Player Discussion Jake Sanderson (D) PART 3

[Tuna99]

Methot said it best: can we really expect 22 min from Sanderson for 60+ games?

Makar played 22+ minutes his first NHL game. Sandy will be our 3rd best Dman out of camp so he better be able to play 22 if needed

 

[Micklebot]

Methot said it best: can we really expect 22 min from Sanderson for 60+ games?

Who is expecting 22 mins a night? That's solidly top pair numbers. Dobson didn't hit 22 mins a night despite leading the NYI, Zub led RHD on the Sens at 21:02, we don't need 22 mins a night from Sanderson, we need 19-20.

 

[Tuna99]

Who is expecting 22 mins a night? That's solidly top pair numbers. Dobson didn't hit 22 mins a night despite leading the NYI, Zub led RHD on the Sens at 21:02, we don't need 22 mins a night from Sanderson, we need 19-20.

He needs to be north of 20 minutes if the D group wants to survive, Heiskenan and Makar were in their rookie seasons - don’t know why Sandy can’t do it

EK was too after Murray came to his senses and got him out of the A - these generational Dman can do it.

 

[Micklebot]

He needs to be north of 20 minutes if the D group wants to survive, Heiskenan and Makar were in their rookie seasons - don’t know why Sandy can’t do it

I see you've moved the goal posts from 22 to 20, but No, he really doesn't. The expectations here are out of touch with reality.

Makar played 21 mins a night his rookie season, and barely left the ice when the team had a PP averaging 3:43 a night on the PP.

Sanderson isn't going to be on the PP for us, aside from perhaps some shifts on the 2nd unit. He can easily take on a similar 5v5 role to what Makar did and solidify this group.

Sanderson doesn't need to replicate Makar's rookie season to be successful either. He's his own player. We don't need Sanderson to be our number one Dman out of the gate, we have Chabot and Zub that will take the lions share, he just needs to get into our top 4 before the end of the year.

 

[Tuna99]

I see you've moved the goal posts from 22 to 20, but No, he really doesn't. The expectations here are out of touch with reality.

Makar played 21 mins a night his rookie season, and barely left the ice when the team had a PP averaging 3:43 a night on the PP.

Sanderson isn't going to be on the PP for us, aside from perhaps some shifts on the 2nd unit. He can easily take on a similar 5v5 role to what Makar did and solidify this group.

Sanderson doesn't need to replicate Makar's rookie season to be successful either. He's his own player. We don't need Sanderson to be our number one Dman out of the gate, we have Chabot and Zub that will take the lions share, he just needs to get into our top 4 before the end of the year.

Disagree, I think he needs to be in the top 4 from the opening night and stay there. We have depth but the Zaitsev, Ham, Brann Holden group are all bottom pairing guys and should be between 14-18 minutes.

If Sandy isn’t playing 20+ It’ll be trouble for the D group, Chabot is a better player if he is only skating 25 or less night. I know we are arguing over 2-4 minutes of ice time each way for the top guys on the team but if it means Zaitsev has to play 20 because Sandy isn’t ready and Holden has to play 18-19 because Sandy isn’t ready: the group won’t be dynamic enough to elevate the overall play of the team.

Sandy being north of 20+ is as much about his talent and progress and competeveness to be a difference maker as it is about Zaistev being a suck machine and Hamonics legs getting old

 

[Micklebot]

Disagree, I think he needs to be in the top 4 from the opening night and stay there. We have depth but the Zaitsev, Ham, Brann Holden group are all bottom pairing guys and should be between 14-18 minutes.

If Sandy isn’t playing 20+ It’ll be trouble for the D group, Chabot is a better player if he is only skating 25 or less night. I know we are arguing over 2-4 minutes of ice time each way for the top guys on the team but if it means Zaitsev has to play 20 because Sandy isn’t ready and Holden has to play 18-19 because Sandy isn’t ready: the group won’t be dynamic enough to elevate the overall play of the team.

Sandy being north of 20+ is as much about his talent and progress and competeveness to be a difference maker as it is about Zaistev being a suck machine and Hamonics legs getting old

Not sure why you're bringing up Zaitsev, he's irrelevant, and likely doesn't play in our top 6 this year if he's even still on the team. Hamonic has played over 18 mins a night on every team he's played for, I don't expect him to suddenly drop below that here, but again, not really relevant seeing as he's not competing with Sanderson for icetime.

Holden was our top penalty killing Dman last year, if he's in the lineup, he likely will be again. 3 mins a night on the PK, along with a very modest 14 mins bottom pair at 5v5 (he played 16 mins 5v5 last year) puts him at 17 mins a night.

Sanderson's a LHD playing the left side behind Chabot, who eats up 26 mins a night. Even if we dial Chabot back to 24 mins a night that only leaves 36 mins to split across Sanderson and one of Brannstrom or Holden, both of which can handle more than 16 mins a night. If between them (Holden and Brann) they average 16-18 a night then that only leave <20 mins for Sanderson unless somebody is playing their offside.

I think Sanderson has the talent level to play more, but is it needed? No, he can play 19-20 mins while still being in our top 4 and with us having a successful season. The only reason he gets above that 19-20 mins is if he's a key piece on the PK and on the second PP unit. Do we need him to do that though? No, we really don't.

 

[Tuna99]

Not sure why you're bringing up Zaitsev, he's irrelevant, and likely doesn't play in our top 6 this year if he's even still on the team. Hamonic has played over 18 mins a night on every team he's played for, I don't expect him to suddenly drop below that here, but again, not really relevant seeing as he's not competing with Sanderson for icetime.

Holden was our top penalty killing Dman last year, if he's in the lineup, he likely will be again. 3 mins a night on the PK, along with a very modest 14 mins bottom pair at 5v5 (he played 16 mins 5v5 last year) puts him at 17 mins a night.

Sanderson's a LHD playing the left side behind Chabot, who eats up 26 mins a night. Even if we dial Chabot back to 24 mins a night that only leaves 36 mins to split across Sanderson and one of Brannstrom or Holden, both of which can handle more than 16 mins a night. If between them (Holden and Brann) they average 16-18 a night then that only leave <20 mins for Sanderson unless somebody is playing their offside.

I think Sanderson has the talent level to play more, but is it needed? No, he can play 19-20 mins while still being in our top 4 and with us having a successful season. The only reason he gets above that 19-20 mins is if he's a key piece on the PK and on the second PP unit. Do we need him to do that though? No, we really don't.

If the entire LD is only playing 60
Minutes per your calculation and Hamonic is playing 18 that means Zaistev has to play 20 or 20+ a night; that’s why we need Sandy North of 20 a night.

If Zub is 20+ with basically no PP time, just pair them together and roll them Out there.

But I do think if Sandy is only playing around 17-18 a night the group won’t be dynamic, we’ll be leaning to much on Chabot.

Holden and Chabot really slowed down at the end of the season last year and you could see they were tired. Really feel Sandy has to step into a top 4 roll and play there all year. Lots of rookie Dman do it, don’t see why it’s a problem.

He’s probably going to be the 2nd best Dman on the team and if not he’ll easily be the 3rd best, if he’s not north of 20 a night it’ll be trouble. Need to shelter Holden, Ham and Zaistev and Brann, if they are expected to play top 4 minutes it’s big trouble

Chabot 25 - Zub 21
Sandy 21 - Ham - 18
Holden - 16 - Zaitsev 16

You’ve got 3 minutes left over here to spread between the entire D. If they each pick up an extra 20 seconds we are good to go

 

[Micklebot]

If the entire LD is only playing 60
Minutes per your calculation and Hamonic is playing 18 that means Zaistev has to play 20 or 20+ a night; that’s why we need Sandy North of 20 a night.

What the hell are you talking about?
Zaitsev is likely not going to be on the team. We are going out of our way to trade for another RHD, but even if we don't get that Zaitsev is likely gone.

Zub plays 21 mins a night currently, Hamonic played 19:30 for us. Zaitsev only played 19 last year. But these guys are all RHD and don't factor in significantly to Sanderson's ice time. All of this is irrelevant

If Zub is 20+ with basically no PP time, just pair them together and roll them Out there.

Zub is a primary penalty killer, he'll likely be leaned on more in that role with Zaitsev gone unless whatever top4 RHD we acquire is a PK player. He got 20+ a night because he paired with Chabot, move him off Chabot's pair and Zub doesn't necessarily get as much icetime.

But I do think if Sandy is only playing around 17-18 a night the group won’t be dynamic, we’ll be leaning to much on Chabot.

Nobody said 17-18 mins a night, I said we need him to play 19-20. This started with me saying 22 mins a night isn't a reasonable expectation.

Holden and Chabot really slowed down at the end of the season last year and you could see they were tired. Really feel Sandy has to step into a top 4 roll and play there all year. Lots of rookie Dman do it, don’t see why it’s a problem.

Chabot didn't slow down as the season went on, we actually reduced his icetime and his production exploded. How did we do that, we improved our depth on D by adding Hamonic and playing Brannstrom more.

Nobody suggested Sanderson can't or shouldn't step in as a top 4 D, I said we shouldn't expect 22 mins a night which is top pair numbers. 19-20 mins is top 4 mins.

He’s probably going to be the 2nd best Dman on the team and if not he’ll easily be the 3rd best, if he’s not north of 20 a night it’ll be trouble. Need to shelter Holden, Ham and Zaistev and Brann, if they are expected to play top 4 minutes it’s big trouble

He's going to be behind Chabot, Zaitsev is irrelevant and unlikely to be in the lineup. Hamonic was fine in his role since arriving playing 19:30 a night, that role will likely be reduced if/when we acquire a top 4 RHD but again, not particularly relevant to expectations for Sanderson. Brannstrom and Holden will be fine in a bottom pair 16-18 a night role.

If Sanderson plays more than 20 mins a night, great. I think he'll do fine in that role, but it isn't a necessity, neither should it be an expectation. LD is our deepest position, we can afford to ease him into things.

 

[sennysensen]

I think Sanderson will be good right away, and play 20+ minutes per night.

 

[Micklebot]

I think Sanderson will be good right away, and play 20+ minutes per night.

I'm sure he's going to be good right away, he's an excellent prospect.

Anything over 20 mins a night is gravy, it probably means he steps right onto the PK which would really help us as that's probably our biggest gap right now especially if Brannstrom plays over Holden.

Not a lot of D play > 20 mins at ES, and even fewer will get close to that behind a guy like Chabot in the lineup who led the league in ES TOI/G. If he is to get over 20 mins a night it's likely because he's getting around 2 mins of special teams every game. Possible, but not necessary.

 

[aragorn]

I'm quite sure DJ will take his time with Sanderson starting him with lower controlled minutes & over time as his stamina increases so will his minutes. He definitely needs to add a lot more muscle to that 6'1" frame which will help him deal with the bigger stronger NHL forwards. Skill & skating wise he is clearly elite, but will require some time to adjust to the NHL game's speed & rough play. They are not going to throw him in the fire right off the bat, but start slow & give hime more time as he shows he can handle it just like every other rookie to play in the NHL.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Like all the other kids, Sanderson will be brought along by DJ at the speed of his ability to excel in his current given minutes.

Whether he ends up top six right away will depend on what we see from Sanderson, and how quickly he acclimatized and excels in the NHL.

That’s my expectation.

I think that there won’t be any undue expectations put on him by teammates and coaching staff, and he’ll be sheltered and protected by the vets around him. He has Chabot, Holden, Hamonic and to a lesser extent language wise, Zub, to draw from.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Sanderson isn't going to jump in and play 20+ minutes a night. That's asking way too much for any rookie defenseman. We also don't have the team surrounding him that Makar had as a rookie.

The team we do have, is also going to need some time to gel and figure out where all the new additions fit best. I know everyone is excited about the team this year, but we still need to have a bit of patience here.

 

[SlapJack]

Sanderson is going to do what he always does when he goes up a level; play cautious defensive hockey, make people suspicious of him being an elite prospect, then slowly start learning what he can do and be a stud before the season is over.

I can almost guarantee there will be whining about Sanderson not being ready or not as good as advertised after the first 10 games. He'll still be doing good things, but if he's not Makar after 20 minutes, you'll have the standard crew of fans complaining about what a waste of a pick he was. Only a minority, but a very vocal group.

His usage and time on ice will be closely monitored to start. I'm confident he will be very good right from the beginning and earn more quickly.

 

[Micklebot]

Sanderson isn't going to jump in and play 20+ minutes a night. That's asking way too much for any rookie defenseman. We also don't have the team surrounding him that Makar had as a rookie.

The team we do have, is also going to need some time to gel and figure out where all the new additions fit best. I know everyone is excited about the team this year, but we still need to have a bit of patience here.

I think you might want to re-evaluate that, it's at the very least closer than you might think;

Landeskog-McKinnon-Rantanan
Burakovski-Kadri-Donskoi
Calvert-Bellemare-Nichuskin

vs

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
Debrincat-Stutzle-Giroux
Formenton-Pinto-Joseph

We don't have quite have the top end but our top 9 holds it's own imo

Girard-E.Johnson
Graves-Makar
Cole-Zadorov

vs

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Hamonic
Brannstrom-Holden

They have a deeper D unless we add the top 4 RHD we're after at which point we potentially match up pretty good imo with Chabot being better than anybody other than Makar.

 

[playasRus]

My question would be, if we have a D corps of:

Chabot 25 - Zub 24
Sandy 18 - Ham - 20
Holden - 17 - Zaitsev 16

Then will that Chabot and Sanderson 43 minutes be at a level that gives the Senators an advantage night in and out on an 82 game basis?

Or will Sanderson need a 10 game adjust period and a late season wear down where his mistakes create scoring chances for the opponent.

Hard to predict. I'm just saying Methot and Button both suggested Sanderson will not be able to be leaned on as a 2LD for an arbitrarily set 22min and THEY predict this D will hold back the team in a way that the forward corp will have to overcome it to win us more games.

 

[SpezDispenser]

No pressure Sandy!

 

[PlayOn]

My question would be, if we have a D corps of:

Chabot 25 - Zub 24
Sandy 18 - Ham - 20
Holden - 17 - Zaitsev 16

Then will that Chabot and Sanderson 43 minutes be at a level that gives the Senators an advantage night in and out on an 82 game basis?

Or will Sanderson need a 10 game adjust period and a late season wear down where his mistakes create scoring chances for the opponent.

Hard to predict. I'm just saying Methot and Button both suggested Sanderson will not be able to be leaned on as a 2LD for an arbitrarily set 22min and THEY predict this D will hold back the team in a way that the forward corp will have to overcome it to win us more games.

Imo Sanderson isn’t the issue, I suspect that even on his worst day he’s better than most of the defencemen we’ve been dressing for the last few years. It’s his partner that we need to worry about. I don’t think Hamonic belongs in our top four on a regular basis, maybe just to fill in when injuries arise, but otherwise he should be the bottom pairing RD.

 

[playasRus]

Imo Sanderson isn’t the issue, I suspect that even on his worst day he’s better than most of the defencemen we’ve been dressing for the last few years. It’s his partner that we need to worry about. I don’t think Hamonic belongs in our top four on a regular basis, maybe just to fill in when injuries arise, but otherwise he should be the bottom pairing RD.

Sanderson was never the issue. The issue is that since Chabot from ?2015, we've yet to develop another competent D and the only competent D we've signed in 7 years has been Zub...who happens to be on an expiring contract.

 

[Sweatred]

I just hope Sanderson survives training camp.

 

[jake1]

I am intensely curious how his defensive game will translate to the highest level. He has been an off-the-charts possession eraser so far, either on the rush or along the boards. Because that's based on his head and his skating, I think he'll adjust and be really good defensively. If so, even if he never ended up elite offensively, he'd be one of the most important players on a winning team. In a couple years, he's going to be the 24 minutes, end-of-game guy. I think.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I think you might want to re-evaluate that, it's at the very least closer than you might think;

Landeskog-McKinnon-Rantanan
Burakovski-Kadri-Donskoi
Calvert-Bellemare-Nichuskin

vs

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
Debrincat-Stutzle-Giroux
Formenton-Pinto-Joseph

We don't have quite have the top end but our top 9 holds it's own imo

Girard-E.Johnson
Graves-Makar
Cole-Zadorov

vs

Chabot-Zub
Sanderson-Hamonic
Brannstrom-Holden

They have a deeper D unless we add the top 4 RHD we're after at which point we potentially match up pretty good imo with Chabot being better than anybody other than Makar.

Yes, both groups are good on paper. But the first part of the season is going to be up in the air a bit as guys learn to play with new linemates and we figure out how everyone fits. So even with this infusion of talent, there will be a significant number of defensive lapses by the forwards while everything shakes out.

That's the tricky part with rookie defensemen...both learning the game at the highest level and also being a bit dependent on your forwards helping out. Having a weaker partner on D doesn't help, either.

I'm 99% certain Jake will get through it and do quite well...but there will be a learning curve. But comparing him to Makar really isn't fair. If he does acclimitie that well and that quickly to the NHL, we should consider that a huge bonus...not an expectation.

 

[Tuna99]

What the hell are you talking about?
Zaitsev is likely not going to be on the team. We are going out of our way to trade for another RHD, but even if we don't get that Zaitsev is likely gone.

Zub plays 21 mins a night currently, Hamonic played 19:30 for us. Zaitsev only played 19 last year. But these guys are all RHD and don't factor in significantly to Sanderson's ice time. All of this is irrelevant


Zub is a primary penalty killer, he'll likely be leaned on more in that role with Zaitsev gone unless whatever top4 RHD we acquire is a PK player. He got 20+ a night because he paired with Chabot, move him off Chabot's pair and Zub doesn't necessarily get as much icetime.


Nobody said 17-18 mins a night, I said we need him to play 19-20. This started with me saying 22 mins a night isn't a reasonable expectation.


Chabot didn't slow down as the season went on, we actually reduced his icetime and his production exploded. How did we do that, we improved our depth on D by adding Hamonic and playing Brannstrom more.

Nobody suggested Sanderson can't or shouldn't step in as a top 4 D, I said we shouldn't expect 22 mins a night which is top pair numbers. 19-20 mins is top 4 mins.



He's going to be behind Chabot, Zaitsev is irrelevant and unlikely to be in the lineup. Hamonic was fine in his role since arriving playing 19:30 a night, that role will likely be reduced if/when we acquire a top 4 RHD but again, not particularly relevant to expectations for Sanderson. Brannstrom and Holden will be fine in a bottom pair 16-18 a night role.

If Sanderson plays more than 20 mins a night, great. I think he'll do fine in that role, but it isn't a necessity, neither should it be an expectation. LD is our deepest position, we can afford to ease him into things.

I think the LD will be playing about 65 minutes a night (Chabot 26, Sandy 21+, Holden 18) so that only leaves 55 minutes for the RD (Zub at 21, Ham at 19 so Zaistev gets 15)

That 3rd paring RD at 15 minutes is perfect for JBD or Thomson at 15 minutes. Even more reason to trade Zaitsev

Still think by the end of the season Sandy is closer to 22 minutes then he is to 20 minutes.

When you have the puck as much as we will, the game will be easier for him. And he’ll be a big part of that. He won’t be getting caved in every shift like these poor guys have been the last 5 years. Also think he gets some PK minutes just to get his minutes up, and he’ll probably be very good at it

 

[SensFactor]

Sanderson will play 18+ mins a night. He will struggle with the speed of the NHL at first but I expect him to have a strong second half.

 

[thinkwild]

Even Karlsson got sent down to Bingo for some games his first year. A good dip your toes in the pool year for Jake i hope. Id hope he finds his strong defensive game at this level first which springs his offensive confidence. But seems unfair to put Makar like expectations on him, ill be much more patient