Player Discussion Jake "Big Tuna" Virtanen | XVII Nikolaj Who...?

[MS]

The UFA's signings, including bringing Rodin back, pretty well dooms Virtanen to Utica to start the season.....the dream of course is that kids like Virtanen, Dahlen, Goldobin, Molino, Gaunce and Boeser make it impossible for Green not to have them in the opening night lineup.

But then what would you do with guys like Burmistrov, Gagner and Dorsett?....just too easy to send the kids down without waivers. I do think though that the competition on the blueline will be more wide-open than up front....some decent depth d-men are going to end up being sent out.

Virtanen should be nowhere other than Utica, even if he had a good camp and there were jobs available.

He needs to go spend 30-40 games getting tons of icetime and tons of PP time and get his confidence and mojo back before you even think about calling him up. The absolute worst thing that could happen is that he has a decent camp and then immediately gets stuck right back into playing 8-10 minutes/game in the bottom-6 here.

 

[TruGr1t]

Virtanen should be nowhere other than Utica, even if he had a good camp and there were jobs available.

He needs to go spend 30-40 games getting tons of icetime and tons of PP time and get his confidence and mojo back before you even think about calling him up. The absolute worst thing that could happen is that he has a decent camp and then immediately gets stuck right back into playing 8-10 minutes/game in the bottom-6 here.

It'll obviously depend on his camp / pre-season, but I can't fathom Virtanen starting anywhere except for Utica. He'd have to demonstrate such a monumental improvement from recent play to even sniff a job on the team.

Again, I don't think some people are taking into account just how God awful he was in Utica last year. Not least of all because he was a total non-factor physically. If he's not scoring and not hitting I don't see how he's even much of a AHLer at this point. Let alone somehow, totally miraculously, plays his way onto the Canucks.

 

[DadBod]

Ask Travis Green it was in every interview even Jake himself talked about how much better his work habits got and how he skated faster after improving his training and learning to be a pro. He got better on and off the ice by all accounts. That is an upward trajectory. Do you know what the words qualitative and quantitative mean and what is the difference between them?

What was Green going to publically say? Was he supposed to rip him?

And I don't remember Green going out of his way to praise Virtanen. I don't recall mentioning Jake by name without being specifically asked. Plus any praise that was given his way was vague and meaningless. Most notably Virtanen was praised by Benning and Green for getting his cardio up to actually complete a full practice. They also praised him because he was in the gym (which he should be anyways after showing up to camp fat).

These aren't very high praises...and he certainly didn't do anything on ice memorable, being demoted to the 4th line often and no PP time.

 

[lawrence]

So some low class Canuck fans want him to fail now? What purpose does this serve?

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

Virtanen should be nowhere other than Utica, even if he had a good camp and there were jobs available.

He needs to go spend 30-40 games getting tons of icetime and tons of PP time and get his confidence and mojo back before you even think about calling him up. The absolute worst thing that could happen is that he has a decent camp and then immediately gets stuck right back into playing 8-10 minutes/game in the bottom-6 here.

I think some time to start in the AHL is the way to go. Even if he looks good.

I think Goldy's earned the chance over him at this point anyway

 

[RobertKron]

So some low class Canuck fans want him to fail now? What purpose does this serve?

Who? Quote five posts.

 

[WonderTwinsUnite]

So some low class Canuck fans want him to fail now? What purpose does this serve?

Please provide a quote of anybody saying they want Virtanen to fail. There are a lot of people, myself included, that think he's on a go-awful post-draft trajectory, but nobody wants him to fail.

Big difference.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

So some low class Canuck fans want him to fail now? What purpose does this serve?

Learn to read. Seriously.

 

[F A N]

Virtanen should be nowhere other than Utica, even if he had a good camp and there were jobs available.

Uh... no. He earns a spot you give him a spot.

 

[timw33]

Uh... no. He earns a spot you give him a spot.

Ehhhh, the worry there is that he has a few games, hits a roadblock and loses confidence. Better to stow him in the AHL while he's still waiver eligible and give him top 6 time and PP1 time. Needs to have sustained good play over a long period of time and confidence.

 

[valkynax]

Virtanen should be nowhere other than Utica, even if he had a good camp and there were jobs available.

He needs to go spend 30-40 games getting tons of icetime and tons of PP time and get his confidence and mojo back before you even think about calling him up. The absolute worst thing that could happen is that he has a decent camp and then immediately gets stuck right back into playing 8-10 minutes/game in the bottom-6 here.

Not sure if that's a good idea. Wasn't that how they tried to develop Virtanen right in the beginning?

At this point, he needs to show that he deserves a spot on the roster. If he does, he will likely be put into bottom 6 roles. When this happens, it's not about production - no one expect the kid to be McJesus playing with garbage like Chaput. What he does have to show are the intangibles - effort level, defensive play, positioning, decision on ice, being a good teammate...etc. If he does all that, he should, in theory, have decent production from bottom 6. At this point Green may put him in top 6 for a little bit and see what happens.

At least this is my take on the process for him right now.

 

[MS]

Uh... no. He earns a spot you give him a spot.

Playing well for 5 preseason games doesn't trump 3 years of mostly catastrophic development. If he's somehow played well enough to get 15+ minutes/game and top-6 icetime, sure, keep him. But that isn't going to happen.

The guy needs to learn how to score again and get his confidence back. He needs to follow a process at this point if he's ever going to amount to anything. Not just get insta-rewarded for a blip and then stuck back on a 4th line.

The organization has handled this player disastrously. He needs to get consistent minutes in offensive situations and a consistent message, not jerked around more as a fringe player bouncing between levels and in and out of the pressbox.

 

[timw33]

To add to the above points: he hasn't been an above-average, let alone elite, goal scorer in 4 years.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Am I saying that Virtanen has been good enough since being drafted no but to say there's no upward trajectory or he does not have tremendous potential to take over games and be an impact player in the NHL i'm sorry that's just a bunch of malarkey

 

[timw33]

Am I saying that Virtanen has been good enough since being drafted no but to say there's no upward trajectory or he does not have tremendous potential to take over games and be an impact player in the NHL i'm sorry that's just a bunch of malarkey

Man you're going to have to enlighten us. It's pretty clear when players have the potential to take over games and provide a major impact, and they look like guys like William Nylander and Nikolaj Ehlers.

JV has proved that he can be an above average WHL goal scorer and on occasion make a big hit. He has a couple tools that we don't see on a regular basis, and clearly lacks key elements in a professional: maturity/lack of ego, high hockey sense, motor, ability to use size advantage against men, etc.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

What was Green going to publically say? Was he supposed to rip him?

And I don't remember Green going out of his way to praise Virtanen. I don't recall mentioning Jake by name without being specifically asked. Plus any praise that was given his way was vague and meaningless. Most notably Virtanen was praised by Benning and Green for getting his cardio up to actually complete a full practice. They also praised him because he was in the gym (which he should be anyways after showing up to camp fat).

These aren't very high praises...and he certainly didn't do anything on ice memorable, being demoted to the 4th line often and no PP time.

I tend to believe Green was telling the truth when he outlined the Upward trajectory of Virtanen in Utica. That's not the same as high praise for low praise. He did do some noticeable things I think he went on some encouraging point or goal streaks and he was playing fast like really good on the power play and on the top lines to but Uticas lineup went fubar for a good part of the season so context is required when you say he played on this line or that line

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Man you're going to have to enlighten us. It's pretty clear when players have the potential to take over games and provide a major impact, and they look like guys like William Nylander and Nikolaj Ehlers.

JV has proved that he can be an above average WHL goal scorer and on occasion make a big hit. He has a couple tools that we don't see on a regular basis, and clearly lacks key elements in a professional: maturity/lack of ego, high hockey sense, motor, ability to use size advantage against men, etc.

No need to be a brainiac with Jake skill sets he already showed in February 2016 as MS stated that he can impact games in the NHL at age 19 you think he will never repeat that after he has matured gotten better in on and off the ice I think that is balderdash balderdash

 

[timw33]

I tend to believe Green was telling the truth when he outlined the Upward trajectory of Virtanen in Utica. That's not the same as high praise for low praise. He did do some noticeable things I think he went on some encouraging point or goal streaks and he was playing fast like really good on the power play and on the top lines to but Uticas lineup went fubar for a good part of the season so context is required when you say he played on this line or that line

Here's some fun overnight reading for you, cause your post makes no sense and it seems like you didn't watch any of the Comets games (JV Game by Game Log): http://theahl.com/stats/player/5981

He had one noticeable streak of 3 goals in 3 games (4 goals in 5 games if you expand that out 2 more games). That's it. And that was in the first 13 games of the year.

Aside from that streak of 3G in 3GP he would have points (single points) in back to back games only twice more. The more noticeable streaks were his 9 game pointless streak, his 2 8 game pointless streaks, his 6 game pointless streak and his 5 game pointless streak.


"Playing fast like really good on the PP" - Who are you, Willie Desjardins?

 

[F A N]

Ehhhh, the worry there is that he has a few games, hits a roadblock and loses confidence. Better to stow him in the AHL while he's still waiver eligible and give him top 6 time and PP1 time. Needs to have sustained good play over a long period of time and confidence.

He can be sent down. The Canucks have been trying to establish a culture where players make the team on merit. If Virtanen makes the team based on merit you let him make the team.

Playing well for 5 preseason games doesn't trump 3 years of mostly catastrophic development. If he's somehow played well enough to get 15+ minutes/game and top-6 icetime, sure, keep him. But that isn't going to happen.

It's not about trumping anything. Players develop differently. Virtanen making the team on merit probably involves him scoring in the preseason. If he comes to camp and earns a spot you give him a spot. Plain and simple. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sending him down to the AHL and telling him to produce, but you can't talk about competition at camp and then don't reward guys for making the team. One of the things I felt Gillis did wrong was that players would come to camp trying to earn a spot and then the last minute Gillis would pick up a guy through waivers or through trade and gets a spot. Last season, Stecher made the team on merit but was sent down. It's not fair. But he was the quickly called up, which made up for it.

 

[MS]

He can be sent down. The Canucks have been trying to establish a culture where players make the team on merit. If Virtanen makes the team based on merit you let him make the team.



It's not about trumping anything. Players develop differently. Virtanen making the team on merit probably involves him scoring in the preseason. If he comes to camp and earns a spot you give him a spot. Plain and simple. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sending him down to the AHL and telling him to produce, but you can't talk about competition at camp and then don't reward guys for making the team. One of the things I felt Gillis did wrong was that players would come to camp trying to earn a spot and then the last minute Gillis would pick up a guy through waivers or through trade and gets a spot. Last season, Stecher made the team on merit but was sent down. It's not fair. But he was the quickly called up, which made up for it.

Trust me, I'm all about training camp being a competition and players making the team on merit.

But Virtanen is different and the team needs to be looking at the bigger picture. This is a player with shattered confidence who appeared to be broken mentally last year, and who has been jerked around all over the place by this organization development-wise.

He needs to get consistent offensive icetime, a consistent message from a coaching staff, and build back his confidence offensively. Completely throwing the process out the window because he has a blip in training camp, and putting him back in a low-icetime position on the NHL club - where his confidence will probably just get wrecked again - is just completely foolhardy. And is the kind of awful management/development that helped put him in the position he's in now in the first place.

If he can show an EXTENDED run of quality play for 20-30 games to start the season in Utica - which would be his first extended stretch of good play since the spring of 2014 - then you look at bringing him up.

 

[deckercky]

If he's not one of the best 12 forwards in camp, then send him down by all means, but if Virtanen earns it above alternative options, I would have no issue with him slotting into the 4th line and slowly learning to play his way up the lineup in the NHL. If he can excel in that role (and he has all the tools to do so), he will generate some offensive opportunities and earn more ice time.

 

[TruGr1t]

Trust me, I'm all about training camp being a competition and players making the team on merit.

But Virtanen is different and the team needs to be looking at the bigger picture. This is a player with shattered confidence who appeared to be broken mentally last year, and who has been jerked around all over the place by this organization development-wise.

He needs to get consistent offensive icetime, a consistent message from a coaching staff, and build back his confidence offensively. Completely throwing the process out the window because he has a blip in training camp, and putting him back in a low-icetime position on the NHL club - where his confidence will probably just get wrecked again - is just completely foolhardy. And is the kind of awful management/development that helped put him in the position he's in now in the first place.

If he can show an EXTENDED run of quality play for 20-30 games to start the season in Utica - which would be his first extended stretch of good play since the spring of 2014 - then you look at bringing him up.

In support of these ideas, JD Burke was on TSN 1040 this morning to talk about this exact situation (and the Horvat contract): http://www.tsn.ca/radio/audio/burke-utica-best-place-for-virtanen-next-year-1.810441

One interesting point he made is that the organization has effectively mislabeled Virtanen to the fanbase (i.e. he was never a power forward and doesn't play that type of game). They also talk a bit about his limitations due to hockey IQ and how he's the type of player that literally needs to be put in a position to succeed (i.e. play to his strengths).

CA has long made the point that Virtanen's struggles directly correspond with the Canucks instituting a more structured system. He simply doesn't think the game that well.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

No need to be a brainiac with Jake skill sets he already showed in February 2016 as MS stated that he can impact games in the NHL at age 19 you think he will never repeat that after he has matured gotten better in on and off the ice I think that is balderdash balderdash

Jeff Cowan scored a hat trick. Clearly I don't have to tell you that he exploded offensively and became a fixture on the Sedin line.

The proof is in the very limited sample size and if we ignore all data before and after.

 

[Canucks LB]

Virtanen is in town right now, don't ask me how I know, but I do. (i am sure you can guess).

Doing training at home most likely

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Virtanen is in town right now, don't ask me how I know, but I do. (i am sure you can guess).

Doing training at home most likely

Well ya someone posted Instagram video of him pushing a rack in chilliwack