Is there an issue with Finnish development system ?

[SantosHalper]

From what many of y'all are saying, sounds like Finland could perhaps benefit from program similar to US NDTP?

I think that teams in Finland doesn't want to give their prospects away. Finland use to have a U20 team playing in tier-2 league Mestis, i couldn't find any stats this fast but if i remember it right they played about 20 games. 10-15 at least, so it was a bit similar to USNDTP but it didn't translate to success.

And currently Finland has a system that one coach, coaches one age class through the first 3 years of national team.

The current U18 head coach Marko Kauppinen was the U16 head coach in 2021-2022 and then he was the U17 head coach for the 2022-23 season, and now he is the U18 head coach. And Marko Kauppinen is also the next U16 head coach for the 2024-25 season and naturally U17 head coach for the 2025-26 season. Finishing his second project in 2026-27 as the U18 head coach.
Current U16 coach Tuomo Ropo is the next U17 head coach and will be the U18 head coach in 2025-26. Mikael Kotkaniemi(Jesperi's dad) is the current U17 head coach and the next U18 head coach 2024-2025.

So again a bit similar to USNDTP, if im not mistaking there also one coach, who coaches one age class for 2 years. This system brought good success U18 gold 2016 & 2018 and U18 silver 2015 & 2017. But 1 bronze after that, i believe that player development has regressed and that is the reason for poor results.

 

[IHaveNoCreativity]

This is funny because 5 years ago they were regarded as the gold standard for development by many, everyone has tougher age groups.

The Slovaks, Germans and the Czechs started pumping more into their kids about 10 years ago as they all experienced a decline, I think you’re seeing that and the peak of USA hockey which is leading to the Fins not looking as good.

 

[WarriorofTime]

From what many of y'all are saying, sounds like Finland could perhaps benefit from program similar to US NDTP?

Seems unnecessary as the Europeans already have pretty extensive national teams that do a lot together from a continuous period for many years prior to the WJC.

Just like the Canadians start their program of excellence thing with U17 (16 year olds) at the Hockey Canada sponsored world hockey challenge early into age 16 season, it historically had five teams to get as many kids into the system and on the radar, then down to 3 and starting this year down to 2, and then the following summer has the Gretzky-Hlinka tournament for kids prior to their age 17 season, has the U18 World Championships for players that aren’t conflicted out by the CHL playoffs (a good portion usually as 17 year olds often aren’t on the best teams that load up with 18 and 19 year olds), has the summer camps, and the hockey Canada sponsored World Junior A Challenge as well to introduce in some other kids to the program operating outside of the CHL system. Outside of an advantage in the U18 IIHF world championships, there isn’t much need for a NTDP style thing with other countries. USA had the biggest need for it because all teams were just hodge podge and lacked continuity without it.

 

[VanJack]

Have you checked the population of Finland recently? It's about 5.54 million. There's probably more people than that in a couple of New York Buroughs.

It's actually something of a minor miracle that they produce as many high-end players as they do.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Seems unnecessary as the Europeans already have pretty extensive national teams that do a lot together from a continuous period for many years prior to the WJC.

Just like the Canadians start their program of excellence thing with U17 (16 year olds) at the Hockey Canada sponsored world hockey challenge early into age 16 season, it historically had five teams to get as many kids into the system and on the radar, then down to 3 and starting this year down to 2, and then the following summer has the Gretzky-Hlinka tournament for kids prior to their age 17 season, has the U18 World Championships for players that aren’t conflicted out by the CHL playoffs (a good portion usually as 17 year olds often aren’t on the best teams that load up with 18 and 19 year olds), has the summer camps, and the hockey Canada sponsored World Junior A Challenge as well to introduce in some other kids to the program operating outside of the CHL system. Outside of an advantage in the U18 IIHF world championships, there isn’t much need for a NTDP style thing with other countries. USA had the biggest need for it because all teams were just hodge podge and lacked continuity without it.

i don't claim to be expert on Finnish development, but the ndtp program was designed (from what i recall) to produce higher end players and not just win tourneys like this. that was goal too, but it was i think more to win olympic type gold than dominate teenage competitions. so that is why i suggested, as the Finnish posters were complaining about lack of talent development in their country of late. not saying is the answer, just a thought i had that could be.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Sounds like Finnish hockey needs to clear out the old boys club, but this is still an odd thread to me.

The US has a population of 332 million.
Russia has a population of 143 million.
Canada has a population of 38 million.
Sweden has a population of 10 million.
Finland has a population of 5.5 million.

The San Francisco Bay Area, by itself, has 2 million more people than the entire nation of Finland.

It's pretty easy to make the case that, on a per-capita basis, Finland is the most successful nation in the history of the game. It's also pretty easy to make the case that, on a per-capita basis, Finland has no business icing teams that are able to compete with some of these other nations.

I would think some moderate falls in competitive levels from year-to-year would be expected.

 

[SantosHalper]

Finland U17 national team just lost to Czechia 6-1 and won Sweden in OT. This is what was said about those 2 games.

Finland is indeed a long way behind in fighting play and attacking the offensive zone at this age. While the opponent moves and the puck moves and tries to create chances, the Finns flounder in place and one of them tries something with the puck and usually away from the goal, roughly as a generalization. Because the combat power is weaker and not working in the attack area sometimes it seems really anemic to attack sometimes. Sometimes an individual catches an idea and does something, but these are very rare.

Even today, a terrible difference was in Sweden's favor in the attacking zone, although the victory came.

You should have more game courage and fighting power.

19-year olds are suffering from the same issues as the 17-year olds. All of this cannot blamed on bad coaching, there is serious problems in finnish player development. And this is not the first year that these issues are raising head, more like a 3rd or 4th year.

 

[ijuka]

Sounds like Finnish hockey needs to clear out the old boys club, but this is still an odd thread to me.

The US has a population of 332 million.
Russia has a population of 143 million.
Canada has a population of 38 million.
Sweden has a population of 10 million.
Finland has a population of 5.5 million.

The San Francisco Bay Area, by itself, has 2 million more people than the entire nation of Finland.

It's pretty easy to make the case that, on a per-capita basis, Finland is the most successful nation in the history of the game. It's also pretty easy to make the case that, on a per-capita basis, Finland has no business icing teams that are able to compete with some of these other nations.

I would think some moderate falls in competitive levels from year-to-year would be expected.

Ice hockey is Finland's national sport, practically everyone follows it. The same cannot be said for Sweden, in Sweden football(soccer) is ahead of hockey for example. Simply looking at populations isn't the way to go.

The only nation that cares about ice hockey as much as Finland is Canada.

 

[trick9]

They have 3 golds in the last decade. Russia and Sweden have combined for 0.

They are fine, but this is definitely an off year for them.

 

[Jukurit]

Finnish hockey 2023 year review:
- Lost in WJC quarter-finals against Sweden
- Lost in U18 quarter-finals against Slovakia
- Lost in Men's World Championship quarter-finals against Canada
- 0 first round picks at NHL draft
- Hlinka-Gretzky team looked absolutely terrible and got destroyed by Czechia and USA's B team in their last 2 games by combined score of 13-4
- #2nd overall pick Kaapo Kakko is still a bust
- Lost against Germany for the first time ever at WJC. Previously Finland had won 25 games and Germany 0

Finnish hockey is in massive decline. Anybody can see that. Both Czechia and Slovakia will soon pass Finland in hockey (If they haven't already).

 

[moropanov]

Finnish hockey 2023 year review:
- Lost in WJC quarter-finals against Sweden
- Lost in U18 quarter-finals against Slovakia
- Lost in Men's World Championship quarter-finals against Canada
- 0 first round picks at NHL draft
- Hlinka-Gretzky team looked absolutely terrible and got destroyed by Czechia and USA's B team in their last 2 games by combined score of 13-4
- #2nd overall pick Kaapo Kakko is still a bust
- Lost against Germany for the first time ever at WJC. Previously Finland had won 25 games and Germany 0

Finnish hockey is in massive decline. Anybody can see that. Both Czechia and Slovakia will soon pass Finland in hockey (If they haven't already).

Yea there's issues, but on paper Finland still has top 4 A team at men's level Can Usa Swe Fin clear top 4(Russia excluded) so Finland has clear edge in player material compared to Czech Sui Ger Svk etc at top level, but in 5-10 years Fin might be same level as those if thinks dont get better.. And on paper doenst tell how thinks would went actually on ice. Finland atm might lose to Slovakia etc atm same way as Russia has lost to Finland many times when Finland had mediocre teams so its not automatic Finland would beat those team's even now eventough they have more star players/quality players in NHL

 

[illone84]

they're Finnished

 

[Eye of Ra]

nah they are fine

 

[EK47]

Off year, wouldn’t expect this to last.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

They're just a small country in the hockey world. They produce many more NHLers than they should by population, but sometimes they're just good at it instead of great. They'll bounce back.

 

[illone84]

Is there an issue with the Finnish development system ? What's wrong with Matthews? What's wrong with Mcdavid? Hfboards seems to ask premature questions too often. Must be a generational thing. Bunch of kids that can't handle a few bumps on the road.

 

[Nate070]

Is there an issue with Finnish development system ? What's wrong with Matthews? What's wrong with Mcdavid? Hfboards seems to ask premature questions too often. Must be a generational thing. Bunch kids that can't handle a few bumps on the road.

Well, I was not surprised to find Jukurit posting here

 

[RBbandit]

Interesting thread to read. The Finnish development system is still regarded as a kind of golden standard in Europe, at least in CZ. Maybe Finns are just victims of their success in a way, just too big expectations. I'm sure they will be just fine, they know what they are doing.

 

[waitin425]

I'm not sure....ask Sweden.

 

[RBbandit]

I'm not sure....ask Sweden.

Sure, you could be just right. A few years back, Finns seemed to have better results, especially if you consider half the population Finland has compared to Sweden. They both have great development systems.

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

There are problems in Finnish hockey and it’s good to look at them and think how can we do better.
But this is just another”suvantovaihe” or gap, like after Olli Jokinen - Tuomo Ruutu - Mikko Koivu, the generation of Pitkänen, Tukonen, Korpikoski et al were all disappointments. Then after a few rough years Barkov, Aho, Laine came.

One thing that hasnt been mentioned, is too many teams. If we have say 50 Liiga-NHL players per year, but spread them to 15 teams or however many they have these days, it’s too many to give them enough tough games. Best vs best raises the skill level and quality, so A,B,C SM-Liiga should be less teams to concentrate the talent and raise the skill levels

 

[gritdash60]

The top of the class is doing fine, what im worried about is the players behind that, is it enough for Liiga teams to develop Liiga players?

"When i asked a 15yo player what he did in the summer, he said he skated once a week, well what about golf? 4 times a week. I could ask if he should play golf then if practice on ice takes couple hours a week and golf takes 20 or more."

Who said these quotes, its someone who everyone always wants to hate but actually has good points often?

 

[vorky]

There are problems in Finnish hockey and it’s good to look at them and think how can we do better.
But this is just another”suvantovaihe” or gap, like after Olli Jokinen - Tuomo Ruutu - Mikko Koivu, the generation of Pitkänen, Tukonen, Korpikoski et al were all disappointments. Then after a few rough years Barkov, Aho, Laine came.

One thing that hasnt been mentioned, is too many teams. If we have say 50 Liiga-NHL players per year, but spread them to 15 teams or however many they have these days, it’s too many to give them enough tough games. Best vs best raises the skill level and quality, so A,B,C SM-Liiga should be less teams to concentrate the talent and raise the skill levels

I would say the problem is lack of resources .... and it will be much worse soon.

 

[karhukissa]

I would say the problem is lack of resources .... and it will be much worse soon.

Lack of resources? Finnish hockey association has more than plenty of money, also top Liiga teams are doing well financially. Lack of resources isn't the issue, heck they even have hockey arenas in every single small village in Finland.

 

[SantosHalper]

Lack of resources? Finnish hockey association has more than plenty of money, also top Liiga teams are doing well financially. Lack of resources isn't the issue, heck they even have hockey arenas in every single small village in Finland.

Yes sir, i can confirm this. I live in the middle of nowhere and even we have a hockey arena that draws 1000 and actually we have two working arenas. The other one draws about 300-500 i believe, about a 5 years ago i was fixing the old arena. It was middle of the summer but the old arena was still cold as ice.