Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[TomKosto]

No PLD for a package of Fla 1st + Harris + pick / prospect

And

Hart for the 1st from Matheson deal + prospect + Dikembe

Keep in mind Hart enters his UFA season resulting in lower market price vs PLD


Late teens / early 20s - likely a team that has a disappointing season / playoffs

What's the buzz with Hart? I know he was a good prospect, but he's not that much an upgrade in the net.

 

[salbutera]

What's the buzz with Hart? I know he was a good prospect, but he's not that much an upgrade in the net.

Elite upside (very Price-esque covering down low), and is about to enter a goalies prime - same age Price’s game took off / consistency

 

[TomKosto]

Elite upside (very Price-esque covering down low), and is about to enter a goalies prime - same age Price’s game took off / consistency

Depend of the price again, but I don't see Price in Hart. Philly would not put him on the market if this was the case. We can't go after PLD and Hart. I don't want to give up that much future.

 

[salbutera]

Depend of the price again, but I don't see Price in Hart. Philly would not put him on the market if this was the case. We can't go after PLD and Hart. I don't want to give up that much future.

No one knows if Briere will actually put him on the market - it was Friedmans speculation, which for those insiders is usually based on someone having whispered in their ear….

FWIW - Philly has never been an org to develop G, Habs have always had it in their DNA.

As for cost: Hart enters his UFA season, if Philly is rebuilding, what are the chances he resigns? If he’s dealt next deadline he’ll net the usual return a 1st + grade C prospect - this summer will net max return for Hart

 

[JRichard]

What's the buzz with Hart? I know he was a good prospect, but he's not that much an upgrade in the net.

I sure hope you know he would be an upgrade on Montambeault.
5 yrs starter and 2yrs younger.
On moneypuck fancy stats Hart hangs around 10-15th. On a good team he would be top 10. For many years.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Depend of the price again, but I don't see Price in Hart. Philly would not put him on the market if this was the case. We can't go after PLD and Hart. I don't want to give up that much future.

Just PLD, forget about Hart.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I sure hope you know he would be an upgrade on Montambeault.
5 yrs starter and 2yrs younger.
On moneypuck fancy stats Hart hangs around 10-15th. On a good team he would be top 10. For many years.

Montembeault maybe reached a new level of play he will deliver constantly. So maybe he's better than Hart actually.

 

[JRichard]

No one knows if Briere will actually put him on the market - it was Friedmans speculation, which for those insiders is usually based on someone having whispered in their ear….

FWIW - Philly has never been an org to develop G, Habs have always had it in their DNA.

As for cost: Hart enters his UFA season, if Philly is rebuilding, what are the chances he resigns? If he’s dealt next deadline he’ll net the usual return a 1st + grade C prospect - this summer will net max return for Hart

Rfa after next season…
Briere wont shop Hart, he will listen as he should to offers on every player over around 25. Thats close to Hart’s situation.

see thread started by Habs fan on Hart for Price »comparisons »…

 

[Scriptor]

Just PLD, forget about Hart.

Admittedly, I'm in on acquiring Dubois, but I'm also not hell bent on unloading a ton of futures for multiple players.

The point is not to make the Habs a cup contender next year - that will never happen, no matter how much quality futures we unload.

The point is to mix and match the rebuild process.

Last year was using two first round picks to draft a prospect and flipping a third one (acquired through a trade on the draft floor) for a promising NHL Center in Dach. It was also a mix of trading veterans for picks and prospects, veterans for picks and veterans for prospects as the main piece.

I would like this year to be a repeat of the same thing at the draft; the acquisition of a third 1st round pick, the use of two of those picks to draft and the use of the third one to acquire a young NHL player that can be part of the team's young core.

I would like. 2024 to be the same again.

Three years like that, plus the prospects already in the fold of Montreal's system, should provide the foundations for a solid roster for the long term, with the need to tweak the whole thing at best in a year or two after that.

Just using picks at the draft can lead to a long and winding road, with less certainty of building a long term contender in a reasonable time frame that didn't waste too may years of your better youngsters today.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Admittedly, I'm in on acquiring Dubois, but I'm also not hell bent on unloading a ton of futures for multiple players.

The point is not to make the Habs a cup contender next year - that will never happen, no matter how much quality futures we unload.

The point is to mix and match the rebuild process.

Last year was using two first round picks to draft a prospect and flipping a third one (acquired through a trade on the draft floor) for a promising NHL Center in Dach. It was also a mix of trading veterans for picks and prospects, veterans for picks and veterans for prospects as the main piece.

I would like this year to be a repeat of the same thing at the draft; the acquisition of a third 1st round pick, the use of two of those picks to draft and the use of the third one to acquire a young NHL player that can be part of the team's young core.

I would like. 2024 to be the same again.

Three years like that, plus the prospects already in the fold of Montreal's system, should provide the foundations for a solid roster for the long term, with the need to tweak the whole thing at best in a year or two after that.

Just using picks at the draft can lead to a long and winding road, with less certainty of building a long term contender in a reasonable time frame that didn't waste too may years of your better youngsters today.

In the case of Hart I'm not sold on him. I want better than him on nets honestly if we have to make a move into goaltending.
PLD is one piece we need, I understand the best timing is 1-2 years but we are not sure a deal like this will be available in 1 or 2 years. Having him next september fast-forward the rebuilt time. A lot of players can finally fall in the right chair. We have a solid core of D in place with Matheson, Ghule and Mailloux. Farrell is coming too. And maybe the next first round choice.

 

[Scriptor]

Not next year -- the one after that, 2024-2025 will be the most interesting year for the Habs' prospects as many should be stating their case to play at the NHL level.

Adding an impact NHLer like Dubois would be valuable forth development of the youngsters currently in Montreal.

This upcoming season may see Farrell and Heineman get some NHL playing time, but not much more.

Many hope Mailloux amazes everyone at camp and plays in the NHL, but he's missing development time, for sure, and Laval might be the place to get that, without being too much in the limelight as he struggles defensively before getting better.

I know we lack depth on the right side, but that shouldn't be a reason to make Mailloux graduate before he is ready forth NHL.

Some think Roy will surprise and stick with the NHL team?

Not counting on it, but he's definitely rounded put his game and it could be interesting for him to get up to 10 NHL games if he has a good camp.

 

[BaseballCoach]

If the statement isn't directed at you, don't take offense.

Personally, when I see posts which suggest that Dubois will want 9M - 10M, as I've seen creep up, or that we will give up the moon, the stars and the sun to get him, all in order to diminish the interest for the player, or the credibility of those suggesting we try to trade for him, there's obviously some other motivation than an honest assessment of the player.

The same goes for the language about him being or amounting to nothing more than he is as a just a 24-yr old, like suggestions to acquire Dubois were tantamount to saying, "Let's get that over-the-hill 32-yr-old from Quebec to please the fans."

It's bad faith arguments to devalue the player and, unfortunately, that doesn't happen from someone who is neutral about the player, or remotely objective.

The worst are the posts spitting, "If he's honest about wanting to be a Hab, he'll wait until he is an UFA and sign with Montreal then," like venom, where the kid should just suck it up and take one for the team if he wants us to believe he deserves to play here.

I honestly wonder what planet those posters are from. Either they are alien to the human race, or they are motivated by other thoughts than an honest assessment of the player.

It's not a question of not having the same opinion. It's a dishonest approach to expressing why they don't want Dubois.

If ChWest's take was simply, "I don't think he is a difference maker and I think he has character issues, why would I characterize that as hate?

I'd definitely try to explain why I believe he has already been a difference maker in past playoffs and why I think he can grow to be a consistent difference maker, because I don't agree, and I will definitely explain why I have no fears about his attitude, because Tortorella and his public humiliation is, to me, a justifiable reason to ask for a trade and, for someone starting a family, not wanting to start it in Winnipeg is also a justifiable feeling, but someone that simply disagrees won't, automatically for me, be a hater.

What may be behind the disinterest in Dubois that is expressed by a few but perhaps harbored by a lot more who do not express it, are two factors:

1. The suspicion that Dubois will turn out like Drouin or Desharnais, long-term anchors on the cap.

2. The suspicion that Dubois is not really interested in playing here and that he, his agent or both are playing a game seen before with the likes of Briere, M. Lapointe, Perron, Lecavalier

There are ways to deal with such arguments if they are in the open, but it's tougher in the case of those who think these things but don't say so.

 

[Habs Halifax]

What's on the Dubois trade talk menu today? .

 

[WeThreeKings]

What's the buzz with Hart? I know he was a good prospect, but he's not that much an upgrade in the net.

Just gonna be one of those goalies who is always hot and cold. Not really a dynamic enough athlete to be a sustainable #1 across seasons.

I wouldn't really invest the acquisition cost into him.

 

[morhilane]

What's on the Dubois trade talk menu today? .

Hot dogs and poutine

Which means Habs will have to add some gravy for the trade to happen.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Hot dogs and poutine

Which means Habs will have to add some gravy for the trade to happen.

Dubois Platter

 

[MXD]

What may be behind the disinterest in Dubois that is expressed by a few but perhaps harbored by a lot more who do not express it, are two factors:

1. The suspicion that Dubois will turn out like Drouin or Desharnais, long-term anchors on the cap.

2. The suspicion that Dubois is not really interested in playing here and that he, his agent or both are playing a game seen before with the likes of Briere, M. Lapointe, Perron, Lecavalier

There are ways to deal with such arguments if they are in the open, but it's tougher in the case of those who think these things but don't say so.

It seems to me like Scott Gomez and Brandon Gallagher are much better example of cap anchoring than Drouin and Desharnais.

 

[Habs Halifax]

My low ball offer to the Jets considering we are rebuilding and we will wait for Dubois to reach UFA if the price is something we rather not pay.

* Beck
* Habs early 2nd rounder (34-38 range)
* Engstrom
* Gurianov

Comparing to the Trouba trade:
* Beck vs Rangers 1st (20th pick)
* Habs 2nd rounder and Engstrom vs Pionk
* Bonus: NHL contract and someone who still has potential at age 25 (Gurianov)

 

[Habs Halifax]

It seems to me like Scott Gomez and Brandon Gallagher are much better example of cap anchoring than Drouin and Desharnais.

Comparing Dubois to any of them (Gomez, Gallagher, Drouin, DD) is just flawed.

* Gomez came after his prime for 29+ years
* Gallagher was signed for 29+ years
* Drouin came at age 21 I believe and had soft flaws. Trending well but on a great team. Certainly not proven like Dubois
* DD was just there due to horrible center depth.

Dubois is 24 and proven like Suzuki.

Maybe Dubois can be compared to Danault in terms of not wanting him cause we did let Danault walk. Who's better? I say Dubois but Danault is right behind him.

 

[MXD]

Comparing Dubois to any of them (Gomez, Gallagher, Drouin, DD) is just flawed.

* Gomez came after his prime for 29+ years
* Gallagher was signed for 29+ years
* Drouin came at age 21 I believe and had soft flaws. Trending well but on a great team. Certainly not proven like Dubois
* DD was just there due to horrible center depth.

Dubois is 24 and proven like Suzuki.

Maybe Dubois can be compared to Danault in terms of not wanting him cause we did let Danault walk. Who's better? I say Dubois but Danault is right behind him.

Oh, it is flawed.
It's just that, if you're afraid of a bad caphit, Scott Gomez is a significantly better example than David Desharnais.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh, it is flawed.
It's just that, if you're afraid of a bad caphit, Scott Gomez is a significantly better comparable than David Desharnais.

I think not wanting to sign Danault is the best comparable to not wanting to trade or sign Dubois as a UFA.

 

[MXD]

My low ball offer to the Jets considering we are rebuilding and we will wait for Dubois to reach UFA if the price is something we rather not pay.

* Beck
* Habs early 2nd rounder (34-38 range)
* Engstrom
* Gurianov

Comparing to the Trouba trade:
* Beck vs Rangers 1st (20th pick)
* Habs 2nd rounder and Engstrom vs Pionk
* Bonus: NHL contract and someone who still has potential at age 25 (Gurianov)

It seems to me that Pionk was worth closer to ONLY a Second than to a Second + Engstrom

 

[Habs Halifax]

It seems to me that Pionk was worth closer to ONLY a Second than to a Second + Pionk.

Yes, I think Poink's value when traded to the Jets is not far off from what Harris's value is today.

That low ball offer is better than the Trouba trade. Not many would consider that. I have played the high point and low point game in Dubois trade talks. Too many fans afraid to play the low ball offer because they are worried they get ganged up on.

 

[TomKosto]

I sure hope you know he would be an upgrade on Montambeault.
5 yrs starter and 2yrs younger.
On moneypuck fancy stats Hart hangs around 10-15th. On a good team he would be top 10. For many years.

Is he? Never had a season over 0,909 over the last 3. And we are not that much of a better club than Philly, how is he going to do better than Monty here?

I'm reading here PLD vs 1st+ prospect (which I would be fine) and Hart vs 1st + prospect (which I would not be). We can't give that much prospect and picks when we are rebuilding.

 

[JRichard]

Is he? Never had a season over 0,909 over the last 3. And we are not that much of a better club than Philly, how is he going to do better than Monty here?

I'm reading here PLD vs 1st+ prospect (which I would be fine) and Hart vs 1st + prospect (which I would not be). We can't give that much prospect and picks when we are rebuilding.

Well Habs are behind Flyers this year, were behind year before so not sure how « we are not that much of a better club than Philly ». They managed 1 more point in the flawed covid season with that weak as f Canadian division.

Hart would have better stats on a better team.

bad trading partners, this is obvious.