Proposal: J.T. Miller to TOR

[seanlinden]

am i taking crazy pills here?

a 1st, sandin AND robertson AND KERFOOT for a player we dont need?!

and yet VANCOUVER is the one that should be saying no?!?!

holy hell man I understand that a lot of people here have a hate boner for the leafs but this is just ridiculous! This is in no way at all fair value and if you think that it is there is a reason you post to these forums instead of actually working at a job for an NHL Team.

so youre meaning to tell me that when retained to roughly the same value, a player that is on a 90 point pace is worth the equivalent of 2 1sts and a high 2nd MORE than a player on a 60 point pace???

youre telling me that to get an extra 30 points out of 1 player we should pay our highest rated defensive prospect, a 1st round pick and one of our most highly touted forward prospects?!?

let me make an example of how ridiculous this sounds.

The leafs will trade you TJ Brodie (25% Retained) for Rathbone, Podkolzin, a 1st and Tyler Myers

One of your top 2 forward prospects, your next big defensive prospect, your 1st and a similar but lesser skilled player.

That sound absolutely ridiculous doesn't it?

Was thinking something along the lines of this...

I get the JT Miller to Toronto sentiment from the Leafs standpoint. He's certainly an upgrade on Kerfoot; however the Leafs are already going to have problems retaining Kerfoot beyond this season. Any deal with Toronto has to come at a minimum of 33% retention to match Kerfoot, and if Toronto's going to "dig deep", it should be 50% so as to create a situation where the Leafs can realistically plan on keeping him next year.

With respect to Toronto's prospects. Sandin isn't one anymore. He's an everyday player, that the organization likely overvalues given that he has Kyle Dubas' first draft pick. If the Canucks want a dman in the deal, it'd likely be Timothy Liljegren heading the other way.'

Ultimately, if there is a JT Miller to Toronto deal, I'd suspect it looks something along the lines of:

Miller at 50% for

- Toronto's 1st
- Timothy Liljegren
- ONE of Nick Robertson or Rodion Amirov
- Alex Kerfoot or Nick Ritchie
- Possibly a Travis Dermott <-> Luke Schenn type of swap if it's Nick Ritchie going the other way.

That's a current 1st, a former 1st who's ready to play (Liljegren), a guy likely valued equivalent to a 1st (Robertson/Amirov), and either a contributing middle-aged roster player (Kerfoot), or a cap-dump / project.

 

[Rude Dog]

Hmmm...love all them Stanley Cup banners hanging behind your user name. 70 and counting isnt' it?

 

[JAK]

I don't get why Vancouver should just stop there. If we are going to help the Leafs, we might as well add Hughes in at 50% too.

A trade has to entice both parties, while Leafs fans may believe the value is there, and perhaps in a vacuum it is, but the parts just are not what we need.

 

[Takumi3000]

I think if we are going to be trading our leading scorer away, it better be for a blue chip prospect in return. I don’t think the Leafs have anything like that no matter how many pieces you try to throw at us. Not interested.

 

[Mergatroidskittle]

k. Im not the one widely devaluing great resources on another team because I suffer from deep-seated insecurity issues.

No you just putting down another fan base cause you suffer from that

 

[Donuts]

toronto not getting miller for that.

take out miller and keep it simple

leafs 1st for oel, dickinson and a free benning

 

[X66]

All I have to say to the Canucks fans saying no here, legit LOL.

This is a MASSIVE overpayment from the Leafs, and Miller is a great player...

Sandin+Robertson are super coveted by the organization.

The 1st is expendable to the leafs.

Kerfoot can be flipped by the Canucks for more assets.

This is a HUGE haul for Miller, don't think the Leafs would do that.

 

[X66]

Just to add...

I'm not saying other teams can't beat this offer, not at all.

But this would be highway robbery for the Canucks moving on from an asset they no longer need.

Sandin alone is entering potential rock-star status for the Leafs, and before his injuries, Robinson was on the same path.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

I think to address Vancouver needs a bit better the deal would have to be

Toronto
Jt Miller @ 50 % retained
Luke schenn

Vancouver
Liljegren
Amirov
2022 1st
Ritchie

Don't really like the deal for either team though

 

[Hoglander]

Van needs centers and RHD. Lilly isn't enticing enough, and downgrading to kerfoot so as to trade him for lesser pieces, doesn't do it for van either. If we are giving up a highly coveted piece and retaining, the return has to suit Van's needs. This isn't to say the offer is crap, it's just "meh" for what Van wants, considering there are plenty of other interested teams.

 

[Cogburn]

All of the pieces that Toronto would give up in a trade are pieces that easily beat by other teams interested teams. New York fans, as much as we butt heads, are offering better offers on the low end.
Miller isn't an asset we "don't need" either, so this ridiculous narrative isn't getting someone a deal for a PPG player that does everything a forward can do for us.

 

[John Johnson]

All I have to say to the Canucks fans saying no here, legit LOL.

This is a MASSIVE overpayment from the Leafs, and Miller is a great player...

Sandin+Robertson are super coveted by the organization.

The 1st is expendable to the leafs.

Kerfoot can be flipped by the Canucks for more assets.

This is a HUGE haul for Miller, don't think the Leafs would do that.

There is nothing that says overpayment to me about that offer. Sandin is really the only enticing piece, and even then hes another undersized LD (which Canucks don't need), not to mention hes not even scoring enough to make up for the fact hes undersized. Roberston might be good, but again, we have plenty of undersized forwards. The 1st will be very late, and if we needed to flip Kerfoot just to get value out of him, then theres no point in adding him to the proposal.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

I could be way off but feel leafs will be out bid by other teams. None of these offers have me jumping for joy.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

I hope Vancouver gets the best possible deal for Miller, but I think they may be a bit disappointed with the actual return. I could be 100% wrong but I don't think I will be.

 

[bigbabybuda]

Sandin is being highly underrated in this thread. LA isn't offering Byfield, Florida isn't going to move Lundell and Laff isnt being offered by NYR. Id really like to know who these blue chip prospects are coming to Vancouver whom are so much better than a 21 year old Dman playing top 4 minutes on one of the best teams in the league.

Before 1000 Vancouver fans come in and say we dont have to move him, we hold all the cards blah blah blah. Its your G.M running around trying to trade everything not named Horvat, Demko or Hughes in a buyers market so I think youre going to be disappointed with what your get ends up being. The package here isn't terribly off the one that got Eichel lol.

Vamcouver fans who are genuine and just say this package just doesnt line up with their needs fair enough, I respect that but those saying its garbage are just being ignorant. Its a very solid package and any 21 year old playing D in the NHL at a top 4 level isn't some through in quantity piece. Hes a damn good quality accusation.

 

[X66]

There is nothing that says overpayment to me about that offer. Sandin is really the only enticing piece, and even then hes another undersized LD (which Canucks don't need), not to mention hes not even scoring enough to make up for the fact hes undersized. Roberston might be good, but again, we have plenty of undersized forwards. The 1st will be very late, and if we needed to flip Kerfoot just to get value out of him, then theres no point in adding him to the proposal.

Sandin is a blue chip prospect that has is already a full time NHLer on an elite team.

Just to put it into perspective:

Sandin in a redraft is closer to 1st overall than he is to 29th(where the Leafs took him)

Robertson in a redraft is also a mid 1st rounder.

The Leafs 1st this year, which will hopefully be 32nd(but 2nd round value either way)

And Kerfoot who can be flipped for more assets.

So, if I was getting 2 top 15 pick values in recent drafts, plus another 1st, plus another valuable asset that can be flipped, that's a huge hit for a team trading the one player.

IN saying that, I'm sure there are teams that will beat this offer, but this is a huge haul for the Canucks.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

I hope Vancouver gets the best possible deal for Miller, but I think they may be a bit disappointed with the actual return. I could be 100% wrong but I don't think I will be.

Some will definitely be disappointed! Going by their proposals (ala Laf + 1st even another + is not realistic).

 

[I am Canadian]

In what world is Sandin, Robertson and a 1st not a quality quality package. Leafs would never do this regardless.

 

[Boondock]

This thread had reaffirmed the fact that Leafs haters are rampant here on HF.

A top prospect, a 1st rounder, and a talented young defencemen are being called "trash" and "bunch of nothing"?

Saying no because it doesn't fill a need for VAN? Fine, I get that. But half the replies in this thread are just pure Leafs hate.

Its the same 3-4 posters. Every fan base has them don't act like this is unique to Vancouver fans or anti-Leaf fans. I could find 10 of the exact same type of responses from every fan base on here, 50 from Leaf fans.

I wouldn't have a lot of interest in this trade package as a Canuck fan. If we are trading Miller, our best trade chip, we need to address our biggest needs. Those needs are:

1 - Improve our RHD (a young high end RHD to pair with Hughes - We have Myers, Schenn, Poolman to play 2nd and 3rd pairing).
2 - Young C prospects - we haven't had a good C in our prospect pool since Pettersson.
3 - Cap flexibility - with almost a decade of terrible management we are right against the cap, have a brutal prospect pool and have a few areas that need improvement. Retaining 25% on Miller ($5.25 @25% = $1.3 retention) we are taking on Kerfoot ($3.5 cap hit) and Sandin $900k, but in need of a new deal. This is a combined cap hit of $5.7 which is higher than Miller's cap hit and would not create the cap flexibility the Canucks really need.
4 - Improvement to the bottom 6 depth
5 - Improvement to our overall prospect pool

So this offer from a Leafs fan doesn't do anything to address priority #1, #2 or #3. Sandin is great and I would love him on my team, but with Hughes signed long term (and being the better player) the #1 LHD spot is filled, OEL is playing really well so far this season, and is signed to a crippling contract so he will be a Canuck for the next 5 year and making over $7million so Sandin is an improvement on the Canucks 3rd pairing LHD. Yes he is better than Rathbone, but we have Rathbone in the system and the hope is he can be an inexpensive upgrade to the 3rd pairing when he is ready. Robertson would be the Canucks top prospect, yes - but that is more of a slag on the Canucks farm than anything else. Robertson is an undersized winger, the Canucks have 20 year old Podkolzin, 21 year old Hoglander, 24 year old Boeser, 25 year old Garland and our 2 best forward prospects are Lockwood a winger and Klimovich another winger. Adding Robertson would improve our prospect winger depth, but an undersized winger that has fought injuries the last 2 seasons isn't really a big need for the Canucks. I like Kerfoot, and he would be a fine player included in a Miller deal, but he isn't going to replace Millers production so he is a useful player, but weakens the Canucks forwards when replacing Miller. I would take Kerfoot in a Miller trade, but his value is more about balancing cap, and less about adding value to the Miller trade.

So you want to discuss the Leaf hate, I question whether the Canuck hate has gotten so strong that no matter what the offer we will see responses like the one I'm responding to.

 

[BCNate]

Sandin is a blue chip prospect that has is already a full time NHLer on an elite team.

Just to put it into perspective:

Sandin in a redraft is closer to 1st overall than he is to 29th(where the Leafs took him)

Robertson in a redraft is also a mid 1st rounder.

The Leafs 1st this year, which will hopefully be 32nd(but 2nd round value either way)

And Kerfoot who can be flipped for more assets.

So, if I was getting 2 top 15 pick values in recent drafts, plus another 1st, plus another valuable asset that can be flipped, that's a huge hit for a team trading the one player.

IN saying that, I'm sure there are teams that will beat this offer, but this is a huge haul for the Canucks.

It's a reasonable fair offer, especially when considering the 1st could very well be in the 20-15 range with the Leafs likely lining up against one of the Florida teams in round 1.
But, Sandin, Roberston, 1st, Kerfoot does not fill any needs for this team, aside from Kerfoot sliding into the 3c role. We do not need an undersized LHD, as good Sandin is. We certainly do not need to get smaller on the wings.

I just don't see Miller getting traded in the next 6 weeks. The Canucks have played .700 hockey, allowed the fewest goals against in the league, and have dramatically improved the PK since BB took over. Goaltending has been excellent, but has come from 3 different goalies. There are about 20 games until the TDL, I expect that the team will not do anything significant before then. I expect this new management team to give this group a pretty long look given how they have played since canning Green.

 

[Petrus]

This trade is a waste of assets. Toronto needs dmen. Muzz’s absence shows that

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Was thinking something along the lines of this...

I get the JT Miller to Toronto sentiment from the Leafs standpoint. He's certainly an upgrade on Kerfoot; however the Leafs are already going to have problems retaining Kerfoot beyond this season. Any deal with Toronto has to come at a minimum of 33% retention to match Kerfoot, and if Toronto's going to "dig deep", it should be 50% so as to create a situation where the Leafs can realistically plan on keeping him next year.

With respect to Toronto's prospects. Sandin isn't one anymore. He's an everyday player, that the organization likely overvalues given that he has Kyle Dubas' first draft pick. If the Canucks want a dman in the deal, it'd likely be Timothy Liljegren heading the other way.'

Ultimately, if there is a JT Miller to Toronto deal, I'd suspect it looks something along the lines of:

Miller at 50% for

- Toronto's 1st
- Timothy Liljegren
- ONE of Nick Robertson or Rodion Amirov
- Alex Kerfoot or Nick Ritchie
- Possibly a Travis Dermott <-> Luke Schenn type of swap if it's Nick Ritchie going the other way.

That's a current 1st, a former 1st who's ready to play (Liljegren), a guy likely valued equivalent to a 1st (Robertson/Amirov), and either a contributing middle-aged roster player (Kerfoot), or a cap-dump / project.

It’s not bad but that offer could be beat easily with one good prospect. If NYR include Schneider we take that deal over this. Again it’s not bad though

 

[Boondock]

k. Im not the one widely devaluing great resources on another team because I suffer from deep-seated insecurity issues.

User name checks out

 

[Bettman Returnz]

In what world is Sandin, Robertson and a 1st not a quality quality package. Leafs would never do this regardless.

It’s not a bad offer. It just doesn’t really check off the boxes of what we really need at this point in time.

 

[Drew311]

This thread had reaffirmed the fact that Leafs haters are rampant here on HF.

A top prospect, a 1st rounder, and a talented young defencemen are being called "trash" and "bunch of nothing"?

Saying no because it doesn't fill a need for VAN? Fine, I get that. But half the replies in this thread are just pure Leafs hate.

Bang on. Shocking coming from the Canucks fanbase.