Confirmed with Link: It's Started! (Management firings)

[Icarium]

Even if you discount what Rossi and Yohe wrote this morning, it was painfully obvious to anyone watching the team that there was a disconnect between Sullivan and Hextall.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to see how Sullivan does this year before casting him aside.

There was a disconnect between Dubas and Shanahan, yet the Maple Leafs got 111 points and finally won a playoff round. And now are thinking of firing their coach in addition to the GM because they are not content with those achievements. The Penguins, on the other hand, think that trying the exact same thing but with an even older roster will somehow work this time around because Sullivan is, I kid you not, "the Winter Classic’s unofficial mayor".

 

[Pancakes]

Once again the amount of power that doofus is reportedly having in this org if you take that article seriously is absolutely frightening.

But, can’t wait to hear about how he’s a great coach next year and WHOooOo could ever replace him.

My takeaway from that article (since I know Sullivan isn't getting fired just yet) is that I want the next GM to be on the same page with him. Or at least communicate with him.

Can't have a huge disconnect between gm and coach.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I also think Yohe and Rossi’s “sources” is Sullivan, and perhaps Sid as well (why Sullivan is universally praised by them regardless of what he does)….you get a very biased and controlled narrative however, particularly around the FO, so I don’t believe a lot of that story

It's probably not one of them directly, but someone who could act as a conduit. For Sid, I'd guess his agent, Pat Brisson. Brisson can talk to the media, provide background and details, but Sid can keep his distance.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Even if you discount what Rossi and Yohe wrote this morning, it was painfully obvious to anyone watching the team that there was a disconnect between Sullivan and Hextall.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to see how Sullivan does this year before casting him aside.

Even putting his super dubious player usage aside, he's lost the passion for the job. He's at a point where he accepts losing easily and is very slow to make changes when the team is dying. He makes tame excuses without addressing what's actually making them lose. He has gotten very attached to the longer tenured players and that is heavily influencing his decisions. He's taken his eye off the ball, so to speak. He was nothing like this during the Cups.
When Ian Cole f***ed up in game 4 of 2017, with the Pens up 3-0 and pushing for the sweep, he ripped Cole a new one on the bench. That's the Sullivan I miss.
We don't need what he's become. We need someone hungry and thrilled to be here...someone that still values accountability and inspires the players.
The team often takes on the personality of the coach. This team was lifeless in an unacceptable number of games.

Everything's become too comfortable here for the players. There has to be that healthy fear that your spot isn't secure regardless of performance. And for the prospects, it's important for them to have hope that what they do in Wilkes matters, not that you're blocked by Jeff Carter or the ghost of Teddy Blueger.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

There was a disconnect between Dubas and Shanahan, yet the Maple Leafs got 111 points and finally won a playoff round. And now are thinking of firing their coach in addition to the GM because they are not content with those achievements. The Penguins, on the other hand, think that trying the exact same thing but with an even older roster will somehow work this time around because Sullivan is, I kid you not, "the Winter Classic’s unofficial mayor".

By all indications, Dubas wasn't fired because of results, but because of a power struggle.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

My takeaway from that article (since I know Sullivan isn't getting fired just yet) is that I want the next GM to be on the same page with him. Or at least communicate with him.

Can't have a huge disconnect between gm and coach.

Wasn't everyone talking about communication breakdowns between Sullivan and JR by the end, too?

I wonder if this could possibly be a two way street?

 

[Malkinstheman]

Dubas is the only one I can see that would get rid of Sullivan. If he comes here, he will have full antonomy to do whatever he wants. I don't think there's any chance FSG let's Darche/Greeley boot Sullivan

Wasn't everyone talking about communication breakdowns between Sullivan and JR by the end, too?

I wonder if this could possibly be a two way street?

Nah there's no way. It's two management teams that are at fault. Sullivan shits gold and it's their fault if they don't agree with his thoughts

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Even putting his super dubious player usage aside, he's lost the passion for the job.

Sorry, but I stopped here. You're inferring a lot based on whatever observations you've made during the season.

You have no way of actually knowing this.

Just because someone appears to be calmer does not mean they care less.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Wasn't everyone talking about communication breakdowns between Sullivan and JR by the end, too?

I wonder if this could possibly be a two way street?

I don't know if there were communication breakdowns, but JR was always like a gambler. He hit a hot streak, but he ran cold late. It was less of a plan and more of a randomness.

That said, if there were actual communication breakdowns, it's always a two-way street. Same with Sullivan-Hextall.

I have never, ever said Sullivan was blameless. I think he deserves a lot of the blame for the 2019 loss to the Islanders and bubble loss to Montreal. I think he deserves a reprieve for the goaltending fiascos in 2021 against the Islanders and 2022 against the Rangers (no one's winning with Louis "Spicy Pork" Domingue; the Penguins just turned into a pumpkin while up 3-1 instead of earlier in the series).

I think this past year was such a cluster that he gets one more year while working with someone who would conceivably have a plan to inject life into the roster. If he still fails, can him.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

By all indications, Dubas wasn't fired because of results, but because of a power struggle.

It seems the way things went was

Board
Shana
DUBAS

Dubas wanted it to be
Board
Shanahan Dubas

Which I do get imagine having a guy just 1 above you that says no or yes to everything.

I'd be down to hire Dubas and be like pick your AGM.

One rule we want to be competitive these next couple years go for it.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Sorry, but I stopped here. You're inferring a lot based on whatever observations you've made during the season.

You have no way of actually knowing this.

Just because someone appears to be calmer does not mean they care less.

And the counter is that you don't know either. It's a message board: it's literally the definition of speculation.

But we do know that this team was lifeless this year. But that certainly cannot be on Mike Sullivan. He's a 2x Cup winner and can do no wrong

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't know if there were communication breakdowns, but JR was always like a gambler. He hit a hot streak, but he ran cold late. It was less of a plan and more of a randomness.

That said, if there were actual communication breakdowns, it's always a two-way street. Same with Sullivan-Hextall.

I have never, ever said Sullivan was blameless. I think he deserves a lot of the blame for the 2019 loss to the Islanders and bubble loss to Montreal. I think he deserves a reprieve for the goaltending fiascos in 2021 against the Islanders and 2022 against the Rangers (no one's winning with Louis "Spicy Pork" Domingue; the Penguins just turned into a pumpkin while up 3-1 instead of earlier in the series).

I think this past year was such a cluster that he gets one more year while working with someone who would conceivably have a plan to inject life into the roster. If he still fails, can him.

I actually agree with some of that. But this idea that Mike Sullivan is somehow both an amazing coach but gee golly shucks just keeps on having these unavoidable and insurmountable issues every single year for five straight that just can't be overcome is... dubious. At best. Of course these issues exist but is he actually this big difference maker or isn't he? He can't get out there and play but to hear people tell it he's this indispensable factor that gives them an edge. Well... where is it?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Sorry, but I stopped here.

Okay. Don't bother responding in the future. I'll be "stopping here" too.

 

[Andy99]

Even putting his super dubious player usage aside, he's lost the passion for the job. He's at a point where he accepts losing easily and is very slow to make changes when the team is dying. He makes tame excuses without addressing what's actually making them lose. He has gotten very attached to the longer tenured players and that is heavily influencing his decisions. He's taken his eye off the ball, so to speak. He was nothing like this during the Cups.
When Ian Cole f***ed up in game 4 of 2017, with the Pens up 3-0 and pushing for the sweep, he ripped Cole a new one on the bench. That's the Sullivan I miss.
We don't need what he's become. We need someone hungry and thrilled to be here...someone that still values accountability and inspires the players.
The team often takes on the personality of the coach. This team was lifeless in an unacceptable number of games.

Everything's become too comfortable here for the players. There has to be that healthy fear that your spot isn't secure regardless of performance. And for the prospects, it's important for them to have hope that what they do in Wilkes matters, not that you're blocked by Jeff Carter or the ghost of Teddy Blueger.

Big thumbs up…yep…he’s too cozy with the core players and established vets…regardless of what Sid wants, it’s a system set up for failure…for that reason alone he needs to go, let alone the multitude of others lol

 

[Turin]

Listened to what Friedman said on 32 thoughts. He didnt say that the Pens offered him the job. Just that he knows they talked, cant confirm if they met but FSG is giving Dubas some time to figure things out.

He said if he wants the job it’s his. That’s basically being offered a job.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Obviously the b2bs are a big deal but one is considered some mastermind while the other hasnt coached in the league in years. Even a fraud like Bylsma got past the second round most of the time. Blowing a 3-1 lead to the Rags even got him fired

 

[DesertedPenguin]

And the counter is that you don't know either. It's a message board: it's literally the definition of speculation.

But we do know that this team was lifeless this year. But that certainly cannot be on Mike Sullivan. He's a 2x Cup winner and can do no wrong

Never said I do know. But I have a strong distaste for this tendency for sports fans to evaluate how much someone cares by just a few moments of what we see on television.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to it because I'm a pretty reserved person who doesn't show a lot of emotion in real life. It can look like I don't care about something when the reality is I truly do.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I actually agree with some of that. But this idea that Mike Sullivan is somehow both an amazing coach but gee golly shucks just keeps on having these unavoidable and insurmountable issues every single year for five straight that just can't be overcome is... dubious. At best. Of course these issues exist but is he actually this big difference maker or isn't he? He can't get out there and play but to hear people tell it he's this indispensable factor that gives them an edge. Well... where is it?

Well, this goes back to my central point in defending Sullivan, which is a defense of coaches in general...

NHL coaches have less of an impact on games than people want to admit, especially other coaches.

The reason NHL teams change coaches like they change underwear is because GM's use coaching changes as cover for their own failures in constructing a quality, competitive roster.

Also, hockey success has a lot do with luck - quality of the competition, players getting hot, even actual puck luck.

The key is to find a coach who connects with the locker room and can get players to follow a process on a consistent basis. I think Sullivan, Rod Brind'amour, Jon Cooper and Jared Bednar do that as well as anyone else in the league. Those are my top four.

The tricky thing is evaluating a team when the process is correct but the results fall short. And that's where we are with Sullivan. The results haven't been there. But is the process working? With the right personnel, I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It doesn't matter if Sullivan deserves being fired or not.

What matters is that the core, core-adjacent players, vets and coach are way too comfortable together. They are arrogant and think they are way better than the actually are. You can't get rid of the core, but you CAN fire the coaches, dump Dumo and rattle the cages of Jake and NTCRust.

 

[Gurglesons]

It doesn't matter if Sullivan deserves being fired or not.

What matters is that the core, core-adjacent players, vets and coach are way too comfortable together. They are arrogant and think they are way better than the actually are. You can't get rid of the core, but you CAN fire the coaches, dump Dumo and rattle the cages of Jake and NTCRust.

Exactly.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Sure, watching 164 post-game and pre-games (many of which are 7-10+ minutes) a year isn't enough to notice a shift in approach to his job. You need to be a f***ing psych major now.
And we need to be Oxford graduates to notice how some guys get absurdly long leashes based on their play, when they didn't before, when he took over. Whereas some guys get short leashes when they outperform others, with recognizable patterns based on history with the same player.

McGinn was a 26 game pointless streak I believe? Blueger didn't get scratched for a game? Carter not scratched for a game? Rust a fixture in the top 6 all season, even during extended down periods?
How long were Dumoulin and Letang together to start the year?
McGinn - Carter - Kap stuck together while they were the worst line analytically in the league?

Yeah, accountability is thriving in Pittsburgh. Sullivan hasn't changed at all! This is definitely exactly how he was during the Cups.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Never said I do know. But I have a strong distaste for this tendency for sports fans to evaluate how much someone cares by just a few moments of what we see on television.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to it because I'm a pretty reserved person who doesn't show a lot of emotion in real life. It can look like I don't care about something when the reality is I truly do.

Here's the difference: Sully at least acted like he cared and called players out. That was during some periods of success.

Fast forward 5 years later and his body language has changed; so has his team's performance.
It's not unreasonable to conclude his energy and enthusiasm has waned- coaching professional sports is taxing.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, this goes back to my central point in defending Sullivan, which is a defense of coaches in general...

NHL coaches have less of an impact on games than people want to admit, especially other coaches.

The reason NHL teams change coaches like they change underwear is because GM's use coaching changes as cover for their own failures in constructing a quality, competitive roster.

Also, hockey success has a lot do with luck - quality of the competition, players getting hot, even actual puck luck.

The key is to find a coach who connects with the locker room and can get players to follow a process on a consistent basis. I think Sullivan, Rod Brind'amour, Jon Cooper and Jared Bednar do that as well as anyone else in the league. Those are my top four.

The tricky thing is evaluating a team when the process is correct but the results fall short. And that's where we are with Sullivan. The results haven't been there. But is the process working? With the right personnel, I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.

Does Sullivan connect with our locker room anymore?

He connects with his guys in our locker room. Haven’t really heard any flattering words about our organization in a few years and young players are fleeing the minors now.

Let’s see how well Sullivan connects with the locker room when they are out of the playoff picture again next year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well, this goes back to my central point in defending Sullivan, which is a defense of coaches in general...

NHL coaches have less of an impact on games than people want to admit, especially other coaches.

The reason NHL teams change coaches like they change underwear is because GM's use coaching changes as cover for their own failures in constructing a quality, competitive roster.

Also, hockey success has a lot do with luck - quality of the competition, players getting hot, even actual puck luck.

The key is to find a coach who connects with the locker room and can get players to follow a process on a consistent basis. I think Sullivan, Rod Brind'amour, Jon Cooper and Jared Bednar do that as well as anyone else in the league. Those are my top four.

The tricky thing is evaluating a team when the process is correct but the results fall short. And that's where we are with Sullivan. The results haven't been there. But is the process working? With the right personnel, I think it is. Maybe I'm wrong.

I actually largely agree. I think NHL coaches impact is not nearly that of other pro sports. They can help facilitate success just enough to matter but are still very roster dependent. The problem is they can also help impede success just enough to matter, too. I think this is why they have and should have a short shelf life. With few to no exceptions they eventually get in their own way.

Regardless my opinion on NHL coaches is well known. I know we won't agree but that's OK. I appreciate the back and forth all the same.

 

[SomeDude]

“We don’t do that in Pittsburgh”

Jordan Staal was traded during his wedding. A father/son dinner is nothing