Proposal: J.T. Miller to TOR

[patriotfan]

It's a credible effort in the sense that I can see that you are trying to offer legitimate value instead of just dumping prospects you hate and cap eaters.

With that said, it doesn't fill our needs at all. We are a small team, we don't need a Nick Robertson in a trade for a power forward.

Sandin looks fairly promising, but he is a small LD (I believe) which we have a surplus of, and Kerfoot is again a small player. With that said, Kerfoot is fast and we could use some speed so if the other parts worked Kerfoot would be fine.

I think Vancouver would be very disappointed if we don't find an offer that is better value and more fitted to our needs. But again, it's a credible offer.[/QUOTe oh by the way there is no way in hell i go sandin for miller straight up, this is absurd

 

[Nothingbutglass]

No, you have just miss-understood. What I gave the poster was the tools to figure it out. He doesn't need me to do it for him. It is obvious that the massive over-payment that the package ( Sandin + Robertson + Kerfoot + Leafs 1st ) that was the offer for Miller would get better players than Miller. That poster doesn't need a list nor do you.

kind of a jerk post from an outside observer IMO...

 

[settinguptheplay]

No, you have just miss-understood. What I gave the poster was the tools to figure it out. He doesn't need me to do it for him. It is obvious that the massive over-payment that the package ( Sandin + Robertson + Kerfoot + Leafs 1st ) that was the offer for Miller would get better players than Miller. That poster doesn't need a list nor do you.

No, I am pretty sure I understood. He asked a direct question and you word salad him by offering him "tools", which he already possesses', instead of answering his direct question. Basically you dodged the question. In a shockingly disingenuous way by framing it as him lacking the basic skills to answer a question directed at you. Like holy F dude. That is some low brow stuff.

If you don't want to answer the question just say it. Like you did in the final sentence of this reply. Why not lead with that and eliminate the need for the condescending drivel.

 

[Nothingbutglass]

Sandin is on a NHL roster, thats about it. He's not big, cant move and doesnt have the upside offensively to make up for his defensive deficiencies that likely wont improve to a significant level. Robertson is another hobbit that cant skate and has a knee injury and broken leg in his limited showings. This isnt the treasure trove of assets that some are making it out to be.

 

[Vancouver_2010]

Don't take this personally, but the offer is pretty awful, and you expect us to retain?

 

[Leaf Fans]

kind of a jerk post from an outside observer IMO...

Yeah, I don't know why I reply to them.

 

[Leaf Fans]

No, I am pretty sure I understood. He asked a direct question and you word salad him by offering him "tools", which he already possesses', instead of answering his direct question. Basically you dodged the question. In a shockingly disingenuous way by framing it as him lacking the basic skills to answer a question directed at you. Like holy F dude. That is some low brow stuff.

If you don't want to answer the question just say it. Like you did in the final sentence of this reply. Why not lead with that and eliminate the need for the condescending drivel.

That is illogical. If it were word salad by definition you wouldn't understand. If he had the tools as you claim, he wouldn't of asked. The idea was not to derail the thread with players from other team. It should have been obvious to all involved.

 

[Edgelord]

Sandin is on a NHL roster, thats about it. He's not big, cant move and doesnt have the upside offensively to make up for his defensive deficiencies that likely wont improve to a significant level. Robertson is another hobbit that cant skate and has a knee injury and broken leg in his limited showings. This isnt the treasure trove of assets that some are making it out to be.

thank you for your objective and insightful opinion lol

 

[Hoglander]

You may not care what Eichel got, is that because reality is a biatch?

If choosing to ignore what other players fetched recently, then how do we go about estimating a player’s realistic value?

You are kind of missing the point.

Pretend your team is stacked at D, but weak down the middle. Pretend you are looking to trade a dman for a center. Pretend there is multiple teams interested in your dman. Then pretend that one of those teams keeps offering you a winger, and tells you how stupid you are for not accepting it.

 

[Three On Zero]

what quality, miller quality give your head a shake buddy he is a good player but no worth no where near that offer, oh my god

You’re right, he’s easily worth more

 

[I am Canadian]

Sandin is on a NHL roster, thats about it. He's not big, cant move and doesnt have the upside offensively to make up for his defensive deficiencies that likely wont improve to a significant level. Robertson is another hobbit that cant skate and has a knee injury and broken leg in his limited showings. This isnt the treasure trove of assets that some are making it out to be.

Can you please let me know who's going to win the cup this year so I can put 50K on it?

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Can you please let me know who's going to win the cup this year so I can put 50K on it?

Tampa

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

You are kind of missing the point.

Pretend your team is stacked at D, but weak down the middle. Pretend you are looking to trade a dman for a center. Pretend there is multiple teams interested in your dman. Then pretend that one of those teams keeps offering you a winger, and tells you how stupid you are for not accepting it.

Thats fair and makes sense, all leaf fans are saying is in terms of value alone we are giving up enough. Now fit on the other hand isn't there and thats fine.

 

[seanlinden]

That's "injured" Eichel, plus I don't really care what eichel got. The whole point is to trade Miller to upgrade on an organizational weakness, and Toronto doesn't have a centerpiece that fits.

The Canucks need to decide what their actual goal with a Miller trade is.

Is it because they feel they have an abundance of versatile forwards, but really need a solid defenceman? If that's the case, then they've gotta look for a 1-for-1, "hockey type" deal. Maybe Chicago would do Connor Murphy for JT Miller. Maybe you look at the Coyotes, and see if there's a way to use JT Miller to get Jacob Chychrun. Maybe the Hurricanes would entertain a deal around Skjei or Pesce. Maybe the Avs would be interested in a swap around Erik Johnson or Samuel Girard. I'm sure there are names that haven't really jumped to top of mind.

That being said, these types of deals are EXTREMELY difficult to make -- especially in season. You'd probably exclude Colorado & Carolina right off the bat simply because they don't want to mess with their chemistry too much. Arizona probably only looks at Miller in the context of what they could flip him to another team for. Chicago's upside with Miller is also similarly limited, as I don't think they see themselves contending this year or next.

Is it because the Canucks don't see themselves contending this year or next, so want to capitalize on his value now, and get some assets into the organization today, ideally prospects that will help sooner than a 2022 draft pick?

If that's the case, then the Canucks would be foolish to zero themselves in on one particular prospect, given the uncertainty that time brings (both in terms of team needs, and that player's development). If taking this approach, the focus is always on ensuring you get quality pieces... sure, look for guys that are 20, 21, ready to make the jump... but there is a limit on how much you focus on a specific piece... figure out how they fit together once you have enough talent in place.

Is it because you think you're good enough today, but have a situation where Miller wants out and it's hurting team chemistry? That's obviously a much tougher one... and while there may be some truth to him wanting out, I think the far more likely scenario is that they're pursuing the #2 route. It will also likely yield the most value given that Miller is too old with too little term remaining to appeal to a rebuilding team, and good teams generally don't want to substitute front-line players.

 

[elitepete]

The Canucks need to decide what their actual goal with a Miller trade is.

Is it because they feel they have an abundance of versatile forwards, but really need a solid defenceman? If that's the case, then they've gotta look for a 1-for-1, "hockey type" deal. Maybe Chicago would do Connor Murphy for JT Miller. Maybe you look at the Coyotes, and see if there's a way to use JT Miller to get Jacob Chychrun. Maybe the Hurricanes would entertain a deal around Skjei or Pesce. Maybe the Avs would be interested in a swap around Erik Johnson or Samuel Girard. I'm sure there are names that haven't really jumped to top of mind.

That being said, these types of deals are EXTREMELY difficult to make -- especially in season. You'd probably exclude Colorado & Carolina right off the bat simply because they don't want to mess with their chemistry too much. Arizona probably only looks at Miller in the context of what they could flip him to another team for. Chicago's upside with Miller is also similarly limited, as I don't think they see themselves contending this year or next.

Is it because the Canucks don't see themselves contending this year or next, so want to capitalize on his value now, and get some assets into the organization today, ideally prospects that will help sooner than a 2022 draft pick?

If that's the case, then the Canucks would be foolish to zero themselves in on one particular prospect, given the uncertainty that time brings (both in terms of team needs, and that player's development). If taking this approach, the focus is always on ensuring you get quality pieces... sure, look for guys that are 20, 21, ready to make the jump... but there is a limit on how much you focus on a specific piece... figure out how they fit together once you have enough talent in place.

Is it because you think you're good enough today, but have a situation where Miller wants out and it's hurting team chemistry? That's obviously a much tougher one... and while there may be some truth to him wanting out, I think the far more likely scenario is that they're pursuing the #2 route.

Canucks are looking to trade Miller because:
1. We have bled assets for the last 8 years, trading Miller when his value is very high would recoup some of these assets
2. Trading him can fill other holes on the roster (rd that is good in his own zone). Or get us assets that we could use to trade for or draft player(s) to fill these holes.
3. We don't want to be the team to sign him to a huge extension at the age of 30 in 1.5 years, and we also don't want to lose him for nothing.

Based on this it makes a lot of sense for the Canucks to trade Miller.

Also, we are most likely doing a retool. Miller is the oldest of our "core".

 

[seanlinden]

Canucks are looking to trade Miller because:
1. We have bled assets for the last 8 years, trading Miller when his value is very high would recoup some of these assets
2. Trading him can fill other holes on the roster (rd that is good in his own zone). Or get us assets that we could use to trade for or draft player(s) to fill these holes.
3. We don't want to be the team to sign him to a huge extension at the age of 30 in 1.5 years, and we also don't want to lose him for nothing.

Based on this it makes a lot of sense for the Canucks to trade Miller.

Also, we are most likely doing a retool. Miller is the oldest of our "core".

100% agree -- which really falls into the #2 reason -- meaning you trade Miller for the best haul of futures you can get. If the primary goal is to gain assets / liquidate the player -- that needs to be the focus -- not the specifics of the return.

 

[elitepete]

100% agree -- which really falls into the #2 reason -- meaning you trade Miller for the best haul of futures you can get. If the primary goal is to gain assets / liquidate the player -- that needs to be the focus -- not the specifics of the return.

I agree but if there is a great young player like a Necas or Laf being offered, we would rather take that than a quantity package. I'm skeptical on us actually getting someone like that though.

 

[Buzzman17]

I agree but if there is a great young player like a Necas or Laf being offered, we would rather take that than a quantity package. I'm skeptical on us actually getting someone like that though.

I don’t think you would get either of those players for a year and a playoff run of JT Miller. It will be a quantity deal. Something like leafs 1st round pick and a prospect

 

[Boondock]

Cost to upgrade from Kerfoot to miller isn’t Sandin + Robertson + 1st pick. I get that Vancouver fans want 5 firsts of value including the second coming of Bobby Orr, but a a right shot as part of the haul.
I would suggest the deal that gets made is probably Ritchie instead of Kerfoot and maybe Niemela instead of Robertson and drop Sandin. Maybe a dermott for Schenn swap but JT miller as good as he is isn’t getting the kind of demands some Canuck fans here yammer on about needing to get.

That's a bullshit whiney post. Most Canuck fans have been very clear that the package offered didn't address any of the teams needs or areas of concern. No one is making trades to impress an on-line trade forum. The Canucks needs are very clear. Offer a package that carries Miller's value and includes pieces that at least sort of address needs, the only reason Miller would be traded to begin with. Or just whine and post total BS, because that's useful.

 

[elitepete]

I don’t think you would get either of those players for a year and a playoff run of JT Miller. It will be a quantity deal. Something like leafs 1st round pick and a prospect

That's nowhere near enough.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Forsure... especially at 50% retained bringing him to be a $2.6m forward that hover around a point per game.

That being said, I don't think the Rangers see themselves in that position just yet. They're too young. They haven't seen enough of out of Lafrieniere & Kakko yet. They likely view Schneider as a guy who over the next 2 years will solidify himself as guy capable of being a top 4physical presence for a super-cheap rate, likely elevating their 3rd pair behind Trouba & Fox.

While I'm sure they'd love to add a guy like Miller, I think they're more likely to be willing to spend a bit of money, and get a guy with 3-4-5 years of term... whereas a lot of the value Miller will likely bring is that Vancouver can retain.



Honestly, the Canucks are in a seemingly impossible position, IMO. They have a young core (Pettersson 23, Boeser 24, Horvat 26, Garland 25, Hughes 22, Demko 26); but they are for the most part "developed", especially up front. Their defence, outside of Hughes, is a little bit of a mess. OEL & Myers are capable defencemen, but have huge cap hits. To rebuild around prospects doesn't make a ton of sense -- they're going to run out of runway with Pettersson.

As crazy as it sounds, I think they should probably be in the Jacob Chychrun sweepstakes... or maybe a guy like Jake DeBrusk. Somebody who's young and can "join" their core.

Heck, maybe you do a 3-way deal.... Toronto gets Miller @ 50%, Vancouver gets Chychrun, Arizona gets Robertson & Liljegren, futures, and a guy like Ritchie

I love that proposal and I completely agree, we should be after Chychrun and another defenseman at that caliber.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

you want mathews and marner as well, give it up already

You're not funny...what a stupid response.

 

[Ita]

The Canucks need to decide what their actual goal with a Miller trade is.

Is it because they feel they have an abundance of versatile forwards, but really need a solid defenceman? If that's the case, then they've gotta look for a 1-for-1, "hockey type" deal. Maybe Chicago would do Connor Murphy for JT Miller. Maybe you look at the Coyotes, and see if there's a way to use JT Miller to get Jacob Chychrun. Maybe the Hurricanes would entertain a deal around Skjei or Pesce. Maybe the Avs would be interested in a swap around Erik Johnson or Samuel Girard. I'm sure there are names that haven't really jumped to top of mind.

I understand what you are trying to convey here but your valuation is seriously off. How the heck is Connor Murphy or Erik Johnson (Turing 34 in March) the target in a “hockey trade” involving Miller? Makes no sense at all.

 

[seanlinden]

I agree but if there is a great young player like a Necas or Laf being offered, we would rather take that than a quantity package. I'm skeptical on us actually getting someone like that though.

On Laf... I just can't see the Rangers doing it. The guy is a year and a half removed from a #1 OA draft pick. As I had mentioned in another post, the Rangers are young, and VERY young on D. A young team like that, with so much runway infront of them, isn't going to part with core pieces under the age of 25 for immediate help. It's those guys that are going to be relied upon to take the team to the next level.

Honestly, I think you can compare them to the 2016-17, or 2017-18 Leafs to an extent... with a really young Marner, Matthews & Nylander, but still being "led" by some more established players in Bozak, Kadri, JvR and Rielly.

Now, if the Canucks wanted to shed Miller without retention, I can certainly see the Rangers ponying up for that -- they're one of the few teams in a position to do so. 1st round pick should be on the table IMO. Vitali Kravtsov forsure. Zach Jones or Libor Hajek almost definitely.

Ultimately I think they'll probably look at their 6 core defencemen being Trouba, Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Lundkvist & Schneider.

On Necas -- obviously the Canes are a bit further ahead in their development, but I do believe they look at him as a core piece. Good teams generally don't trade core pieces. The Canes don't have a 1st round pick, and also don't have the cap space to acquire Miller (certainly not in a deal for Necas' $863k). I just can't see it.

That being said, if the Canucks do decide they want to cash out on Miller -- no question -- they're going to get a haul of assets to help them long term. The strength of that haul will likely be dictated by how much, if any they're willing to retain / look past next season towards the final year of Pettersson's deal.

If the Rangers & Leafs were the only 2 suitors (they won't be) -- I suspect the haul of assets from Toronto will be better than the haul of assets from the Rangers. The Leafs are more desperate than the Rangers are. The Toronto deal will likely require 50% retention and Nick Ritchie going the other way. The Rangers deal will almost certainly be cleaner; and allow the Canucks to try and supplement next year's roster with more than prospects.

 

[seanlinden]

I understand what you are trying to convey here but your valuation is seriously off. How the heck is Connor Murphy or Erik Johnson (Turing 34 in March) the target in a “hockey trade” involving Miller? Makes no sense at all.

"Hockey trades" are REALLY tough to do these days; especially when the cap needs to be balanced, and you either need to avoid dealing with good teams, or ensure that the other team is receiving a clear upgrade.