Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[Tyson]

People trying to compare them are off the rockers. One has had a significantly better line mates and teams than the other so I throw personal stats and plus minuses etc. out the window. What we do know is Suzuki has been better than Dubois in the post season including against each other. The only thing Dubois does better is skating and he is a tad more physical but he isn't the beast some make him out to be. I'm actually impressed with how much Suzuki has cut down his plus/minus given the lower end players he's worked with for a good part of this season.

Imagine how many points he would have had Caufield not been injured.

 

[GobigorGohome]

I like Hughes plan to trade Picks for potentially good already in the NHL young guys
Pull another Dach or 2 over a high pick that is in a wishful thought

 

[MXD]

So who will they be getting from us ready to assume the top 6 role Dubois currently fills? I think it's been pointed out that Winnipeg need to compete again next year before all those contracts expire. Their market isn't like ours we've seen them lose a team in the past because of their on ice product.

...This is pretty much why I think they'll hang on to Dubois for next season. He'll be their rental, so to speak.

 

[beowulf]

It's a funny thing that mostly all the comments of this particular thread about Dubois, are telling how he's overrated because he's québécois , not that good, that he won't be the 100 points guy the Québec fans see in him, a shitty attitude, referencing to Drouin...

where are those fans you are talking about ? were are those comments overrating Dubois , telling he's a 100 points producer ?

Not that hard to find, here there are some but in the media and in Quebec in general I have met a bunch of people who keep hoping that he will be that French Quebec start on offence that the team has not had since pretty much Lafleur. There had been a lot of hope for Drouin to be that guy and that of course did not pan out. Now I hear and see the same craziness that Dubois is the man...you have to have your head in a hole in the ground if you have not seen that yet. Heck I was at the Rockets game last Saturday and some guys behind me, i'd say late 40s or early 50s, were talking about Quebecois players and how getting Dubois would be amazing and would be a superstar scorer for the Habs....

Nobody thinks that. There will be like 10 players hitting 100 pts this season. We all know we won’t ever get that kind of player unless we win Bedard.


No issue at all. The cap will soon reach 90M$. Some players will get 12M$ per.

Again as my above post I have seen some. Not as much on here but other boards or fans on facebook or in person. They will put so much pressure on the kid and it's not fair to him.

 

[26Mats]

Suzuki to me is the epitome of character. Dubois isn't

Suzuki's a real gem, the type player I have hope we can win a cup with even if we don't get a star in the next few drafts. He has O'Reilly, Kopitar, Patrice Bergeron upside. He can have a big impact on a team and elevates his game in big games. The Suzuki we're watching now in meaningless games isn't who we'll see when we're back in the playoffs.

Speaking of that, it's a good sign for Gurianov that he was really good in the Stars playoff run.

 

[MXD]

Not that hard to find, here there are some but in the media and in Quebec in general I have met a bunch of people who keep hoping that he will be that French Quebec start on offence that the team has not had since pretty much Lafleur. There had been a lot of hope for Drouin to be that guy and that of course did not pan out. Now I hear and see the same craziness that Dubois is the man...you have to have your head in a hole in the ground if you have not seen that yet. Heck I was at the Rockets game last Saturday and some guys behind me, i'd say late 40s or early 50s, were talking about Quebecois players and how getting Dubois would be amazing and would be a superstar scorer for the Habs....

Again, that's an evaluation/perception problem. Dubois isn't that player.

If Dubois can be something along the likes of Vincent Damphousse, that would be a heck of an acquisition (and please don't compare them by their raw numbers).

...And yes, Damphousse won the Cup as the best forward on the team, but that was with F2 and F3 (that's Muller and Bellows) were very close, Guy Carbonneau was on checking duties and Mike Keane had a season which, had he replicated thru his whole career, would've sent him in the HHOF. And Stephane Lebeau of all people was our ES top scorer.

And for the record I don't expect PLD to QUITE reach Damphousse's heights, but that's definitely a more reasonable comparison.

 

[Rapala]

That’s what Flames general manager Brad Treliving was led to believe when the first-line left-winger and face-of-the-franchise called on Tuesday evening to deliver the news that he’d be departing as an unrestricted free agent.

Gilbertson: Gaudreau offers little explanation for leaving Calgary

Why did Johnny Gaudreau, the latest star to become a former member of the Flames leave? We're still not sure.

calgarysun.com

The thing that was hard to understand is why this only came out at the last minute. For me a manager has to know what a player's intentions are long before new contracts are discussed.

 

[Vachon23]

People trying to compare them are off the rockers. One has had a significantly better line mates and teams than the other so I throw personal stats and plus minuses etc. out the window. What we do know is Suzuki has been better than Dubois in the post season including against each other. The only thing Dubois does better is skating and he is a tad more physical but he isn't the beast some make him out to be. I'm actually impressed with how much Suzuki has cut down his plus/minus given the lower end players he's worked with for a good part of this season.

PLD was a beast in the playoff in 2019 when CBJ beat Tampa.

He’s better at getting puck to the net, winning puck battle around the net, creating space for his line mates.

At the same time when your in weakest team, your getting the PP1 in the best position and every offensive opportunity to produce.

 

[Rapala]

PLD was a beast in the playoff in 2019 when CBJ beat Tampa.

He’s better at getting puck to the net, winning puck battle around the net, creating space for his line mates.

At the same time when your in weakest team, your getting the PP1 in the best position and every offensive opportunity to produce.

Yes both he and Josh Anderson and even Savard played well that series. But PLD isn't good enough for PP1?
BTW I know you have a personal vested interest in this so I get it.

 

[beowulf]

Again, that's an evaluation/perception problem. Dubois isn't that player.

If Dubois can be something along the likes of Vincent Damphousse, that would be a heck of an acquisition (and please don't compare them by their raw numbers).

For sure, if he can produce like Damphousse did during the 93 Cup season if he does end up in Montreal I would be ecstatic.

 

[Vachon23]

Yes both he and Josh Anderson and even Savard played well that series. But PLD isn't good enough for PP1?

To be the #1 option of the 1st PP ? No either Suzuki is. They should be complements player on a 1st PP

 

[morhilane]

Imagine how many points he would have had Caufield not been injured.

Probably no that much different, since Suzuki was still with Caufield when he started his slump in December and his production increased post All-Star/bye-week break despite the roster becoming more and more the Laval Rocket.

He has 6 pts in his last 5 games, his best production sequence since early November.

 

[Rapala]

...This is pretty much why I think they'll hang on to Dubois for next season. He'll be their rental, so to speak.

Exactly I have a hard time seeing them getting a comparable player plus in a hockey trade. I also think his agent is doing a good job blowing smoke up the right people's asses.

 

[Rapala]

To be the #1 option of the 1st PP ? No either Suzuki is. They should be complements player on a 1st PP

I'd have to disagree. Once the zone is established the more touches Suzuki gets the better our PP is. Suzuki's only problem is having players around him who can get him the puck in open spaces. Dach is decent at it but even Caufield is not the guy. He's the ultimate recipient. Our PP often breaks down because there is always a weak link and just like water will find it's level our PP always finds that player.

 

[26Mats]

Probably no that much different, since Suzuki was still with Caufield when he started his slump in December and his production increased post All-Star/bye-week break despite the roster becoming more and more the Laval Rocket.

He has 6 pts in his last 5 games, his best production sequence since early November.

We as also still haven't found a 3rd wheel for Caufueld and Suzuki AND simultaneously a good 2c to play behind him. When Dach was playing wing on the first line and Monahan was healthy, we had it.

Now that it looks like Dach is ready to lead his own line, we'll need to find that 3rd wheel. Leading candidates next year will be Slaf, Gurianov, RHP, and imo Dvo. Thank the heavens the leading candidates are no longer Hoffman, Drouin, Pitlick, etc..

 

[Beer and Chips]

If I'm PLD, no way I'm going to Montreal, but if he's really serious, the Habs have to set up a firewall on his pc, phone and IPad to make sure hf boards is blocked on all devices.
On a more serious note, the Habs won't give major assets in a trade with Winnipeg. They can just wait 1 season more. Winnipeg is not in a power position at all, unless they find a way to sign him long term, which he clearly stated he won't.

The dream of the next Lafleur continues, we are better off with a strong Franco supporting cast which the team is very close to having, touch wood.

 

[Sorinth]

It's pretty standard practice for teams to allow potential suitors to talk extension. So whether Dubois goes public with who he's willing to sign with or keeps it private it doesn't really change his trade value. Any team that got sufficiently far in negotiations will know whether Dubois would be willing to sign with them or not. So if there's a small list of teams his trade value goes down regardless of whether that list is public or not.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The 10 voters saying no to Dubois regardless of coming as a UFA or trade.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Some folks are gonna be disappointed with Dubois if we land him. Expectations are too high.

PLD is no more consistent than Suzuki. Suzuki holds a slight edge in career PTS/G, both regular season and playoffs.

+/- : you give a text book example of how this stat is used incorrectly, ignoring context. Suzuki is - 11 on a team that’s - 65. Last year when PLD was -6, his team was -5.

Also, Dach won’t take 3 years to develop. This is obvious if you watched his progress this season.

I know PLD is not a superstar. I'm thinking of a well balanced team with PLD. 3 good centers. Compared with the actual team, a team with more grit and more agressive pressure in offensive zone. I'm thinking the team overall would be +10 because every line would provide a good balance of offense and defence. It's not only a matter of having a top goalie and try to win games 2-1.

We have to stop thinking about a messiah or a saviour. This is a team sport where every element is part of a big puzzle. Too many people here think about Bedard and the hockey intelligence stops there. Outside of Bedard, no hope. They want a superstar and magicly all the rest will become better.

I could agree Dach will improve faster than 3 years. Even with a very good Dach and Su, Habs are still with two good centers and two bad centers, not a winning team.

The 10 voters saying no to Dubois regardless of coming as a UFA or trade.

When you're a loser and you want to be a loser, fully aware.
Because who else good center wants to play here? None.
When you say no to that.

 

[Habs Halifax]

When you're a loser and you want to be a loser, fully aware.
Because who else good center wants to play here? None.
When you say no to that.

I think some posters live in the past. Probably think it's another Drouin situation and might be the same posters who said Danault is not worth any more than $3.5M and he's just a 3C. In love with KK just as much as they think Dach is a full time center now. The work at center is done and we don't need Dubois

 

[Sorinth]

Exactly I have a hard time seeing them getting a comparable player plus in a hockey trade. I also think his agent is doing a good job blowing smoke up the right people's asses.

I think the best chance of a good hockey trade from the Jets POV would involve a 3-team deal. A rebuilding team sends Winnipeg a good vet with term, and a team looking to go from bubble to contender sends picks prospects to to that rebuilding team and gets PLD. So for example Philly sends Provorov to the Jets, the Jets send PLD to us, and we send a package of picks/prospects to Philly.

Now 3-way trades are always hard and to complicate matters further most good players with term also have a NTC/NMC so they would have to be willing to waive that to go to Winnipeg which is a wrinkle.

Otherwise they'll have to go with a reclamation project and hope that the player just needs a change of scenery.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think the best chance of a good hockey trade from the Jets POV would involve a 3-team deal. A rebuilding team sends Winnipeg a good vet with term, and a team looking to go from bubble to contender sends picks prospects to to that rebuilding team and gets PLD. So for example Philly sends Provorov to the Jets, the Jets send PLD to us, and we send a package of picks/prospects to Philly.

Now 3-way trades are always hard and to complicate matters further most good players with term also have a NTC/NMC so they would have to be willing to waive that to go to Winnipeg which is a wrinkle.

Otherwise they'll have to go with a reclamation project and hope that the player just needs a change of scenery.

I think it depends a lot on Scheifele and Helle as well. If you are the Jets GM, you clearly have discussions with them too after the season. I think this is deeper than just Dubois in terms of their long game strategy

 

[Rapala]

I think some posters live in the past. Probably think it's another Drouin situation and might be the same posters who said Danault is not worth any more than $3.5M and he's just a 3C. In love with KK just as much as they think Dach is a full time center now. The work at center is done and we don't need Dubois

Or some people simply believe Hughes won't remove Dach from progressing in the 2C role he's only just begun because that is why he got him in the first place. True or False one of Dach PLD Suzuki would neccessarily end up on wing. There is a chance some animosity could be created if one of our placeholders gets bumped. Would PLD be okay coming here as a winger and sign long term as such?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

For those who voted Sign him next summer as a UFA, it's gonna be too late. A smart GM elsewhere will make a deal and Dubois will play elsewhere. Bye-bye the team with 3 good centers, Habs will be a 2 good centers team and turds like Dvorak to make sure Habs miss the PO by 2 points.

 

[Mackiaveli]

• Does he really want to come here or is he just saying he does?
• Should we? or Shouldn't we? at what price? and when should we?
• is he too old?
• Is he worth the price to trade for him? Is he worth the price to sign him?
• Who is he good friends with on the Habs?
• Is he better than Dach?

1. I would imagine he really wants to play in Montreal - if it was just a matter of playing in >NOT WINNIPEG< he would have been moved already.

2. We shouldn't wait simply because much can change between now and then ... what if he gets a significantly higher offer as a UFA and we have to match it and end up paying 1-2m for his contract?

3. Definitely not - He turns 25 this year, so even on an 8 year contract, we likely get at MOST, one 'bad' year out of it.

4. Depends how much it is to trade for him - I would give Florida's pick if it's 15/16/17/18+ because there's next to no chance a PLD quality player will be available at that pick. In terms of cap space? No question.

5. I think friendships are formed when you are brought onto the team, moreso than having existing relationships. I imagine if Drouin stays they would be close - he is probably in the right age group to fit in with Suzuki/Cole/Dvo etc

6. They're both very good players for very different reasons - I thinl Dach has more offensive upside and is the better player with the puck on his stick, and while both are all-rounded physical forecheckers, PLD's game away from the puck is probably better.

I think the most valuable thing about bringing over PLD is that (assuming no Bedard/Fantilli) it would shore us up down the middle, and free Dach up to play on the wing with Caufield/Suzuki. I think the numbers are pretty evident in showing that Dach drives play on that line, so freeing him up to play wing gives the team a bit more flexibility.