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BruinDust

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Aug 2, 2005
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maybe stop shitting on analytics every time you see some random HFBoards poster misuse it. It's really frustrating and I think you're smarter than that.

Analytics can tell us how a guy like Heinen performs in whatever sample size of data is available. It can tell us that in certain situations (and maybe limited ice time) how he has performed. In Heinen's case he has put up strong defensive numbers in the situations he has been used in. That suggests that maybe that defensive performance might translate to other situations (like PK) or increased usage. It's not a guarantee, just a positive sign or an indicator. Analytics in this way can be used to help identify trends and see if players are being underused or might be suited to certain assignments. It's then up to a coach to do whatever they want with that data. Again, it's not a guarantee and it's up to the player to maintain that performance when given more minutes or new assignements. Anyone who uses this data to call a player an "elite defensive forward" based on limited data or narrow usage is just misusing the data. You should blame that person and not the entire field of statistics.

I don't, plenty of posts are made here regarding analytics and I don't say jack. It's just in this case the subject is Danton Heinen, and basically the only evidence we have to show he's a useful NHL forward is his analytic numbers. When his eye-test and his usage by his coaches say differently.

I actually like Heinen, but my point was basically him (and other jack-of-all-trades types like him) are hard players for coaches to utilize with a fully-healthy roster. Like I said, he's not an offensive player, yet he's not a defensive player either. If your better at stopping the opposition from scoring than you are at scoring yourself, yet you don't see the ice in PK situations, in a league where half of your 12 forwards will kill penalties on any given night, than your not a defensive forward.
 
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sarge88

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Points aren't important? Weird because that seems to be the default measuring stick :dunno:

As for the rest, players get scratched when the under perform and Heinen is no different. Compete, intensity, whatever you want to call it is in the eyes of the beholder. Two people can have different opinions and honestly neither of them could be wrong. People question Krejci's compete level all the time because of a facial expression lol.

Edit
Wrong thread
 
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DiggityDog

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Nov 2, 2019
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No im not moving the goal post at all. This was my first post in the topic today at 7:36 AM.

"With Ritchie it looks like his production will depend on how much power play time he gets. He’s benefited from Pasta and now krejci missing time. He has 5 goals and 4 assists on the power play, but only one goal and three assists even strength.

While 9 points on the power play in 16 games is very welcomed, I’m not sure it’s sustainable or a very accurate representation of overall play when 70% of your production has been a result of the man advantage.

A lot is going to depend on if he stays on the first power play unit when krejci comes back. If the Bruins take him off it then he will almost certainly see a drop in production."


Then you just came in and said I'm moving the goal post off a comment that literally said the exact same thing

"You say you understand what I’m saying, but by your response it is clear you don’t. I’m saying 70% of your points as power play points is not a sustainable percentage and something has to give. That’s regardless if he stays on the first power play unit or not."

How is that moving the goal post if im saying the same thing as I did from the start of the conversation at 7:36AM?
How does Krejci’s eventual return to PP1 effect Ritchie when they both have vastly different roles on the unit?

Krejci likely won’t even be on PP1 once Gryz returns in all honesty.
 
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DominicT

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Sep 6, 2009
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dom.hockey
No im not moving the goal post at all. This was my first post in the topic today at 7:36 AM.

"With Ritchie it looks like his production will depend on how much power play time he gets. He’s benefited from Pasta and now krejci missing time. He has 5 goals and 4 assists on the power play, but only one goal and three assists even strength.

While 9 points on the power play in 16 games is very welcomed, I’m not sure it’s sustainable or a very accurate representation of overall play when 70% of your production has been a result of the man advantage.

A lot is going to depend on if he stays on the first power play unit when krejci comes back. If the Bruins take him off it then he will almost certainly see a drop in production."


Then you just came in and said I'm moving the goal post off a comment that literally said the exact same thing

"You say you understand what I’m saying, but by your response it is clear you don’t. I’m saying 70% of your points as power play points is not a sustainable percentage and something has to give. That’s regardless if he stays on the first power play unit or not."

How is that moving the goal post if im saying the same thing as I did from the start of the conversation at 7:36AM? Pretty consistently saying 70% of your power play points coming from the power play isnt sustainable IF he is on it or not going forward.

Well I apologize. I guess moving the goalposts wasn't the correct term. But you did start with a misrepresentation of the facts.
 
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BruinsNetwork

Registered User
Jan 8, 2021
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maybe stop shitting on analytics every time you see some random HFBoards poster misuse it. It's really frustrating and I think you're smarter than that.

Analytics can tell us how a guy like Heinen performs in whatever sample size of data is available. It can tell us that in certain situations (and maybe limited ice time) how he has performed. In Heinen's case he has put up strong defensive numbers in the situations he has been used in. That suggests that maybe that defensive performance might translate to other situations (like PK) or increased usage. It's not a guarantee, just a positive sign or an indicator. Analytics in this way can be used to help identify trends and see if players are being underused or might be suited to certain assignments. It's then up to a coach to do whatever they want with that data. Again, it's not a guarantee and it's up to the player to maintain that performance when given more minutes or new assignements. Anyone who uses this data to call a player an "elite defensive forward" based on limited data or narrow usage is just misusing the data. You should blame that person and not the entire field of statistics.

Good post and it sucks that for whatever reason, people are blatantly against data. Like, not disagree with the findings, just flat out against data because they do not understand it and do not care to understand it.

That said, I get their frustration to because unfortunately most of the constant analytics proponent are NOT like you in this post. They don’t suggest using it as another tool, rather that it’s the end-all-be-all method of evaluation and a player like Heinen is great because his metrics say so.

I’m obviously a fan of Heinen, always have been and always will. In fact I think he’s a solid top-nine forward when asked to be that and given the opportunity to stick on that role. That’s besides the point though because for whatever reason both sides of this f*cking argument stick their heads in the sand and try to say: “Analytics are for the birds” or “eye test is dumb, all the big old dumb hockey men have no idea what they’re doing!”

You need both of these metrics. Anyone discounting either one of those tools has no idea what they’re doing. You need to utilize everything and like I said, it’s too bad you're in the minority with how you view analytics because you’re right. It’s come to the point where people actually hate using analytics because they oppose the users of them so much.
 

ON3M4N

Ignores/60 = Elite
Dec 13, 2015
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Connecticut
I'm confused as to why we are even talking about Heinen and Ritchie in this thread. Like totally confused.

Either I am getting senile in my old age, or I don't fully understand the thread title.

Someone please help me understand?

There's some twist and turns, but I believe the first mention of Heinen came around the talk of Rakell. Someone mentioned that Heinen had more goals. Today's Heinen onslaught was because I had mentioned Heinen isn't as bad a people make him out to be lol.
 

kjpm

Registered User
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May 28, 2011
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Let's stop beating around the bush.

Kase for Heinen straight up. We clearly miss talking about Heinen here and meanwhile the Kase thread is dead in the water.



Kidding, only kidding! Imagine the discussion though :laugh:
 

Smitty93

Registered User
Dec 6, 2012
8,258
9,441
Good post and it sucks that for whatever reason, people are blatantly against data. Like, not disagree with the findings, just flat out against data because they do not understand it and do not care to understand it.

That said, I get their frustration to because unfortunately most of the constant analytics proponent are NOT like you in this post. They don’t suggest using it as another tool, rather that it’s the end-all-be-all method of evaluation and a player like Heinen is great because his metrics say so.

I’m obviously a fan of Heinen, always have been and always will. In fact I think he’s a solid top-nine forward when asked to be that and given the opportunity to stick on that role. That’s besides the point though because for whatever reason both sides of this f*cking argument stick their heads in the sand and try to say: “Analytics are for the birds” or “eye test is dumb, all the big old dumb hockey men have no idea what they’re doing!”

You need both of these metrics. Anyone discounting either one of those tools has no idea what they’re doing. You need to utilize everything and like I said, it’s too bad you're in the minority with how you view analytics because you’re right. It’s come to the point where people actually hate using analytics because they oppose the users of them so much.

The biggest problem data scientists have is translating the numbers into a qualitative expression that the general public can understand. A lot of people just don't understand sports analytics, and the people who directly work with those analytics and aggregate them have to help educate people. There needs to be more use of the 'Explain It Like I'm Five' model.
 
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ON3M4N

Ignores/60 = Elite
Dec 13, 2015
13,513
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Connecticut
The biggest problem data scientists have is translating the numbers into a qualitative expression that the general public can understand. A lot of people just don't understand sports analytics, and the people who directly work with those analytics and aggregate them have to help educate people. There needs to be more use of the 'Explain It Like I'm Five' model.

Most of the major analytic sites have a glossary with explanations of what the stat is. I'd say 2-3 years ago I was very much not interested in analytics and didn't care for them, but as I've read and learned more about them the more I see their value. As @BruinsNetwork said though you need to have a balance.
 

veganbruin

Registered User
Sep 20, 2013
3,290
3,529
Boston, MA
I'm confused as to why we are even talking about Heinen and Ritchie in this thread. Like totally confused.

Either I am getting senile in my old age, or I don't fully understand the thread title.

Someone please help me understand?
My fault, I wanted to trade for Rakell, someone mentioned Heinen was out producing Rakell, but I didn’t take it as a slight to Rakell. I liked Heinen. Then more followed.

I still think Rakell should be a target and won’t cost us the farm.
 

BruinsFanSince94

The Perfect Fan ™
Sep 28, 2017
32,709
43,380
New England
Let's stop beating around the bush.

Kase for Heinen straight up. We clearly miss talking about Heinen here and meanwhile the Kase thread is dead in the water.



Kidding, only kidding! Imagine the discussion though :laugh:

I’d do it. We would get an actual nhl player who plays back. Kase should consider retirement at this point. It’s a shame because he has shown potential when he’s been healthy but that is just not possible for him.
 
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Tbaybruin

Registered User
Feb 2, 2016
4,188
4,642
Now you're moving the goalposts.

Serious question: Are you just looking at stats/analytics? Because 1) Krejci hasn't been on PP! for years unless the situation calls for it, and 2) Ritchie is doing exactly what he is asked to do and cause shit in front of the net.

A guy who is suppose to cause those problems for the netminder, isn't suppose to be the goal scorer, he's there so that others can score.

Example: How much better would their offense be if their defensemen could hit the damn net once in a while? You know, actually score or create second chance opportunities? They have just 2 out of 9 that have played this season hit the net on more than 50% of their attempted shots - Grzelcyk and Lauzon - and they're both injured. The blue line has scored just 4 goals this season - 32 last season, and I don't even want to get into how few second chance opportunities they've created- it's laughable. Those are the opportunities Ritchie should be banging home, or getting a stick on to deflect, or having one hit him on the way in.

Analytics is a great tool. When combined with all the analytics. But they also have to be used in combination with the eye test and a general understanding of what the player's role is.

I will leave it at that.
Love this. Have you seen the legends video of Mike Bossy? He talks about hitting the net and how important it is. Seems simple but for some reason it isn’t with a lot of players.
 

Number8

Registered User
Oct 31, 2007
18,633
18,648
I'm confused as to why we are even talking about Heinen and Ritchie in this thread. Like totally confused.

Either I am getting senile in my old age, or I don't fully understand the thread title.

Someone please help me understand?
I think someone was going on about Eichel, auto correct kicked in and just de-railed things big time. I think all the EI's and CH's got muddled.

You know Dom -- oooh.... look.... a squirrel.

Where was I? Oh yes, our attention span just isn't that long.
 

RoccoF14

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Based on what? They absolutely have the ability to acquire both. It’s not a matter of do they have enough, it’s do they want to spend it?
Sure, you can damage the current roster and completely gut your draft capital for the next 2+ years to acquire both players, but what's the sense in doing that?
 

BergyWho37

Only The Strong Will Survive (Never Give Up)
Jun 18, 2012
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True North
I’ve been saying this. I want Arvidsson and Ekholm. Now we are top notch contenders .
DeBrusk Grzelcyk Vaakanainen 1st
possibly another prospect

Nashville flips Grzelcyk for prospect and or a pick

Keeps us from losing another forward and Seattle basically a choice between Lauzon or Zboril
 
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RoccoF14

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DeBrusk Grzelcyk Vaakanainen 1st
possibly another prospect

Nashville flips Grzelcyk for prospect and or a pick

Keeps us from losing another forward and Seattle basically a choice between Lauzon or Zboril
That offer won't get it done. If you are Nashville, why would you make a deal to flip Grizz, for a pick when you can simply trade directly for a prospect and/or pick with another team?

People forget that other teams are going to be making offers as well. If you are Nashville, you can do way better by splitting the transactions and taking the best offer on each player.
 
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