Confirmed with Link: It's Started! (Management firings)

[Flying Dego]

I’m pretty sure you’d be hard pressed to find someone worse. Although, I didn’t think they could hire someone worse than 2017 JR and they arguably did.


How is Dubas worse at player evaluation than Ron friggin Hextall? Everything that idiot touched turned to **** except Rakell.

Listen. I want to make this as clear as I can. I will be enraged if you actually like a GM of ours.

You praising a GM would throw me into a mental breakdown with me questioning reality.

 

[The Old Master]

Amen.

Shit, they were paying Hextall $3.5 million a year to have agoraphobia. I'll take $300k and do no worse of a job.


*Trade Granlund and a second for an expiring contract at the draft

Is probably much more realistic.

didn't we just get rid of the guy that would do that?

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Why do people want Dubas? He’s arguably worse than Hextall at managing assets and player evaluation.

Youth?

 

[K Fleur]

Dubas built the Leafs the way a teenager builds a team in EA NHL23 Be a GM Mode.

I don't think I'd like him here, but I'm apathetic at this point really.

 

[The Old Master]

Sully might not want to coach differently, but the players clearly don’t want to play differently either. They too want to keep playing this uptempo style even though they are no longer capable of doing so. You think Malkin has ever changed his style of play?

a good coach has ways to get around that. we just need to find one.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Dubas built the Leafs the way a teenager builds a team in EA NHL23 Be a GM Mode.

I don't think I'd like him here, but I'm apathetic at this point really.

They are strong in every area this year. He's clearly a good GM.
People just pick and choose his worst moves over 7 years and call it a day, because it suits their narrative.
They don't even know/remember his good moves, yet somehow don't hesitate to assess him with utter finality.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They are strong in every area this year. He's clearly a good GM.
People just pick and choose his worst moves over 7 years and call it a day, because it suits their narrative.
They don't even know/remember his good moves, yet somehow don't hesitate to assess him with utter finality.

I realy don't think that is it, I think Dubas has some pretty clear red flags and flaws that make people hesitant:

1. The Leafs haven't won shit with him. If he's even available this off-season, it will be because the Leafs once again lose early in the playoffs.
2. He has made incredibly questionable roster decisions based on loyalty from another organization. People criticize the Penguins for bringing back retreads of guys who had success with the Penguins, at least they're not bringing back retreads from juniors.

 

[TimmyD]

If I had to guess, Sully's kept unless the new FO brings a clear upgrade to FSG worth potentially eating the $25+ million owed to Sully. Ownership's not gonna risk lighting that amount of cash on fire with playoff revenue up in the air and attendance ready to plummet. Sully has direct input on who the new GM is gonna be, so I'm sure he'll be present during the interview process. That likely means the new GM is gonna be someone open or downright willing to keep Zucker and Dumo around because Sullivan thinks extremely highly of them. I still think Jarry's as sure a bet to return as you can get because the FA options aren't clearly better and trying to imagine this team swinging a deal for Saros is impossible to me.

Jake-Sid-Rust
Zucker-Geno-Granlund
DOC-Poehling-???
???-Carter-???

Dumo-Letang
Petts-Petry
Smith/POJ-Rutta

Jarry
CDS

Say hello to your 2023-24 Pittsburgh Penguins! One Sidney Crosby injury away from a top-10, maybe top-5 pick!

As much as we complain about Sullivan (and we definitely have a right to) another team would definitely hire him so eating the contract wouldn’t be something they need to worry about

 

[SEALBound]

You've got to actually have a draft philosophy of taking skill/hockey IQ over picking the "safest" player available, though.

Can't hit a homerun when you're content to just bunt for singles to be safe.

I believe he will stay in Jersey, but his RFA deal for next season is 10 million. Going to be hard to make it work here

I think by far my biggest criticism of Dubas is how he took over a team with a terrific future but made unnecessary moves that forced the expectations of a top contender on the team too quickly. The Leafs were progressing really well in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 under Lamoriello, with having an absolutely massive young core of forwards under 30 (Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Kadri, JVR, Hyman, Brown and Kapanen).

When Dubas took over, he threw a massive wrench in that entire structure and expectations by signing Tavares when the Leafs just didn't need him. To me, that was the beginning of the end for the Leafs being a true top contender. Their cap structure instantly became problematic with an $11 million Tavares and a young core that was going to need to be paid soon. Then after the Nylander holdout became dicey, he bent over backwards to give Marner and Matthews an ultra player friendly extension.

Any sort of cap constraints Dubas has had to work with came about by his own decisions. I don't give him credit for Toronto based veterans like Spezza and Simmonds signing for league minimum to play with the Leafs. He had an amazing situation when he took over the Leafs in 2018 and really hasn't done that much with it.

Yeah but if you want Matthews, Tavaras, Marner, and Nylander on your team, you have to give them those deals. It's not unlike the Penguins after 2009 when Malkin and Sid were making the big dollars. It became difficult to fill out the rest of the roster with the players needed to actually win (and not rely solely on the talent of your studs). It wasn't until the 2015 timeframe where the cap had gone up enough that you could bring in a guy like Kessel and still have the room for depth guys like Hagelin and Horny. Course, they benefited greatly from 4 <$1mil deals.

Dubas had to go out and find value players. Getting that many value players on the roster to win is tough. Especially when you have guys like Hyman that price themselves out of town.

But I agree that the Tavaras deal did not help. That's such a tough deal though because how often do you get to sign a guy like Tavaras? At the time I don't think they viewed Kadri as the true 2C they needed. He was up and down IIRC. Adding the firepower of Tavaras was certainly attractive.

I would have to imagine that Dubas’ extension is keyed to the Leafs’ postseason. It’s be supremely weird to not extend the GM if they go on a decent run.

They kinda got gifted a meh Lightning squad. He may be okay, lol.

 

[TimmyD]

I know it's the fun thing to do on HF is to make fun of Dubas, but honestly he's done a good job in Toronto, both in terms of identifying areas of weakness and addressing them, and identifying "cheap" options to fill out a lineup's depth with limited remaining cap space.

When he first got to Toronto their blueline was their clear area of weakness. He's since added Brodie, Muzzin (hurt now), Giordano, and McCabe. Their defense may not be top 5 in hockey still, but it's been vastly improved from the one he inherited.

He also has been good at finding bargain contracts that actually produce. Bunting is producing like Bryan Rust/Jason Zucker but for around $900k per year. Jarnkrok paced for over 20 goals this year for half the cost we're paying guys to produce that. David Kampf is the kind of defensive gem that Sullivan absolutely loves burying in D-zone minutes and is making $1.5 million.

Plus, the idea Toronto was too "soft" for the playoffs, at least Dubas has tried to rectify. Some misses (adding Foligno for a 1st), but some look to be good additions like O'Reilly and Acciari.

Every GM is going to make mistakes or whiff on some moves. But the difference between Dubas and what we've gotten in Pittsburgh lately is he has a clear vision and he also sees what his team's weaknesses are and actually addresses them rather than just operate around the fringes.

I think your last point is a great one. Give me a guy who has a vision or an identity and makes moves that fit that vision. I’d be happy just having that. I mean can anyone tell me what Hextall’s plan or vision was? Outside of being the real life version of the cowardly lion I couldn’t tell you what his identity is as a GM

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I realy don't think that is it, I think Dubas has some pretty clear red flags and flaws that make people hesitant:

1. The Leafs haven't won shit with him. If he's even available this off-season, it will be because the Leafs once again lose early in the playoffs.
2. He has made incredibly questionable roster decisions based on loyalty from another organization. People criticize the Penguins for bringing back retreads of guys who had success with the Penguins, at least they're not bringing back retreads from juniors.

I just care about his average. We need a GM with a higher average here. And that's clearly high among GM's. If it wasn't then he wouldn't be able to build these strong teams.
We don't have the luxury of worrying about his playoff record as Pens fans anymore. We're struggling just to make it in now. Our core isn't elite anymore.
Probably best to get someone that gives us the best chance to get in again and worry about that 2 week 1st round after that.

Some of those series losses were so marginal and a lot of the opponents were such high quality that it seems dumb to blame Dubas for the players underperforming for a few clutch games.
He has no way of knowing what guys will disappear on him when it matters most.

Not saying he's perfect. There's good candidates out there. Maybe that Tulsky guy in Carolina is better. But he's surely one of the smartest, most motivated options. He's an active problem solver. He doesn't just sit on his thumb like Hextall. He's not afraid to use picks to land big fish.
And yeah he has a weakness to Soo Greyhounds players, but let's not pretend that the good moves he made don't outweigh those outliers.

Let's say we hire him. It's not like he's gonna bring Murray. Which ex-Greyhounds are we so scared of him signing or trading for? Some depth crap like Simmonds? Is it even relevant for us in 2023-24?

 

[Pens x]

Listen. I want to make this as clear as I can. I will be enraged if you actually like a GM of ours.

You praising a GM would throw me into a mental breakdown with me questioning reality.

Don’t hire another schmuck and I’ll like the guy.

 

[Gurglesons]

The bolded is a bit disingenuous. Muzzin suffered what looks like a career ending injury. Otherwise that deal was not "a year or so of Muzzin". And that's a perfect example of a win-win trade for both sides. Toronto badly needed a physical #2/3 D-man and that's what Muzzin brought them.

The Marchment for Malgin deal is also a bit disingenuous because Marchment hadn't proven anything at that point. Marchment was basically a AHL call-up who provided physicality at that point. That's like criticizing the Pens for moving on from Sam Lafferty if Lafferty turned into a 20 goal scorer elsewhere. No one would have predicted it at the time of the trade.

The only "bad" trade Dubas has made is the 1st for about 15 games of Foligno. And while the price was certainly bad, the mindset behind it wasn't. At least it was an attempt to address a glaring need at the time (physicality to play in the top nine).

That's the thing I like about Dubas. Not that he wins every trade he makes, but there's actually a REASON for every trade he makes. You may not agree with the price, but at least you can see the "why" of why the deal was made within the context of the Leafs' needs. It's a nice change from our club randomly acquiring guys we don't really need or who don't fit what we want them to do.

We can sit here and criticize our management for burning Addison, Gus and multiple 1sts and then give Toronto credit.

Dubas has been an okay GM and he’s had good moves along with his bad, but then so has Hextall if we are taking that route. Rodrigues replaced McCann. Carter was great for a year or two. Rakell. Etc.

Dubas is fine, but not exciting. He’s boring.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Don’t hire another schmuck and I’ll like the guy.

What kinda team results would have him transcend schmuck status?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I realy don't think that is it, I think Dubas has some pretty clear red flags and flaws that make people hesitant:

1. The Leafs haven't won shit with him. If he's even available this off-season, it will be because the Leafs once again lose early in the playoffs.

This can be said of pretty much every team other than like 5 over the past decade. Would that be a red flag for any GM of a team not named Tampa, Chicago, LA, Colorado, Pittsburgh, Washington or St. Louis?

2. He has made incredibly questionable roster decisions based on loyalty from another organization. People criticize the Penguins for bringing back retreads of guys who had success with the Penguins, at least they're not bringing back retreads from juniors.

Which retreads from juniors were bad additions? Murray's the only one I can think of and I think that was more of a gamble on Murray regaining his 2016/2017 form than it was because Dubas had him in the Soo back in like 2011 or 2012.

Him bringing in Bunting is hardly a bad move. Simmonds was brought in, but as a bit player who only dresses when they need a bit of muscle. The 13th forward being meh hardly makes or breaks a team.

Who else is there?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Dubas is fine, but not exciting. He’s boring.

This is where I disagree. The one thing I like about him is he's willing to address an area of weakness. Does it always work out? No. But at least he's proactive about it.

Defense corps sucks? Bring in Brodie, Muzzin, Barrie, McCabe, etc.

Forward group a bit too much "skill" and not enough "grit" for the playoffs? Bring in guys like Bunting, O'Reilly, and Acciari.

Team is a bit too top heavy and needs either an extra top 6 player or a high end 3rd liner? Brings in O'Reilly.

Not every move was a homerun. But every move was made to address what was perceived as a weakness or flaw in the roster prior to the move. I'd take that over the Pens overpaying for middling top six wingers all the time or adding reclamation defensemen who are getting up there in age.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is where I disagree. The one thing I like about him is he's willing to address an area of weakness. Does it always work out? No. But at least he's proactive about it.

Defense corps sucks? Bring in Brodie, Muzzin, Barrie, McCabe, etc.

Forward group a bit too much "skill" and not enough "grit" for the playoffs? Bring in guys like Bunting, O'Reilly, and Acciari.

Team is a bit too top heavy and needs either an extra top 6 player or a high end 3rd liner? Brings in O'Reilly.

Not every move was a homerun. But every move was made to address what was perceived as a weakness or flaw in the roster prior to the move. I'd take that over the Pens overpaying for middling top six wingers all the time or adding reclamation defensemen who are getting up there in age.

Being a better GM than Rutherford and Hextall ain’t hard tbh.

Dubas is fine. I’d much rather get a fresh voice or double down on Botts or Ventura.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think a good rule of thumb is whatever candidates the Pittsburgh media endorse, we should stay far far away from.

 

[Pens x]

What kinda team results would have him transcend schmuck status?

Not making the playoffs and acquiring Granlund.

I think the expansion draft, the Carter extension, refusing to address our tandem in net, some free agent signings, and not improving the team this year until the day before the draft also shows he’s a moron.

 

[eXile3]

They need someone who is analytical and disciplined in what they do. If they hire another dinosaur from the good old boys club you will just see more failure.

 

[Pens x]

They need someone who is analytical and disciplined in what they do. If they hire another dinosaur from the good old boys club you will just see more failure.

You can’t hire someone too green or they won’t stand up to king Sullivan.

I heard FSG is changing the name of the arena to Sullivan’s Ice Palace.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Yeah but if you want Matthews, Tavaras, Marner, and Nylander on your team, you have to give them those deals. It's not unlike the Penguins after 2009 when Malkin and Sid were making the big dollars. It became difficult to fill out the rest of the roster with the players needed to actually win (and not rely solely on the talent of your studs). It wasn't until the 2015 timeframe where the cap had gone up enough that you could bring in a guy like Kessel and still have the room for depth guys like Hagelin and Horny. Course, they benefited greatly from 4 <$1mil deals.

Dubas had to go out and find value players. Getting that many value players on the roster to win is tough. Especially when you have guys like Hyman that price themselves out of town.

But I agree that the Tavaras deal did not help. That's such a tough deal though because how often do you get to sign a guy like Tavaras? At the time I don't think they viewed Kadri as the true 2C they needed. He was up and down IIRC. Adding the firepower of Tavaras was certainly attractive.

They kinda got gifted a meh Lightning squad. He may be okay, lol.

SIgning JT at 11M forced him to have to pay Matthews and Marner ~11M as well. IMO, if JT wasn't there it would have been much easier to sign both for less.

 

[Pens x]

Deadspin | Brian Burke is the biggest fraud in the NHL

Deadspin | Brian Burke is the biggest fraud in the NHL

deadspin.com

Brian Burke really is the NHL’s biggest fraud.

 

[SomeDude]

This is where I disagree. The one thing I like about him is he's willing to address an area of weakness. Does it always work out? No. But at least he's proactive about it.

Defense corps sucks? Bring in Brodie, Muzzin, Barrie, McCabe, etc.

Forward group a bit too much "skill" and not enough "grit" for the playoffs? Bring in guys like Bunting, O'Reilly, and Acciari.

Team is a bit too top heavy and needs either an extra top 6 player or a high end 3rd liner? Brings in O'Reilly.

Not every move was a homerun. But every move was made to address what was perceived as a weakness or flaw in the roster prior to the move. I'd take that over the Pens overpaying for middling top six wingers all the time or adding reclamation defensemen who are getting up there in age.

He also works for the richest team in the league who has no issue paying players to become injured to go on LTIR or in the minors.

Is FSG that kind of owner? That remains to be seen, but I don’t know how anyone can look as Dubas’ body of work having a legit top 3 player in Matthews supported with other Elite players like Marner and the good Nylander and still having never made it out of the 1st round and pine for the guy running your team.

If people were upset with Hextall’s nepotism, Dubas is just as bad. Anyone that has ever played for, or even attended a SOO Greyhounds game, can play or work for him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Not making the playoffs and acquiring Granlund.

I think the expansion draft, the Carter extension, refusing to address our tandem in net, some free agent signings, and not improving the team this year until the day before the draft also shows he’s a moron.

No, I meant the next GM. What's his bar?
I definitely don't need clarification on your Hextall views lol.