Is there an issue with Finnish development system ?

[ES]

I would say Finnish might not underline the importance of skating skill well enough. The core of the national team (those who have done multiple WCs under current Jalonen term) doesn't have brilliant skaters. Of course someone like Heiskanen makes a big difference when he's in like in 2022 Worlds.

 

[Oak]

There is a problem with Finnish hockey yes. Our association got too satisfied and lost the hunger for success. They have money but they aren't putting it to improve our coaching. Liiga is not very good for any players since the level of the league has been declining because there is too many teams in the league.

So
- Not enough skills training
- Old sauna club recycling of coaches, teams don't get the coaching they deserve and coaches get jobs based on being part of it and not because of their skills
- Association too lazy to do anything about it
- Liiga level lower so players not getting the high level environment to improve themselves

Sounds a lot like whats happening in the US & Canada except we have a much larger population, hence larger player pool.

 

[Strangle]

I was looking at the recent drafts and noticed that there is not many Finnish players going in the first round:

2021: 0
2022: 2
2023: 0

If you look at the Athletic top 100 list of U23 players, there’s just a few Finnish names with most notable being Lundell and Kakko who aren’t the youngest prospects either.

https://theathletic.com/4805966/202...-23-connor-bedard/?source=user_shared_article
Ranking the best NHL players and prospects under 23: Connor Bedard tops the list

Adding to it, a bad start by the Finnish team at 2024 U20, all of it raises a question - is there an issue with Finnish development system ?

What happened ? The popularity of the sport dropped or there are other factors ?

I wonder if they are seeing a decline in hockey players like it feels we are in Canada.

There aren’t as many top picks coming out of French Canada as there was 30 years ago, either. Or all of Canada, I feel. But French Canadians seem to have taken a big step back for some reason

Cost, time, etc

 

[Oak]

Cost, time, etc

In the US its mostly kids from very wealthy families who are playing at the highest level. The amount of time, money, and travel that they expect parents to do is ridiculous. This year might be the most insane I have ever seen. I can see a dwindling in hockey numbers in the future if this continues. ADM cant fix this problem.

 

[Strangle]

In the US its mostly kids from very wealthy families who are playing at the highest level. The amount of time, money, and travel that they expect parents to do is ridiculous. This year might be the most insane I have ever seen. I can see a dwindling in hockey numbers in the future if this continues. ADM cant fix this problem.

That’s the big issue, there are fewer families ‘wealthy’ enough for the luxury of having their kids in hockey.

All the money I would have spent on my kids playing hockey went to mortgage increases and a grocery bill that I spend more on than my mortgage every month.

The economy is in the shitter over here, I assume Finland is having similar issues

 

[Oak]

That’s the big issue, there are fewer families ‘wealthy’ enough for the luxury of having their kids in hockey.

All the money I would have spent on my kids playing hockey went to mortgage increases and a grocery bill that I spend more on than my mortgage every month.

The economy is in the shitter over here, I assume Finland is having similar issues

With the rare exceptions, its the same kids who have been on top at young ages who are still "considered" on top. These are the families that travel to every single tournament all around the country 12 months out of the year and have private skills coaches working with their kids. A good amount of these families own their own private jets.

The days of elite athletes and "naturals" ascending the ranks in hockey are gone. I know of only one kid who fits that mold in the birth years I watch but everyone else its non stop hockey - all single sport athletes. I'm actually surprised some of these kids haven't burnt out yet but we'll see over the next few years now that most are in juniors.

Long term it will be a rich mans game with rich kids playing it. ADM might get more kids started but every year the fees go up. I doubt the retainment numbers have been looking good for USA hockey recently.

 

[theslatcher]

From what many of y'all are saying, sounds like Finland could perhaps benefit from program similar to US NDTP?

I think that could have an opposite effect, watering down the leagues except for one super team that would just light every team up.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

Yes there are big issues in Finnish junior hockey and player development.
Lacks of skating and all basic hockey skills are huge.

When you look Finnish players who come over to NHL first time
most of those guys will be AHL assingments and CHL loans
( if the player is drafted to CHL ) so that tells something.

When you look SM liiga there game is slow and passive trap
which kills the game, individual skills and player development.

Almost all SM liiga coaches have copied ''meidän peli'' game-plan
and made their own versions of it because it works so well for Team Finland

Other big issue is game officiating and disciplinary board.
Always when young player gets big hit straight on his head
just because he has skated head down, and eyes on the puck
like blind headless chicken referees shits their pants immediately
and call 5+20min penalty even if the hit was clean and later SM liiga
gives at least 5 game suspension if not more.

SM liiga also has too many teams
and it is getting worse next season when Kiekko-Espoo
returns to SM liiga that means there will be 16 teams when there should only 10-12 teams.

I truly hope we won't win medal in these U20 WJC's
because that will give wrong signal to Finnish hockey association
and those bozos will say immediately ''everything is fine in Finnish hockey no need for changes''.

That's way advancing to relegation round
would've be been better for U20 Team Finland instead of making quarterfinals.

 

[gritdash60]

So many people saying there is an issue with skating for young finnish players and that really is not it. If there is an issue its on physicality and shooting the puck, skating is fine for most young players.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

So many people saying there is an issue with skating for young finnish players and that really is not it. If there is an issue its on physicality and shooting the puck, skating is fine for most young players.

Only Miro Heiskanen is elite skater of the Finns
and most Finnish hockey people are keeping Heiskanen
as a measuring-stick or some-kind role-model for skating ability and so.

Hintz, Barkov, Rantanen and Granlund are good / very good skaters.
But bigger picture skating is one if not huge then a bigger lack for Finnish NHL prospects.

Yeah yeah skating can be coached but it doesn't change that in SM liiga
the game is slower because there's so much room on the ice to stand behind the net even a minute without doing nothing and that's all related to ''meidän peli ( our game ) what Finnish men's national team plays.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

So many people saying there is an issue with skating for young finnish players and that really is not it. If there is an issue its on physicality and shooting the puck, skating is fine for most young players.

What comes to shooting puck and scoring goals
i truly hope that Nyman, Hämeenaho and Halttunen pans out in NHL as they should.

Laine was really good shooting a puck and scoring goals about 3-5 yrs ago
but his bad luck with injuries and so is turning worrisome so nobody can't say
for sure will Laine ever again score 30-40 goals in one season into NHL.

Rantanen is today only candidate of the Finns
who can score about 45-50 goal seasons each year in NHL.

Hintz and Aho have potential to score about 35-40 goals in one season
and Barkov about 30-35 goals but that's it.

Heck even Eeli Tolvanen hasn't yet scored over 20 goals in NHL.
And he was supposed to be at least good goal-scorer in NHL
when he was a 2017 NHL draft prospect but something happened
and he turned more a work-horse than goal-scorer of course
Tolvanen is still young ( same age as Heiskanen ) so never say never

Yes i didn't mention Brad Lambert because he's AHL player.
So there are questions with him too.

 

[WayTooCold]

Liiga has too many teams. 15 teams is too many, the level is watered down. 10 teams would be perfect for me. And only 2 non-Finn players per team. Liiga is a total joke now. I haven't watched it for years.

Maybe we should put Finnish kids on gear already at 15y so they wouldn't look so lanky and weak compared to Canadians.

 

[Poro24]

Liiga has too many teams. 15 teams is too many, the level is watered down.

And don't forget the U20 league with 20 (!!!) teams. League with zero competitiveness can't be a very good place for development.

It just seems that there is everything wrong in every level at the moment.

We have Sweden living right next to us so the people in suits don't have to look very far to see how things should be done. But no...

 

[Jukurit]

Finnish hockey desperately needs better d-men.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Only Miro Heiskanen is elite skater of the Finns
and most Finnish hockey people are keeping Heiskanen
as a measuring-stick or some-kind role-model for skating ability and so.

Hintz, Barkov, Rantanen and Granlund are good / very good skaters.
But bigger picture skating is one if not huge then a bigger lack for Finnish NHL prospects.

Yeah yeah skating can be coached but it doesn't change that in SM liiga
the game is slower because there's so much room on the ice to stand behind the net even a minute without doing nothing and that's all related to ''meidän peli ( our game ) what Finnish men's national team plays.

Do you have any thoughts on Huuhtanen? Slower skater, but bomb of a shot, great weapon on Jukurit's PP1. He's progressed well, considering he was the last pick in the 2021 Draft

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

Do you have any thoughts on Huuhtanen? Slower skater, but bomb of a shot, great weapon on Jukurit's PP1. He's progressed well, considering he was the last pick in the 2021 Draft

I'm not so aware about Niko Huuhtanen
but he debuted in Finnish men's national team in December's EHT tournament in Switzerland
so the potential and talent is there but hard to say for sure is he future NHL player or not.

Of course i hope he'll be but i truly can't say more.
Perhaps my fellow Finn @Jukurit can help you better than me so ask him.

 

[Jukurit]

Do you have any thoughts on Huuhtanen? Slower skater, but bomb of a shot, great weapon on Jukurit's PP1. He's progressed well, considering he was the last pick in the 2021 Draft

I don't think Huuhtanen is fast enough for NHL.

 

[SantosHalper]

So many people saying there is an issue with skating for young finnish players and that really is not it. If there is an issue its on physicality and shooting the puck, skating is fine for most young players.

What? Heiskanen is literally only elite skater we have. Hintz is 2nd best. Others have good balance but they are not leaving anyone in the dust and this group includes Barkov, Rantanen etc.... basically all the rest.

Today for example, Slovakia picked up the pace in the 2nd and Finland was let behind.

Skating is the biggest problem, then physicality.

 

[ijuka]

What? Heiskanen is literally only elite skater we have. Hintz is 2nd best. Others have good balance but they are not leaving anyone in the dust and this group includes Barkov, Rantanen etc.... basically all the rest.

Today for example, Slovakia picked up the pace in the 2nd and Finland was let behind.

Skating is the biggest problem, then physicality.

There are strong skaters, such as Kasperi Kappanen and Rasmus Kupari, they just aren't that good players otherwise.

 

[SantosHalper]

There are strong skaters, such as Kasperi Kappanen and Rasmus Kupari, they just aren't that good players otherwise.

And we have good players otherwise but are bad skaters. I see that as a issue in player development.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Another year of no Medal for Finland. This is particularly bad with Russia out of the way. The 3 golds in 6 years is looking pretty far away at this point (last one was five years ago). I think the Czechs may soon be overtaking them, although the Finns have an advantage in that their best players play domestic (as opposed to run off to the CHL Import Draft) which gives them a better opportunity to improve.

You don't want the Federation to take the wrong message and say "well 4th is still OK" when they've artificially limited the competition due to a ban and rose up a spot by default. At the end of the day, after coming in 3rd in their group, all they really managed was to beat Slovakia in overtime, which isn't much of an accomplishment.

But.. let's give their 06s a chance before we overreact too much. The 04 and 05 were not good age groups.

 

[Svedu]

Another year of no Medal for Finland. This is particularly bad with Russia out of the way. The 3 golds in 6 years is looking pretty far away at this point (last one was five years ago). I think the Czechs may soon be overtaking them, although the Finns have an advantage in that their best players play domestic (as opposed to run off to the CHL Import Draft) which gives them a better opportunity to improve.

You don't want the Federation to take the wrong message and say "well 4th is still OK" when they've artificially limited the competition due to a ban and rose up a spot by default. At the end of the day, after coming in 3rd in their group, all they really managed was to beat Slovakia in overtime, which isn't much of an accomplishment.

But.. let's give their 06s a chance before we overreact too much. The 04 and 05 were not good age groups.

Well, Czech have Jiricek and others born 2006 as well.

 

[Mestaruus]

i think the drafting thing is because teams are uncertain of their ability to scout and project finnish players due to recent poor outcomes. there have been a bunch of prominent finnish draft busts or disappointments where teams missed problems and players failed to continue to develop.

puljujarvi, juolevi and kakko are top 5 pick busts. laine has had moments but is nowhere near what he might have been. atu raty and brad lambert were at one time highly rated prospects that fell hard before they were drafted .

even slafkofsky came up in the finnish system and it looks like is not going to be what montreal thought he was.

I'm a Finn and I must say that in my opinion you are quite right. Could almost put Kotkaniemi on that list as well. He was the 3rd overall pick.

 

[Mestaruus]

Absolutely.. Finn's are richer than us though. We have double the population but they have better economics.

I can't stress enough how impressive this nation of 5 million is at this.

You are not wrong, but I think saying it's just "better economics" needs some clarification. That is true for ice hockey only. It's easy to get sponsors behind hockey in here, in Finland because the sport is always in the spotlight. In other sports here, it's much harder to get sponsor money that easily. Finland is very poor compared to Sweden for example. It feels like in Sweden, it's much easier to get sponsors behind much more different sports.

 

[RBbandit]

I'm a Finn and I must say that in my opinion you are quite right. Could almost put Kotkaniemi on that list as well. He was the 3rd overall pick.

Honest question from the Czech guy. Is there some significant difference between the Swedish and Finnish development systems regarding harder/easier transition to NHL? Maybe it's just my perspective as Swedes transfer to the NHL more easily.