website thought the Kings would have to waive Vilardi"?

Yeah, don't be too generous with yourself.

 

[JT Kreider]

I'll take that bet, Clarke can't skate and he moves in slow-mo.

I'm in on that bet as well. Clarke is being scarily overrated and over valued in these recent threads. With Chychrun being pretty damn undervalued.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

The issue is the absurd amount of ridiculous comments. The Makar one is the crown jewel, but ever page or two you get some downright absurd comment from Kings fans that is completely out of touch.

It's a trend in this thread of Kings fans making absolute batshit crazy claims or dumb arguments for why their baseless claims are somehow legit. Literally on the last page, someone said that I was being critical of the Kings because they beat the Penguins last week. It's really obvious, and I don't know if you've been paying attention, but a lot of fans of other teams have noticed it.

I don't care whatsoever about the Kings or Coyotes. I'm interested in seeing the Chychrun trade, but I'm just giving my opinions based on the information I can gather. From what I can gather, the stuff being said in here from Kings fans is clearly on "Vancouver fans in the off-season" level delusion.

C’mon dude, don’t take everything so personal. I understand that is annoying to read (The 6-0 beating, have you ever watched Turcotte etc etc) but it’s a result of your own sometimes misinformed clear opinion here too.

For example, I also think Turcotte has lost a lot of trade value but not to the extend of a mid round pick like you claimed. How is that not ridiculous. You have said some other things too which I don’t want to dig up again.

 

[Empoleon8771]

C’mon dude, don’t take everything so personal. I understand that is annoying to read (The 6-0 beating, have you ever watched Turcotte etc etc) but it’s a result of your own sometimes misinformed clear opinion here too.

For example, I also think Turcotte has lost a lot of trade value but not to the extend of of a mid round pick like you claimed. How is that not ridiculous.You have said some other things too which I don’t want to dig up again.

That's pretty much the expected return for Kravtsov, who's basically in the same position as Turcotte but with waiver eligibility.

That's the going rate for struggling former top prospects who haven't found success in the NHL yet. Usually what kills their value is waiver eligibility, so Turcotte does have a bit of a benefit there, but Turcotte's waiver eligible after next year. He's quickly running out of time. As soon as he requires waivers, he immediately plummets to Juolevi value: basically nothing.

I would be surprised if anyone gave up more than a late 2nd for him at this point. Maybe a mid 2nd if someone wanted to make the gamble.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Didn't you respond to my comment about Turcotte not having much value with "I forgot this website thought the Kings would have to waive Vilardi"?

Yeah, don't be too generous with yourself.

Oh please. Get off that cross.

If you go back you'll notice literally dozens of reasonable responses to you over several pages that you chose not to respond to and instead got your pitchfork out for the makar comment.

The reason you met resistance was because we started providing some nuance as to why guys aren't producing the way you thought they should and then you started pouting about it. That's fine, you're a Pittsburgh fan, you don't have to know about all Kings prospects, but you should at least listen to feedback instead of double down on huffy shitposting.

Really what it boils down to is this--
1. The Kings aren't ready for a 'finishing' move which is what moving a bluechip prospect would entail, at least vs. some other 'window-open' teams like Boston, Toronto, or even Edmonton;
2. Moving Clarke is foolish altogether given the Kings current contracts/salary structure;
3. We can all disagree on what Chychrun is to some degree but i don't see anything truly unreasonable on his abilities, just on his value and the relative value of several Kings' prospects.

For me personally I can understand why AZ is asking what they're asking but I wouldn't give up much more than the basis for the Muzzin trade, maybe one additional 1st/asset. La doesn't need yet another dman they can't play in all situations, if you're selling out the farm you had better get a guy who can hold down the fort with a lead, PK, PP, and whatever else you can throw at him and not even AZ treats him that way.

 

[jackjohnson]

I guess Coyotes really didn't want Peterson?

Lol kings fans love to throw Peterson in every trade. Don't think teams want him since he is a cap dump. Kings should add a 1st to Peterson if they want to move his contract

 

[Gardner McKay]

This is not a thread about Provorov. Continuing to discuss him or what happened will lead to an immediate thread ban and infraction. Keep it on Chychrun.

 

[KingsOfThe805]

Lol kings fans love to throw Peterson in every trade. Don't think teams want him since he is a cap dump. Kings should add a 1st to Peterson if they want to move his contract

I dont think ANY Kings fan expects a team to take him for free, Kings obviously add.

 

[JT Kreider]

Oh please. Get off that cross.

If you go back you'll notice literally dozens of reasonable responses to you over several pages that you chose not to respond to and instead got your pitchfork out for the makar comment.

The reason you met resistance was because we started providing some nuance as to why guys aren't producing the way you thought they should and then you started pouting about it.

Really what it boils down to is this--
1. The Kings aren't ready for a 'finishing' move which is what moving a bluechip prospect would entail, at least vs. some other 'window-open' teams like Boston, Toronto, or even Edmonton;
2. Moving Clarke is foolish altogether given the Kings current contracts/salary structure;
3. We can all disagree on what Chychrun is to some degree but i don't see anything truly unreasonable on his abilities, just on his value and the relative value of several Kings' prospects.

For me personally I can understand why AZ is asking what they're asking but I wouldn't give up much more than the basis for the Muzzin trade, maybe one additional 1st/asset. La doesn't need yet another dman they can't play in all situations, if you're selling out the farm you had better get a guy who can hold down the fort with a lead, PK, PP, and whatever else you can throw at him and not even AZ treats him that way.

Well when you play in the West, if you're not playing against Colorado or Edmonton, your opportunties to match up against elite competition are limited.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh please. Get off that cross.

If you go back you'll notice literally dozens of reasonable responses to you over several pages that you chose not to respond to and instead got your pitchfork out for the makar comment.

The reason you met resistance was because we started providing some nuance as to why guys aren't producing the way you thought they should and then you started pouting about it

Really what it boils down to is this--
1. The Kings aren't ready for a 'finishing' move which is what moving a bluechip prospect would entail, at least vs. some other 'window-open' teams like Boston, Toronto, or even Edmonton;
2. Moving Clarke is foolish altogether given the Kings current contracts/salary structure;
3. We can all disagree on what Chychrun is to some degree but i don't see anything truly unreasonable on his abilities, just on his value and the relative value of several Kings' prospects.

For me personally I can understand why AZ is asking what they're asking but I wouldn't give up much more than the basis for the Muzzin trade, maybe one additional 1st/asset. La doesn't need yet another dman they can't play in all situations, if you're selling out the farm you had better get a guy who can hold down the fort with a lead, PK, PP, and whatever else you can throw at him and not even AZ treats him that way.

But here's the reality that you're ignoring: what you think the Kings should be doing doesn't matter. I'm talking about what a Chychrun trade to LA would look like. What fans think of their team needs, where teams are at or whatever means nothing. It's the same thing when I see people on this site say stuff like "I don't want him, but this is what I'd pay for him". If your team is trading for him, they by definition want him and will be paying reasonable prices for him.

You can not want Chychrun and be completely justified. I'd also throw out that from a Kings perspective, he may not make sense because he's another OFD on a team that seems like it's very deep in OFD. But if he's going to the Kings, it's not going to be for a return that satisfies someone who doesn't want to pay for him. In reality, someone who would want Chychrun more would out-pay the "Turcotte, Walker and a 1st" offer that some Kings fans in here seem to want.

I'm giving my analysis on Chychrun's value based on what comparable players like him have been traded for in the past. Same thing with guys the Kings are offering like Clarke, Spence, Turcotte and such. I'm not a GM and have no role in any front office, so all I can give is my educated guess for what a trade would look like if it went down. Whether you'd want to do that or not is not relevant to that. I obviously have no way to show that I'm right with what I think teams would think of the Kings prospects, either. All I can do is try to find comparable players and see how they were valued.

To me, the offers from Kings fans to get Chychrun in here aren't even particularly close to what I think would get it done from the Coyotes. Unless they dangle Clarke, I honestly don't know that any package that they can throw together can pull off Chychrun. They could pull off a Muzzin package IMO, but I am skeptical they can do a Chychrun package.

 

[jackjohnson]

I dont think ANY Kings fan expects a team to take him for free, Kings obviously add.

They better be adding asset just to offload Peterson and the sweetener would need to be a 1st round pick

 

[hamzarocks]

The only prospects to ever play hockey who are worth 2022 Makar are

Lindros,
Crosby
Lemieux
Bedard
Ovechkin
McDavid

 

[Frolov 6'3]

That's pretty much the expected return for Kravtsov, who's basically in the same position as Turcotte but with waiver eligibility.

That's the going rate for struggling former top prospects who haven't found success in the NHL yet. Usually what kills their value is waiver eligibility, so Turcotte does have a bit of a benefit there, but Turcotte's waiver eligible after next year. He's quickly running out of time. As soon as he requires waivers, he immediately plummets to Juolevi value: basically nothing.

I would be surprised if anyone gave up more than a late 2nd for him at this point. Maybe a mid 2nd if someone wanted to make the gamble.

I wouldn’t rule out Turcotte just yet. He has a serious drive & motor but an extreme fragile body which has drastically hampered his career. If he doesn’t make it, its because of that. Turcotte has a skillset that can play on any line which is a big +.

For every Vilardi there are 10 other fragile prospects that never made it (possibly Turcotte too) but to come up with Kravtsov (pure goal scorer) and Juolevi (just never good enough) is not a strong argument.

That might be the reason why somebody said, have you even watched Turcotte lately.

 

[therealkoho]

Dreger was on Ottawa radio for the pre-game show an hour ago and said that while Chychrun may be scratched for an eventual trade there is some talk it’s a double reason thing and implied JC back is bothering him - so no more games.

I was wondering where "the insider" was in all of this, I mean heck the deal was just about as good as done on Saturday, and yet not a peep from the guy who fancies himself as the Groom of the Stool to NHL GM's

 

[Seattle King]

They better be adding asset just to offload Peterson and the sweetener would need to be a 1st round pick

Everyone acts like Cal's contract is nuclear waste. You're basically eating next year where you can bury him in the AHL for 3.8M cap hit, then buy him out at very favorable terms the following year. It's basically only bad this year and next then its easy to dump. There is no scenario that say we have to move Cal or our Cup window never opens.

 

[jackjohnson]

Everyone acts like Cal's contract is nuclear waste. You're basically eating next year where you can bury him in the AHL for 3.8M cap hit, then buy him out at very favorable terms the following year. It's basically only bad this year and next then its easy to dump. There is no scenario that say we have to move Cal or our Cup window never opens.

Too bad, it is a nuclear waste. People even want retention on players like schenn that have 900K cap hit or Garland who has 4.9 million contract but a lot more useful than Peterson who would just be a bench warmer. 3.8 million dollar of dead cap space is a lot. That's why you would need to throw in a 1st to have teams take it otherwise they won't help LA get cap space with a measly 2nd round pick.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well when you play in the West, if you're not playing against Colorado or Edmonton, you're not playing against elite competition.

It's relative to his teammates, so regardless....

But here's the reality that you're ignoring: what you think the Kings should be doing doesn't matter. I'm talking about what a Chychrun trade to LA would look like. What fans think of their team needs, where teams are at or whatever means nothing. It's the same thing when I see people on this site say stuff like "I don't want him, but this is what I'd pay for him". If your team is trading for him, they by definition want him and will be paying reasonable prices for him.

You can not want Chychrun and be completely justified. I'd also throw out that from a Kings perspective, he may not make sense because he's another OFD on a team that seems like it's very deep in OFD. But if he's going to the Kings, it's not going to be for a return that satisfies someone who doesn't want to pay for him. In reality, someone who would want Chychrun more would out-pay the "Turcotte, Walker and a 1st" offer that some Kings fans in here seem to want.

I'm giving my analysis on Chychrun's value based on what comparable players like him have been traded for in the past. Same thing with guys the Kings are offering like Clarke, Spence, Turcotte and such. I'm not a GM and have no role in any front office, so all I can give is my educated guess for what a trade would look like if it went down. Whether you'd want to do that or not is not relevant to that. I obviously have no way to show that I'm right with what I think teams would think of the Kings prospects, either. All I can do is try to find comparable players and see how they were valued.

To me, the offers from Kings fans to get Chychrun in here aren't even particularly close to what I think would get it done from the Coyotes. Unless they dangle Clarke, I honestly don't know that any package that they can throw together can pull off Chychrun. They could pull off a Muzzin package IMO, but I am skeptical they can do a Chychrun package.

Okay but you haven't done ANY of that, you've spent 10 pages pissing and moaning about Kings prospects that you've demonstrated you know nothing about, which is why you're clearly so bent about the returns.

You're overvaluing Chychrun if you think only Clarke can get it done because other teams involved can't even offer that.

Like I said, sure, base it off the Muzzin trade and add another asset. I think that's reasonable, even if it ends up being another 1st equivalent, so that gives it a base of 1st-1st-2nd-2nd (you will recall it was 1st, Durzi, Grundstrom). None of those guys were killer blue chip prospects, and so maybe you up the ante a little bit this time, but the difference between a prime all-situations dman like Muzzin was vs. an offensive specialist with average two-way play like Chychrun isn't friggin Clarke. Edit: ESPECIALLY when the market is saturated with reportedly available LHD where the dropoff between talent isn't as steep as the value difference being rumored for JC.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I wouldn’t rule out Turcotte just yet. He has a serious drive & motor but an extreme fragile body which has drastically hampered his career. If he doesn’t make it, its because of that. Turcotte is a NHL player that can play on any line.

For every Vilardi there are 10 other fragile prospects that never made it (possibly Turcotte too) but to come up with Kravtsov (pure goal scorer) and Juolevi (just never good enough) is not a strong argument.

That might be the reason why somebody said, have you even watched Turcotte lately.

How is that not a strong argument? It's directly comparing Turcotte to other highly drafted, high upside (or perceived upside) players and what they were traded for once they didn't work out.

Turcotte has 0 points in 12 NHL games along with 53 points in 82 AHL games. He's waiver eligible after next season, he only has the rest of this year and next year before he risks waivers. I don't see anything with Turcotte that suggests he's in any different of a position than any other former struggling high pick who was traded for little.

Turcotte is really close to the "not working out" portion of his value. He's not quite there yet, which is why he's doesn't have the value of only a 4th, but he's getting really close. He's only 21, so he's still young, but all of the guys drafted around him are impact players in the NHL right now and he's very clearly trending towards that "not working out" value.

 

[jackjohnson]

Everyone acts like Cal's contract is nuclear waste. You're basically eating next year where you can bury him in the AHL for 3.8M cap hit, then buy him out at very favorable terms the following year. It's basically only bad this year and next then its easy to dump. There is no scenario that say we have to move Cal or our Cup window never opens.

Maybe Canucks can trade you OEL for Peterson, so you get rid of Peterson's full cap hit while not trading any assets

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Chychrun is going to get hurt sitting on his couch waiting

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay but you haven't done ANY of that, you've spent 10 pages pissing and moaning about Kings prospects that you've demonstrated you know nothing about, which is why you're clearly so bent about the returns.

You're overvaluing Chychrun if you think only Clarke can get it done because other teams involved can't even offer that.

Like I said, sure, base it off the Muzzin trade and add another asset. I think that's reasonable, even if it ends up being another 1st equivalent, so that gives it a base of 1st-1st-2nd-2nd (you will recall it was 1st, Durzi, Grundstrom). None of those guys were killer blue chip prospects, and so maybe you up the ante a little bit this time, but the difference between a prime all-situations dman like Muzzin was vs. an offensive specialist with average two-way play like Chychrun isn't friggin Clarke. Edit: ESPECIALLY when the market is saturated with reportedly available LHD where the dropoff between talent isn't as steep as the value difference being rumored for JC.

I'm done wasting my time if you want to write of any disagreement you have as "you know nothing about what you're talking about", but I'll just say this: if Chychrun would be available for the kind of package that you think he'd be available for, he would have been traded already. If the Kings could get Chychrun for Walker, Turcotte and a 1st, he would have been traded already.

You can try to frame it however you want. Try to say how Turcotte isn't in the same boat as the other former high picks who were traded for scraps after not panning out. Try to say how Chychrun is comparable to a much older and IMO worse player in Muzzin. It doesn't matter. All I can guarantee you is that the Kings are either not going to get Chychrun or they're going to be paying a lot more than you seemingly want to.