Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[Schooner Guy]

And he whiffed on Giroux and Marchand in the same draft back when he himself was in charge of scouting the Q to get Fischer and White. We had a bunch of awful draft over the year and you're absolutely not on to something with Leblanc.

My entire point is that the one year we took a Quebec born player over a US born player with size was when the draft was in Montreal. Not a typical Timmins 1st round pick. I believe the organization felt pressure to take a Quebec-born player because the draft was in Montreal.

By the way, your train has gone way off the track. Giroux is from Ontario and Marchand is from Nova Scotia.

 

[OnTheRun]

My entire point is that the one year we took a Quebec born player over a US born player with size was when the draft was in Montreal. Not a typical Timmins 1st round pick. I believe the organization felt pressure to take a Quebec-born player because the draft was in Montreal.

By the way, your train has gone way off the track. Giroux is from Ontario and Marchand is from Nova Scotia.

I'm well aware where they are from, both played in the Q. Ref to your post here.

Leblanc was right in the Habs alley, great all around player albeit with no elite attribute, great floor but not a great ceiling. They always liked guy with a 200ft game and he was one of them. Picking him where they did wasn't a reach at all.

 

[BLONG7]

I'm well aware where they are from, both played in the Q. Ref to your post here.

Leblanc was right in the Habs alley, great all around player albeit with no elite attribute, great floor but not a great ceiling. They always liked guy with a 200ft game and he was one of them. Picking him where they did wasn't a reach at all.

Wasn't a reach? Well, it was a huge mistake, and a guy by the name of Kreider is a 40 goal guy and still playing............it was a bad bad pick.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Cherry picking. He also said that they can trade picks and have a lot of assets to make trades.

Yes but he was referencing the Dach trade when he was talking about that. So they're targeting young players like that, they're not targeting Huberdeau.

 

[K2MyEverest]

The stakes are high for PLD in the playoffs this year. You can bet that Hugues and Gorton are going to watch him play closely. If they dont like what they see, I dont see them trading for him this summer or trade Florida's pick for him. If Dubois really wants to come play for MTL right this summer, he'll have to prove himself because Hugues and Gorton arent going to spend huge assets for a player that doesnt elevate his play when it counts.

 

[OnTheRun]

Wasn't a reach? Well, it was a huge mistake, and a guy by the name of Kreider is a 40 goal guy and still playing............it was a bad bad pick.

No one is saying otherwise, he picked the wrong guy like he did many time before... and after. That pick is merely part of an established pattern of bad choice.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

And he whiffed on Giroux and Marchand in the same draft back when he himself was in charge of scouting the Q to get Fischer and White. We had a bunch of awful draft over the year and you're absolutely not on to something with Leblanc.

Edit: It was Maxwell not White.

Maxwell was drafted just before Milan Lucic.

Habs had another pick and they drafted Mathieu Carle. Then Montreal drafted Ryan White and a few spots later Marchand went.

 

[OnTheRun]

Maxwell was drafted just before Milan Lucic.

Habs had another pick and they drafted Mathieu Carle. Then Montreal drafted Ryan White and a few spots later Marchand went.

Ok so I was right the first time, I didn't want to recheck the horror of that one. So ultimately he missed on two legit stars playing right under his nose and a neanderthal with a high peak... to get around 70pts total out of 6 picks. Ain't that something.

 

[Rapala]

I for one would like to know when the Habs/Jets had serious discussions about this player. Was it pre-Dach or post-Dach. I think we can all safely assume either way the ask was far more than what Dach cost us. That being said what are our interests in acquiring him now? Logically if our discussions were all pre draft last year the price is probably too steep for HuGo at this point. On the other hand if they were post Dach it could be they didn't feel a move should be made before the off season. There are two stumbling blocks that remain in place that have to be dealt with before we can acquire this asset.
First and foremost the Jets assuming they can get more value keeping PLD for most of next season before a trade or rental. I don't buy the "but he may get injured" argument at all. Secondly his agent and known mercenary the professional smoke blowing dick wad Pat Brisson. Look at his stable folks and tell me you honestlly think we can get a freindly deal on PLD. Crap I'm still waiting for what should have been an easy contract renewal with Cole Caufield.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

I for one would like to know when the Habs/Jets had serious discussions about this player. Was it pre-Dach or post-Dach. I think we can all safely assume either way the ask was far more than what Dach cost us. That being said what are our interests in acquiring him now? Logically if our discussions were all pre draft last year the price is probably too steep for HuGo at this point. On the other hand if they were post Dach it could be they didn't feel a move should be made before the off season. There are two stumbling blocks that remain in place that have to be dealt with before we can acquire this asset.
First and foremost the Jets assuming they can get more value keeping PLD for most of next season before a trade or rental. I don't buy the "but he may get injured" argument at all. Secondly his agent and known mercenary the professional smoke blowing dick wad Pat Brisson. Look at his stable folks and tell me you honestlly think we can get a freindly deal on PLD. Crap I'm still waiting for what should have been an easy contract renewal with Cole Caufield.

I've always said I think the Caufield deal will be fair for all sides. 6 years at around 8 mil AAV will probably be the deal. Just pay for RFA years and get him resigned as a Ufa at a young age where another long term deal is palatable. As for Dubois, the only deal I think would work for both sides is a deal including Harris+a 2nd+B prospect for a sign and trade PLD. He'll probably get around the same as Suzuki and Caufield. Like Tavares when he signed for 11 mil AAV, Suzuki's contract is a good benchmark for future deals imo

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Maxwell was drafted just before Milan Lucic.

Habs had another pick and they drafted Mathieu Carle. Then Montreal drafted Ryan White and a few spots later Marchand went.

One of the reason why we need to sign a center like PLD or make a trade. Timmins failed to draft Bergeron, Getzlaf, Carter, Giroux, Kopitar, Aho, Kreider, Marchand, etc. It's 18 years of that missing important pieces that would have made the Habs a good team. To fix the mistakes of the past, we have to trade or sign ufas.

 

[Rapala]

I've always said I think the Caufield deal will be fair for all sides. 6 years at around 8 mil AAV will probably be the deal. Just pay for RFA years and get him resigned as a Ufa at a young age where another long term deal is palatable. As for Dubois, the only deal I think would work for both sides is a deal including Harris+a 2nd+B prospect for a sign and trade PLD. He'll probably get around the same as Suzuki and Caufield. Like Tavares when he signed for 11 mil AAV, Suzuki's contract is a good benchmark for future deals imo

It really doesn't matter what any of us think. What do one the Jets and two Pat Brisson think.

 

[OnTheRun]

It really doesn't matter what any of us think. What do one the Jets and two Pat Brisson think.

Well to really put thing in motion, you need the Jets to do poorly in the playoffs, it would probably trigger the proverbial shake up move with PLD as the odd man out due to his situation. If they do well they will probably do what NHL teams tend to do... which is live in denial until the bitter end.

 

[Rapala]

Well to really put thing in motion, you need the Jets to do poorly in the playoffs, it would probably trigger the proverbial shake up move with PLD as the odd man out due to his situation. If they do well they will probably do what NHL teams tend to do... which is live in denial until the bitter end.

True the best scenario for us would have been no playoffs. The Jets will go into next season thinking Dubois can help them position themselves before they have to move him.

 

[Scriptor]

It is interesting how the narrative has changed in the arguments being presented. The same people wanting to trade assets to acquire PLD, then go on to talk about UFA's not signing here. He is not a UFA, if he wants to come here as a UFA, then by all means I would consider signing him. If I am trading assets, then it is unfair to not consider who may be available in a trade 2 years from now for the same assets and 8M in salary that would be spent to bring him here now. Don't move the goalposts by comparing a hockey trade with signing a UFA, that is comparing apples to oranges.

I agree that it is valid to consider what could be acquired in a trade for the same cap hit as Dubois in two years, but that is entirely speculative whether such a trade would be possible. Given the context with Dubois, such a trade being possible is much more pertinent, IMO, whether we want that trade or not.

Personally, my narrative has not changed concerning Dubois. I don't care where he is from. I want the player for the profile he brings and I'm not sold on his automatically coming to Montreal if he becomes an UFA. However, if a contract extension can be negotiated at a reasonable Cap hit as part of a trade for Dubois, I would consider it over waiting to see if he comes here as an UFA.

 

[FrankMTL]

I'm not a huge fan of trading assets (like a first round pick) for Dubois when everybody knows he wants to come here and is a UFA in a year. The Habs can always throw the Jets a lower pick at the end of next season to get his negotiating rights early if they really want to get his contract nailed down. We're not competing next year, so what's the point. I'd rather keep the prospect + 17th overall pick (if the Panthers lose to the Bruins).

 

[Scriptor]

Why exactly is it PLD or bust? In 2 or 3 years with that cap space and the assets in hand, there may be better options than him available in a trade or UFA, or positionally ones that better meet team needs at that time. We are not adding a PPG superstar here, only a slight upgrade on a Suzuki level player.
For me it is like buying a car today that I can only use in 3 years. It might match my current needs and be one of the better models on the market, but by the time I actually will get to benefit by driving the car, it may be obsolete or no longer match my requirements.

There may also not be better options and the point is that, at (soon to be) 25, Dubois fits the young core and should continue to grow and progress with that core over the next years.

Your 'maybe', at this stage, is just a mirage and not a way to plan or build a roster, IMO.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

It really doesn't matter what any of us think. What do one the Jets and two Pat Brisson think.

You forgot about Kent Hughes who has the makes the transaction(s)

 

[Hins77]

I'm not a huge fan of trading assets (like a first round pick) for Dubois when everybody knows he wants to come here and is a UFA in a year. The Habs can always throw the Jets a lower pick at the end of next season to get his negotiating rights early if they really want to get his contract nailed down. We're not competing next year, so what's the point. I'd rather keep the prospect + 17th overall pick (if the Panthers lose to the Bruins).

It depends wich assets.. I made a little research.

Draft 2019, pick 15 to 20 :
Caufield, Newhook, Krebs, Harley, lassi Thompson

Draft 2018, pick 15 to 20 :
Denisenko, ty smith, kaut, foudy, ô’brien

Draft 2017, pick 15 to 20 :
Brannstrom, valimaki, liljegren, vaakanainen, josh norris

Then, there is Caufield and Josh Borris wich they are really good player. But there is also a value to dump a player like Dvorak and sign Dubois on a right price right now, instead of next year on open market.

 

[Rapala]

You forgot about Kent Hughes who has the makes the transaction(s)

Not really I'm under the assumption Hughes would think landing the player would be a good thing overall. Once again provided the ask and the contract fall within his boundaries.

 

[Scriptor]

This guy would make our top 6 very good...I just don't want to gut the the organization to get him when in one year's time, he comes for free....
Hughes has the leverage, not Chevy...

It's clear that gutting the organization to acquire Dubois would be a ridiculous proposition -- and I also don't think that Hughes would do something like that.

However, we have to remain sane and not look at players like Harris or Barron being traded for Dubois as gutting the organization.

There is some sort of disconnect between the real value of Dubois VS the imagined value of regular prospects that teams have name of in their system as it stands.

It will all depend what Hughes can get away with trading for Dubois. I don't think there will be some crazy selling of the farm to acquire Dubois. Not in the least.

I'd definitely be for acquiring a player like Keller at 7.15M, for example, on top of Dubois nearer the 7.5M range, provided we sign Caufield at around 7M.

An average of 7.38M (go as high as 7.5M) for these four players would not be drastic in the least, given the rising Cap over the coming years and the projected 94M ceiling within four or five years.

Dach could become a 7M player after three more years and we would still be well off, Cap wise, able to have a couple of well-paid Ds.

Young energy players with skill that can be signed to cheaper contracts will become a useful part of the lineup, along with ELC contracts that will join the roster and, eventually replace more expensive contracts.

The fact that we have so many young players helps as well.

Hypothetically, with Dubois and Keller added to the roster, for example, along with Anderson still there as a veteran, a few young players on ELCs added, cheaper value contracts to fill out the forward group, etc., we could also cap the 2nd NHL contracts of younger players to coincide with the end of longer contracts to more expensive players ahead of them on the depth chart.

And, honestly, those contracts at &M or 8M will become value contracts over time. Adding better players as prospects won't prevent us from trading the higher paid players to adjust the roster -- far from it. Plus, those value contracts should provide a return of interesting assets to keep th wheel turning.

Dubois, with a year or two left on his contract (31 and 32 years of age, still winding down in his prime), push come to shove with greater, younger talent pushing for his roster spot, would be a huge value in a trade elsewhere.

I see scarecrow posts regularly that fail to look at the whole picture and suggest that present day situations are etched in stone permanently and just serve as obstacles for the future.

It's just not the case.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Not really I'm under the assumption Hughes would think landing the player would be a good thing overall. Once again provided the ask and the contract fall within his boundaries.

The last part of your statement is what I was referring to

 

[Rapala]

The last part of your statement is what I was referring to

True in terms of another stumbling block.

 

[Guy Larose]

Yes but he was referencing the Dach trade when he was talking about that. So they're targeting young players like that, they're not targeting Huberdeau.

I know, I never mentioned Huberdeau at all. This is the PLD thread, so I was thinking him mostly.

 

[Scriptor]

I'm not a huge fan of trading assets (like a first round pick) for Dubois when everybody knows he wants to come here and is a UFA in a year. The Habs can always throw the Jets a lower pick at the end of next season to get his negotiating rights early if they really want to get his contract nailed down. We're not competing next year, so what's the point. I'd rather keep the prospect + 17th overall pick (if the Panthers lose to the Bruins).

Better development of our prospects with a better supporting cast, including adding Dubois as a talented youngster who becomes the equivalent of a young veteran (not a veteran).

Good, young players progress playing with other good (young) players and do so as their confidence grows.

Teams aren't built by sucking for years with a bare roster and magically being contenders the very next season when every talented prospect accumulated for years suddenly joins the team.

Dubois is part of an extended rebuild, IMO, not something that screws up the process. I can't understand how anyone else would see it otherwise. That's just not an accurate view of a proper rebuild. Lots of magic beans and blinders not to understand how adding a 25-yr old Dubois is no different than adding an exceptional draft choice that produces like Dubois the very first year they play in the NHL during their D+1 season.

Why refuse Dubois? He's not old enough not to be part of a four or five year window for a Cup once the team is winding down the rebuild phase.