Speculation: Jack Eichel cont'd

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Jim Bob

RIP RJ
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The club is winning. More winning, and the rink will start to fill up. Then maybe the ownership will change their stance on supporting Jack’s surgery, so the trade can happen with a decent return?

I doubt the Sabres doctors change their opinion if the team is winning and the fans are packing the house.

And I doubt the Sabres will go against the advice of their doctors.

It will be interesting to see if all the data that Team Eichel is collecting changes the Sabres doctors' opinion at all.
 

DavidBL

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No, he was not paralyzed. He had an artificial disk that was placed with screws to try and stand up to the pounding and it did not. My guess is that the screws may have come loose and put pressure on a nerve causing pain. The article I read did not go into detail about how exactly it failed. IIRC, he did return to sport after the fusion surgery.

Personally, I think the paralysis risk is getting overstated by people speculating on the internet to try and strengthen their pro-fusion viewpoint.

Just like I think the long term follow on surgery risk is getting overstated by people speculating on the internet to try and strengthen their pro-ADR viewpoint.
You're probably right on those counts. Though 25% down to 5% isn't insignificant. Especially when considering the other benefits as well.
 
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HogtownSabresfan

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Is that fantasy that Nick Suzuki is not worth Eichel going to live on in the minds of Habs fans after this year. Guy was always a third-line centre, second at best. But he's locked down for $7.85 M and Eichel will never walk again. I know.
 

Fjordy

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Is that fantasy that Nick Suzuki is not worth Eichel going to live on in the mind of Habs fans after this year. Guy was always a third-line centre, second at best. But he's locked down for $7.85 M and Eichel will never walk again. I know.
Suzuki would be very good under Granato coaching.
 

DavidBL

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Looks like more armchair doctors than usual got out of bed and logged onto HFBoards this morning...
Im just trying to understand based on the info that is available to us. I'm having trouble understanding why Buffalo wont allow him to get the surgery at this point. Future injuries arent really their concern. Trade partners are already established as teams who will accept the ADR. Given those as facts why would you deny the treatment. The liability wont be on Buffalo as he's not going to be a Sabre when the ADR potentially fails as they seem to think it will.
 

HogtownSabresfan

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Suzuki would be very good under Granato coaching.

He is a 40-50 point player. Valuable piece you love to have, no doubt. But has never been and never will be Eichel's class. And the idea promoted by some Habs fans that couldn't be in a deal for Eichel is laughable. Now he's making almost $8 M, making his cap hit okay. At best. And more likely a smidge too high. (And, no, Skinner is a disaster before anyone brings him up. We all know that.)
 

Fjordy

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He is a 40-50 point player. Valuable piece you love to have, no doubt. But has never been and never will be Eichel's class. And the idea promoted by some Habs fans that couldn't be in a deal for Eichel is laughable. Now he's making almost $8 M, making his cap hit okay. At best. And more likely a smidge too high. (And, no, Skinner is a disaster before anyone brings him up. We all know that.)
Well, I don't agree that he is a 40-50 points player. Of course he is not on the level of Eichel, but I would like to see such a player in Buffalo, he would be a good top 6 C under Granato.
 

57special

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It is likely the insurance issue.

If the procedure would invalidate the insurance policy, the Sabres would could be on the hook for an extra 32 million of Eichels contract if he never plays again. (It would amount to 50 million vs 17.5 million)

Eichel won't be interested in possibly voiding his contract if he can't play. The NHL or the PA won't take on the financial risk to cover the contract.

All the posters in this thread blaming the sabres for not going along with Eichels wishes aren't taking into account the reality of the situation.
If it is an insurance issue(which I doubt), then don’t you think the Sabres, Eichel, or a 3rd party( agent, doctor, reporter) would’ve mentioned that? You’re grasping at straws to find some logic here
 
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Jim Bob

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Im just trying to understand based on the info that is available to us. I'm having trouble understanding why Buffalo wont allow him to get the surgery at this point. Future injuries arent really their concern. Trade partners are already established as teams who will accept the ADR. Given those as facts why would you deny the treatment. The liability wont be on Buffalo as he's not going to be a Sabre when the ADR potentially fails as they seem to think it will.

Their doctors are not comfortable with OKing a procedure that has never been performed on an NHL player. Given that that is the extent of the rationale that the Sabres have put on the record, it leads to speculation around things like insurance and long term liability if they were to OK ADR and there was a catastrophic failure down the road that lead to paralysis.

For everyone sitting on the sidelines, it would be very interesting if Dr Cappuccino, or some other Sabres doctor, were to give an interview like Prusmack did on the 31 Thoughts pod and other doctors have on various media outlets since then. But, the Sabres have not been willing to play this out in the court of public opinion as much as Eichel has been.
 

Doug Prishpreed

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Best case scenario is that Buffalo doctors get convinced to approve the procedure, Eichel gets it, and trade talks are punted until he's able to start taking contact again.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
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Rochester, NY
Best case scenario is that Buffalo doctors get convinced to approve the procedure, Eichel gets it, and trade talks are punted until he's able to start taking contact again.

I do wonder if they could get to a point where the Sabres say that he can have ADR with the understanding that the Sabres doctors will never approve him to play after having ADR. And perhaps have Eichel signs an agreement to not sue the Sabres if there are complications due to the ADR down the road.

:dunno:
 

bigtim1988

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Jun 7, 2009
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I knew about this whole Eichel situation, but I had no idea wtf the difference was between spinal fusion, and ADR.

Did some cursory research this morning, and damn, I have no idea how either surgery is going to be durable enough to withstand the abuse of professional hockey. It seems like fusion would be worse for hockey, and ADR would be more durable. you're def losing mobility turning two vertebrae into one, and it seems like it's just asking for future issues. ADR seems like they just replace your disk with an artificial one, and it's all done. Am I wrong?
 

MarkusKetterer

Shoulda got one game in
The club is winning. More winning, and the rink will start to fill up. Then maybe the ownership will change their stance on supporting Jack’s surgery, so the trade can happen with a decent return?

Well, yes. Mind you it also depends on the border opening up, and if the owners punt the idea of season tickets for this season.

was gonna joke about this. ok reverse the trend and fill the arena!

Hopefully! I imagine there'll be a decent turnout tonight, given that A: the team is doing alright and B: Ullmark is making his Buffalo return.
 
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MarkusKetterer

Shoulda got one game in
I knew about this whole Eichel situation, but I had no idea wtf the difference was between spinal fusion, and ADR.

Did some cursory research this morning, and damn, I have no idea how either surgery is going to be durable enough to withstand the abuse of professional hockey. It seems like fusion would be worse for hockey, and ADR would be more durable. you're def losing mobility turning two vertebrae into one, and it seems like it's just asking for future issues. ADR seems like they just replace your disk with an artificial one, and it's all done. Am I wrong?

Pretty much. I believe it is also screwed into the other vertebra, in order to minimize slippage, and it pivots on said screw(s), allowing for more motion.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
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Rochester, NY
Pretty much. I believe it is also screwed into the other vertebra, in order to minimize slippage, and it pivots on said screw(s), allowing for more motion.

It depends on the artificial disk. There are a bunch on the market and the way they are installed differs. I don't believe the exact model of artificial disk that Eichel wants has been made public.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
58,087
38,649
Rochester, NY
I knew about this whole Eichel situation, but I had no idea wtf the difference was between spinal fusion, and ADR.

Did some cursory research this morning, and damn, I have no idea how either surgery is going to be durable enough to withstand the abuse of professional hockey. It seems like fusion would be worse for hockey, and ADR would be more durable. you're def losing mobility turning two vertebrae into one, and it seems like it's just asking for future issues. ADR seems like they just replace your disk with an artificial one, and it's all done. Am I wrong?

Kris Letang has been doing fine since his fusion surgery to treat a similar injury...
 
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Doug Prishpreed

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I do wonder if they could get to a point where the Sabres say that he can have ADR with the understanding that the Sabres doctors will never approve him to play after having ADR. And perhaps have Eichel signs an agreement to not sue the Sabres if there are complications due to the ADR down the road.

:dunno:

That sounds like a reasonable solution for both sides.
 

RC51

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Hey, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
well I stayed at a Hilton last night. Took a close shave, long bath, yep cleaned right up. splashed on some Armani after shave then waited all night but Paris never showed up and me with a hand full of Viagra just in case. Whats wrong with her?
 

LongWayDown37

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Mar 8, 2006
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Im just trying to understand based on the info that is available to us. I'm having trouble understanding why Buffalo wont allow him to get the surgery at this point. Future injuries arent really their concern. Trade partners are already established as teams who will accept the ADR. Given those as facts why would you deny the treatment. The liability wont be on Buffalo as he's not going to be a Sabre when the ADR potentially fails as they seem to think it will.
I'm going to make an assumption here.... The decision has a lot more that's gone into it than the snippits of speculation and 3rd party quotes you've gleaned from Darren Dreger... Including who is actually "Established" as trade partners.

I'm also assuming that this isn't black and white. There isn't one side that Loves the ADR surgery and one side that Hates it. Its acceptance of comfort and risk. To be certain, no team has evaluated Jack and the surgery options more closely than the Sabres.

I'm also not going to pretend I know anything about Jack's condition, surgery, disc replacements or whether a couple of Advil are enough. The narrative gets so bonkers.
 

57special

Posting the right way since 2012.
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Best case scenario is that Buffalo doctors get convinced to approve the procedure, Eichel gets it, and trade talks are punted until he's able to start taking contact again.
The best case scenario is that he traded pre surgery, so they don't have to deal with the whole mess. Eichel will only get a greater return than now if he gets the surgery, gets back in playing shape, then plays a significant amount of games(at least 20) at a high level(PPG). I would guess the earliest that can occur would be in March, IF the Sabres ok ADR. At that time, you are also hoping that the few teams that are willing and able to trade for Eichel will still be able to do so. At that time, he will still not get full value in return because GM's will know that he has a neck issue that can reoccur at any time.

If Eichel gets fusion, then it is more likely that he won't be traded till the summer, but you'll be back to where you are now, except that it will be 1 1/2 years since he has played hockey, will do nothing but hurt his value. Complicating matters will be that he will have a NMC kick in.

I just don't get why the Sabres want to take the longest, most drawn out option to move Eichel. I do not see that he will get significantly more of a return if he is traded during the summer with very few, or no games played under his belt. I would argue that he will get the same as has been offered this summer, if not less, as he will have burned off one year of his prime, and his contract. Also, all this controversy about the types of surgery has to be giving GM's cold feet, no matter what procedure is eventually chosen.

All in all, someone has decided to be very stubborn, rather than smart. I sense a lot of ego in this, which makes me wonder if the Pegulas aren't involved in the decision making. In that case KA would have to stay tight lipped (which is smart)....I mean what's he going to say? My boss wants to make an example of Eichel, even if it hurts the team?
 

MarkusKetterer

Shoulda got one game in
It depends on the artificial disk. There are a bunch on the market and the way they are installed differs. I don't believe the exact model of artificial disk that Eichel wants has been made public.

Well yea. I'm just guessing as to which one. None of us know which ADR he wants, other than he wants ADR. For all we know there's different levels of ADR he wants and that some are just above the fusion surgery.
 

Doug Prishpreed

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I just don't get why the Sabres want to take the longest, most drawn out option to move Eichel.

Of course you don't get it, you have none of the pertinent info. The reason you or none of us understand is because we have like 5% of the information.

I literally haven't even seen confirmation that a single 1st round pick has even been offered. What if the highest bid so far is three 2nd rounders? It would make a lot more sense to everyone in that case.
 

57special

Posting the right way since 2012.
Sep 5, 2012
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I'm going to make an assumption here.... The decision has a lot more that's gone into it than the snippits of speculation and 3rd party quotes you've gleaned from Darren Dreger... Including who is actually "Established" as trade partners.

I'm also assuming that this isn't black and white. There isn't one side that Loves the ADR surgery and one side that Hates it. Its acceptance of comfort and risk. To be certain, no team has evaluated Jack and the surgery options more closely than the Sabres.

I'm also not going to pretend I know anything about Jack's condition, surgery, disc replacements or whether a couple of Advil are enough. The narrative gets so bonkers.
Sensible post, but I would say that teams do get medical decisions wrong . Assuming that the Sabres have some expertise in the medical field that no one else does is flat out wrong. They do not employ the best doctors in the world, country, or even the state, at the best of times. Sabres have been poorly run in the past few years making bad hires, and cutting jobs in all sorts of areas. Why do you assume that they would make the best possible medical decisions, and would have an unmatched expertise ?

Kind of far fetched, no?
 
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