Is there an issue with Finnish development system ?

[krutovsdonut]

That is not true.

he didn't come up through tps?

 

[_vivelequebec_]

he didn't come up through tps?

I was referring to the second part of the message.

 

[SantosHalper]

Ironically, could these problems have been exacerbated by Finland winning?

I rarely consider Finland among the most talented teams in any given tournament, yet they are a nightmare to play against. They're masters of team play, defense, structure, etc. Sisu! But this isn't an ideal strategy to implement generation to generation, let alone seep into the junior game (younger than U20).
You can't let systems take precedence over talent in the development department.

It could but clearly the big shots forgot to evolve our system and game more, instead they were happy rolling in cash what success brought.

There is lot of things wrong in finnish hockey and this is not new, back in 2009(i think) Erkka Westerlund held a emergency meeting to his colleagues. Basically he said that finnish hockey is in crisis and how coaching needs a change.

And lot of you has mentioned Finland's success in last decade, well that success is mostly thanks to that emergency meeting held in 2009. But the fat cats forgot that the game evolves all the time.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I was referring to the second part of the message.

ok, maybe this is a language issue. my opinion about the likelihood of a future fact cannot be true or untrue unless you think i don't really hold that opinion. an opinion about the future can turn out to be right or wrong, but it cannot be true or untrue.

for example, i thought doug wickenheiser was a good waiver pick up for the canucks way back when. my opinion on his potential contribution turned out to be a little optimistic but it was never untrue.

 

[_vivelequebec_]

ok, maybe this is a language issue.

definitely language issue. What I was precisely responding to is that sentence :

it looks like is not going to be what montreal thought he was.

Don’t know if montreal meant the management, or the fans, or the media, or all of them, but Slafkovsky is getting praised by everybody in the city right now.

 

[krutovsdonut]

definitely language issue. What I was precisely responding to is that sentence :

it looks like is not going to be what montreal thought he was.

Don’t know if montreal meant the management, or the fans, or the media, or all of them, but Slafkovsky is getting praised by everybody in the city right now.

yes, i was not expressing any opinion on what montreal currently thinks he is. i was saying i don't think it is likely he will be the player they thought he was when they drafted him. unless they thought he was another kotkaniemi level player. then i think they'll be happy.

 

[SantosHalper]

Second bad U20 tournament in a row and Finland been bad at the U18s as well for couple years now.

What you saw against Canada and Germany, in Finland we have word for it "virkamiesmieskiekko". This team was not a gold medal contender to begin with but they shouldn't be this bad, now Finland is struggling to reach Q-final stage. Unacceptable.

But maybe this is what we need, a complete disaster tournament. Because that's the only way to wake up the Finnish Ice Hockey Association. Otherwise it will be good ol' wash, rinse and repeat.

We are losing in skating, shooting, passing, 1 on 1 battles. Like Ismo Lehkonen said most of our players play in Liiga, in a men's league and we should we should win most of the 1 on 1 battles. Clearly Liiga is part of problem, the level of game in Liiga has regressed a lot. Too many teams and not enough good players, and not enough competition.

First and second problem is the Finnish Ice Hockey Association and player development, the Sauna Club is filled with incompetent and greedy people. The Finnish Ice Hockey Association should be filled with people like Mikko Saarni for example, whom has excellent takes on finnish hockey. Liiga and Mestis orgs should hire skill and skating coaches and the ice hockey associaton should provide some "assistance money" for it. They are swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck, player development in Finland is halting big time. Junior national team needs full time skills and skating coaches, they have the money for it.

Third problem is Liiga, the finnish ice hockey association should step in and break the Liiga cartel. Like i said too many teams and not enough good players, and not enough competition. No fear of relegation because Liiga stock costs too much for the Mestis teams, crappy teams can sell half of the team and play rest of the season with 3 lines with 2 of them filled with junior players. And it gets even worse, next year there is 16 teams in Liiga! FFS!!!

12 team league would be best, 1-6 advances to the playoffs, 7-10 play playoff qualifier series and two winning teams advances to the playoffs. Teams 11 and 12 play relegation round 1 first against each other, loser plays in relegation round 2 against the Mestis champion. And same league system to Mestis. More meaningful games, more competition, Liiga improves, Mestis improves and hell even a 3rd-tier league suomi-sarja improves as well. Common sense says then finnish hockey itself would improve.

 

[Jussi]

Second bad U20 tournament in a row and Finland been bad at the U18s as well for couple years now.

What you saw against Canada and Germany, in Finland we have word for it "virkamiesmieskiekko". This team was not a gold medal contender to begin with but they shouldn't be this bad, now Finland is struggling to reach Q-final stage. Unacceptable.

But maybe this is what we need, a complete disaster tournament. Because that's the only way to wake up the Finnish Ice Hockey Association. Otherwise it will be good ol' wash, rinse and repeat.

We are losing in skating, shooting, passing, 1 on 1 battles. Like Ismo Lehkonen said most of our players play in Liiga, in a men's league and we should we should win most of the 1 on 1 battles. Clearly Liiga is part of problem, the level of game in Liiga has regressed a lot. Too many teams and not enough good players, and not enough competition.

First and second problem is the Finnish Ice Hockey Association and player development, the Sauna Club is filled with incompetent and greedy people. The Finnish Ice Hockey Association should be filled with people like Mikko Saarni for example, whom has excellent takes on finnish hockey. Liiga and Mestis orgs should hire skill and skating coaches and the ice hockey associaton should provide some "assistance money" for it. They are swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck, player development in Finland is halting big time. Junior national team needs full time skills and skating coaches, they have the money for it.

Third problem is Liiga, the finnish ice hockey association should step in and break the Liiga cartel. Like i said too many teams and not enough good players, and not enough competition. No fear of relegation because Liiga stock costs too much for the Mestis teams, crappy teams can sell half of the team and play rest of the season with 3 lines with 2 of them filled with junior players. And it gets even worse, next year there is 16 teams in Liiga! FFS!!!

12 team league would be best, 1-6 advances to the playoffs, 7-10 play playoff qualifier series and two winning teams advances to the playoffs. Teams 11 and 12 play relegation round 1 first against each other, loser plays in relegation round 2 against the Mestis champion. And same league system to Mestis. More meaningful games, more competition, Liiga improves, Mestis improves and hell even a 3rd-tier league suomi-sarja improves as well. Common sense says then finnish hockey itself would improve.

One major issue when it comes to junior development is that the sport has shifted from every man's sport first into a middle class sports and now even into a upper middle class sport. Equipment and ice time costs are causing more and more kids to move into cheaper sports or quit sports all together.

 

[Jussi]

Yes, it's worse for a country on a long-term basis to have their junior leagues raided and then ultimately destroyed into something that is but a small shell, but for individual players going through their own individual development (without regard for the more systemic matters), it can make sense.

Right now, unless a kid is playing regular minutes in SM-Liiga (like Konsta Helenius) or Mestis, they're better going to Canadian junior leagues. We have issues that are not going to be fixed in the immediate future.

 

[SantosHalper]

One major issue when it comes to junior development is that the sport has shifted from every man's sport first into a middle class sports and now even intoa upper middle class sport. Equipment and ice time costs are causing more and more kids to move into cheaper sports or quit sports all together.

Again a issue where the ice hockey association could fix.

 

[gritdash60]

There is a issue with appointing coaches, not in the development of players. This absolute dumbass should coach a u20 team in Finland, not a U20 Team Finland.

 

[ORRFForever]

No. You have overachieved for years. You are doing well.

 

[ijuka]

Oh definitely.

First of all, for the minor level and younger children, many of the coaches are players' parents. So from the very beginning, players are unfairly favored, which leads to negative developments(players will feel like what they're doing doesn't matter, lack agency, etc.). Second, the attitude is that team play > everything and individuality is shunned and nipped in the bud. Third, extremely conservative development regarding gym and training means that Finnish players are far behind the north american players in physical development almost without exception. The players cannot skate, cannot compete, and just are plain weak. Because apparently, a player cannot go to the gym before they're 18 or something. Then add Liiga and its pure dead puck era-type refereeing and Finland just doesn't have a great environment for player development.

The biggest issue might still be the coach selection process, which is not merit-based at all, but instead based on the old boys' club and beer-drinking buddies.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

The mid to late 90s birth years were incredible in terms of talent for Finland.

Barkov, Rantanen, Aho, Hintz, Laine, Saros, Heiskanen, Teravainen, Maatta, Kotkaniemi, Puljujarvi, Kapanen, Tolvanen... I'm not sure that was sustainable.

Oh definitely.

First of all, for the minor level and younger children, many of the coaches are players' parents. So from the very beginning, players are unfairly favored, which leads to negative developments(players will feel like what they're doing doesn't matter, lack agency, etc.). Second, the attitude is that team play > everything and individuality is shunned and nipped in the bud. Third, extremely conservative development regarding gym and training means that Finnish players are far behind the north american players in physical development almost without exception. The players cannot skate, cannot compete, and just are plain weak. Because apparently, a player cannot go to the gym before they're 18 or something. Then add Liiga and its pure dead puck era-type refereeing and Finland just doesn't have a great environment for player development.

The biggest issue might still be the coach selection process, which is not merit-based at all, but instead based on the old boys' club and beer-drinking buddies.

How prevalent is that ideology around gym time? Seems pretty unscientific.

 

[JJTT]

How prevalent is that ideology around gym time? Seems pretty unscientific.

Very. Most of the young athletes in Finland are very skinny and are way behind on physical development compared to North Americans especially. Genes play some part but our 18 year old look like 13 year old kids compared to anyone else.

Even if they manage to train in the gym, they train the wrong things. For some reason all of our prospects are terrible skaters and can't seem to improve at all.

Also there has been many players with bad hip problems in the past couple of years, not looking good at all.

 

[BB88]

Of course there is

We are so far behind in skating and nobody wants to address that issue

 

[Hntz]

I think the downfall of Liiga is one of the biggest issues. Sure there are more u20 players playing against men, but the competition isn’t what it used to be.
Also the playstyle in Liiga doesn’t translate well to the NHL

 

[Slimmy]

One major issue when it comes to junior development is that the sport has shifted from every man's sport first into a middle class sports and now even into a upper middle class sport. Equipment and ice time costs are causing more and more kids to move into cheaper sports or quit sports all together.

Finland still has more junior players than Sweden. Not really a valid excuse. With that said, Finland is doing fine still.

 

[crashthenet]

Ironically, could these problems have been exacerbated by Finland winning?

I rarely consider Finland among the most talented teams in any given tournament, yet they are a nightmare to play against. They're masters of team play, defense, structure, etc. Sisu! But this isn't an ideal strategy to implement generation to generation, let alone seep into the junior game (younger than U20).
You can't let systems take precedence over talent in the development department.

Felt this way for a long time. Tenacious.

Seemed there was a time when Finnish goaltending and instruction was amongst the best in the world. What's the feeling around that today?

 

[Jussi]

Finland still has more junior players than Sweden. Not really a valid excuse. With that said, Finland is doing fine still.

We don't really. We count everyone in there, Sweden doesn't. And no, we are not doing fine currently.

 

[Czechboy]

I keep reading about 'skating'. Isn't this the Finnish strength? Everytime I read a Czech article about Finn's vs us... it always mentions how much better they skate than us.

 

[NyQuil]

I keep reading about 'skating'. Isn't this the Finnish strength? Everytime I read a Czech article about Finn's vs us... it always mentions how much better they skate than us.

I don't know how much of it as about the technical skill of skating and how much of it is the usual 110% effort that Finnish teams traditionally display in international competition.

 

[Czechboy]

I don't know how much of it as about the technical skill of skating and how much of it is the usual 110% effort that Finnish teams traditionally display in international competition.

I honestly thought they had both.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

From what many of y'all are saying, sounds like Finland could perhaps benefit from program similar to US NDTP?

 

[Jussi]

Very. Most of the young athletes in Finland are very skinny and are way behind on physical development compared to North Americans especially. Genes play some part but our 18 year old look like 13 year old kids compared to anyone else.

Even if they manage to train in the gym, they train the wrong things. For some reason all of our prospects are terrible skaters and can't seem to improve at all.

Also there has been many players with bad hip problems in the past couple of years, not looking good at all.

There's been a consensus by the medical community that extensive weight training during the growing years of puberty can stunt growth and/or cause long term issues in the joints. Now there's disagreement on how much weight training can be done safely at a young age. Some are now saying light weight training won't cause issues. Mikko Koivu is probably the biggest example of a case where he didn't begin serious weight training until he had stopped growing height.