Is there an issue with Finnish development system ?

[Svedu]

It's not really realistic to expect every player the size of Hintz ever be able to skate as well. He's significantly bigger than McDavid and nearly as fast. Barkov and Rantanen are still clearly above average skaters despite having the size. Besides Hintz, also Kupari is absolutely elite, especially in this size category. Both arguably top 10 in the league. Even Lundell is just average, skating clearly not his strength but also not a glaring weakness.

That is of course not to say that pursuing improvements in training wouldn't be worthwhile especially given that the game has only been getting faster, but it's also not an issue that would justify higher costs and as a result even smaller prospect pool in youth hockey.

I wouldn't say Barkov is above average. I mean skating is not a strength of his imho. Perhaps not a weakness anymore. Laine, Lundell, Kakko and the majorty are weaker skaters than almost every player from NA. Usually I feel like we are after Czechia and Slovakia in that department as well, the skating that is.

Kupari, Heponiemi, Hintz, Aho, Heiskanen, Tuomaala, Kapanen, Ylönen, and Lambert and perhaps Heimosalmi have rather been exceptions than the standard when watching the finnish juniors play.

TT, Barkov, Laine, Rantanen, Kakko, Lundell, Heinolas straight line speed, Aatu Räty, Armia were all weak skaters imho. No speed and weak start-stop ability. TT perhaps being the most agile of them and a bit better.

And look at this years WJC, no exception. The only good skaters I can find are bottom6 forwards such as Nurmi and perhaps Vesterinen and maybe, only maybe Saarelainen and Alasiurua. Rest are average or below average.
I thought Väisänen were better before the tournament as well, but pretty average skater him too.
I mean if not even half of the rosters have good skaters then it's telling. And it has been like this for a decade now.

 

[Albatros]

Finland has been disappointing to me so far. Their team looks to be outside of the big 4 group, replaced by the Czechs. They struggled to beat Germany and lost convincingly to Canada. This is usually a team that cant be counted out of winning it all.

Finland's group stage each time they won gold in the last 10 years:
2014 2nd (7 pts) NOR 5:1, SWE 2:4, RUS 4:1, SUI 3:4
2016 2nd (9 pts) BLR 6:0, RUS 4:6, SVK 8:3, CZE 5:4
2019 3rd (6 pts) SWE 1:2, KAZ 5:0, SVK 5:1, USA 1:4

The team doesn't look good this year, but each time they won it all they had 3 points after the first two games just like they do now. Ultimately a top 4 finish comes down to beating Sweden or Czechia in the quarterfinal and nothing else.

 

[Albatros]

I wouldn't say Barkov is above average. I mean skating is not a strength of his imho. Perhaps not a weakness anymore. Laine, Lundell, Kakko and the majorty are weaker skaters than almost every player from NA. Usually I feel like we are after Czechia and Slovakia in that department as well, the skating that is.

Kupari, Heponiemi, Hintz, Aho, Heiskanen, Tuomaala, Kapanen, Ylönen, and Lambert and perhaps Heimosalmi have rather been exceptions than the standard when watching the finnish juniors play.

TT, Barkov, Laine, Rantanen, Kakko, Lundell, Heinolas straight line speed, Aatu Räty, Armia were all weak skaters imho. No speed and weak start-stop ability. TT perhaps being the most agile of them and a bit better.

And look at this years WJC, no exception. The only good skaters I can find are bottom6 forwards such as Nurmi and perhaps Vesterinen and maybe, only maybe Saarelainen and Alasiurua. Rest are average or below average.
I thought Väisänen were better before the tournament as well, but pretty average skater him too.
I mean if not even half of the rosters have good skaters then it's telling. And it has been like this for a decade now.

Statistically Barkov's skating in terms of speed is in top 20-30 % among forwards in the league which is clearly above average. That while also being a heavyweight. And show me a great skater besides Samoskevich among the North Americans in Florida, singling out Lundell or even Barkov among that lot is just weird. Ditto in Montréal the North American option to Laine, Caufield, is hardly any better despite being half the size.

 

[SantosHalper]

Is hockey accessible to the normal average child in finland growing up? Like through public school?

It's very expensive sport and now a days where everything costs you arm and a leg, many low income families cannot afford it. Maybe even middle class households are struggling with it, they might push their kids to play soccer or floorball, much much cheaper hobbies.

Schools don't have teams.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

These observations - birth rate, economy, cost to play, coaching, nepotism, etc. - apply to all hockey playing nations.

USA will probably have a year or two of sub-par WJC teams upcoming, and many will be questioning the value of the NTDP, even though it has been absolutely vital to the consistent improvement of our team over the years.

My guess is that the variation in strong/weak teams over time is an unpredictable phenomenon, rather than explained by any systemic issue unique to a given country.

 

[WarriorofTime]

These observations - birth rate, economy, cost to play, coaching, nepotism, etc. - apply to all hockey playing nations.

USA will probably have a year or two of sub-par WJC teams upcoming, and many will be questioning the value of the NTDP, even though it has been absolutely vital to the consistent improvement of our team over the years.

My guess is that the variation in strong/weak teams over time is an unpredictable phenomenon, rather than explained by any systemic issue unique to a given country.

Tough to say when it's a multi-year trend of subpar draft classes. At some point it does become bigger than random variance of high-end players amongst smaller locales. Think of Quebec right now, Czechs around 15 years ago. If USA produces 5 straight mediocre USNTDP classes, it's a topic for sure more so than just one uninspiring looking WJC roster

 

[WarriorofTime]

Oh for sure, i don't disagree with the current situation. This is clearly a bad batch of players, but for Germany&Slovakia or Switzerland this would be a great team. That's just context when i hear someone saying there's challenge coming behind top 6.

Yeah it's just the reality in hockey that any of the notable nations have a very high and safe "floor", compared to a sport like Football/Soccer where if someone starts to slip from where they've been, there's about 10 other countries that will shoot right passed them. Even basketball which is not as popular as Football/Soccer that's more so the case with a deeper pool of competitive nations. There's only about 16 countries that have somewhat reliably produced professional players and a pretty clear 8/9 amongst them, and then a tier within that as well.

 

[just a hockey fan]

It's not about "every age group." It's just the lack of elite talent in almost any age group.

And it's systematic, and deeply rooted. Training is very amateurish in comparison to USA or Canada, and coaching very uncompetent. Youth coaching is mostly driven by nepotism and the teams accept anyone who's willing to work for free. Competition itself is even shunned until the players are, like, 16. I'd say that there's more serious competition in Canada at the age of 10.

There's nothing wrong with having the majority of players playing casually, but there should be actual high-quality, professional tracks that the talented players can enter. Right now, the "kaikki pelaa"-attitude makes it so that the good players are throttled and held back intentionally so that the less talented ones wouldn't feel bad. For most players, it's really hard to just flip the switch from "just have fun, it doesn't matter" to actually competing. This is terrible for producing any kind of talent.

You have to understand, all Finnish prospects are insanely far behind their peers in terms of strength, skating, endurance, explositivy, and so forth. This is a systematic issue. It's not about some players lacking in talent, it's the fact that this talent isn't honed until the player gets drafted by an NHL team. Finnish prospects start 5 years behind their Canadian counterparts.

All the current elite Finns in the NHL came in short time frame so there certainly were elite talents in different age groups. A whole other discussion is which of those perceived elite or even great talents made it to their potential. I'd be more curious of the players picked outside the 1st round who go to the AHL and don't either develop at all or don't get called up even if they're seemingly succeeding there. Other countries have later round players making it but it seems like Finns get into the NHL more regularly straight from Liiga/Europe than North American leagues. Might be wrong with that though.

And okay, if you say that it's all down to youth coaching then I'll have to believe you. I doubt that competition is avoided fully on purpose though. If that's the case and players are "held back intentionally" (would love to hear from actual players and coaches who have witnessed/done this) then what was it like when the current NHL generation came through? If it was competitive 8-10 years ago, what is the reason for the sudden change? Less good players thus naturally less competition?

For me the one fully believable reason for the lack of elite talent these past few years for Finland is that the higher ups got used to winning the U18's and U20's and thus they perhaps thought it would keep happening and they'd have a constant stream of Barkov's and Aho's etc. which hasn't happened of course.

Isn't it a big generalization to say all prospects are behind? And I don't have as much of a problem with some players lacking in physical elements that can be developed for years after they turn 18 or even 20-21. Of course ideally everything is done exactly like the Canadians do but I guess Finns haven't tried or don't think there's only one correct way to develop physicality etc.

It's good to have some more insight (even if I don't see everything as negatively like many others do which is fine of course) and I'm sure there has been a reaction to the lower amount of high draft picks and in a few years there will be exciting players regularly again.

 

[Svedu]

Statistically Barkov's skating in terms of speed is in top 20-30 % among forwards in the league which is clearly above average. That while also being a heavyweight. And show me a great skater besides Samoskevich among the North Americans in Florida, singling out Lundell or even Barkov among that lot is just weird. Ditto in Montréal the North American option to Laine, Caufield, is hardly any better despite being half the size.

Lundell was a bad skater when young was my point and I'm standing by my first take. He was far superior in IQ, his poise, playmaking and ability to finish. Could add Granlund here. Barkov was not a great skater but he's also generational when it comes to other things so no need to mention him anymore.
I don't give a rats ass about Caufields skating. Laine has never been a good skater but then again, i think he has the best shot in the whole NHL so he' ll manage himself.
Why compare a bad skater to another? That's not a valid point in my books.

Luostarinen has been a pretty good skater, at least the last time I saw him. And he was a lot faster and dynamic than Lundell.

All in all, my point is what? That these great Finnish players are insane talents and often they have some high IQ. But they are exceptional. One out of 50 amongst Finnish prospects, if not 100. But when you watch these WJC's as I believe you do? You'll easily see that majority of the Finnish talents are straight up bad skaters. And the majority of the Americans are GREAT skaters and the majority of the Canadians players are good skaters as well. I mean it's been like that for 10-15 years. I can name good Finnish skaters with two hands. And overall we are speaking about say 200-300 prospects during the years. That's just unacceptable.

 

[Albatros]

Professional skating coaches cost money, anyone with enough money can hire one. The question is whether there are enough prospects that are both wealthy and talented enough to make use of that.

 

[ES]

The junior national team coaches need to be ones who have had success at a major level and who can also inspire young players. Out of the current coaches Tuomo Ropo fits that bill but the other ones not so much.

There is an habit that coach is with the age group for three years and that doesn't inspire any big names. So the best option is young-ish up-and-coming coach. Ahokas and Niemelä were such coaches, neither was well-known before their U18 golds but now are among top Finnish coaches.

 

[FinPanda]

Big issue in Finnish hockey is also the cost of the sport, in a small country we are losing talent for purely because everyone can't play it.