Is Keefe really the problem?

[nuck]

Keefe's success has followed the organic improvement with age of the big 3. JT has regressed from the Babcock era as has regular season Rielly. He inherited a 105pt team and they were 111pts last season. There is no evidence that he has brought them forward in any area really. Jay Woodcroft had the same kind of inherited powerhouse in Edmonton and he is under the gun right now in spite of much more playoff success than Keefe has had. How long do you get to fail to win with a stable of thouroughbreads before you are accountable? He should have been gone two years ago- see Vegas

 

[hullsy47]

Keefe's success has followed the organic improvement with age of the big 3. JT has regressed from the Babcock era as has regular season Rielly. He inherited a 105pt team and they were 111pts last season. There is no evidence that he has brought them forward in any area really. Jay Woodcroft had the same kind of inherited powerhouse in Edmonton and he is under the gun right now in spite of much more playoff success than Keefe has had. How long do you get to fail to win with a stable of thouroughbreads before you are accountable? He should have been gone two years ago- see Vegas

Msle laughs at us at every board meeting .they make enuff money that they can just turn a blind eye
Tannenbaum hired treliving .now he's even making money off this shitshow

 

[notbias]

Keefe's success has followed the organic improvement with age of the big 3. JT has regressed from the Babcock era as has regular season Rielly. He inherited a 105pt team and they were 111pts last season. There is no evidence that he has brought them forward in any area really. Jay Woodcroft had the same kind of inherited powerhouse in Edmonton and he is under the gun right now in spite of much more playoff success than Keefe has had. How long do you get to fail to win with a stable of thouroughbreads before you are accountable? He should have been gone two years ago- see Vegas

"much more playoff success"... they've won the same amount of 3rd round games as us

Vegas also got rid of plugs like Reaves and needed to cheat to win... I wish we'd do the same.

Not sure any of these comparisons work...

Maybe Keefe needs to simplify his system to accommodate the low IQ players Treliving brought in, but I think right now this is on the GM, not the coach... outside of Domi who looks to fit at 3C, what signing of Bertuzzi, Klingberg, Reaves, Holmberg, Kampf, Gregor, and Samsanov is playing well right now?

The answer is none of them (maybe Holmberg was decent).

The 4th line is unplayable, the goaltending is atrocious, Klingberg needs to be sheltered heavily, and Bertuzzi is doing about as well as an AHL call-up would do.

The injuries don't help... but not sure how people can view this team and think that it is Keefe's fault.

 

[ZEBROA]

Keefe makes realy stupid decisions many times. Putting the worst offensive players out when we need a goal etc. Not playing hot players enough. But i dont think the loosing is most his fault.

 

[mjd1001]

I re-watched all the goals allowed again last night, slow motion replay, looking at where players were in some cases from by frame...and it is the same thing over and over, night after night.

Forwards not skating hard to get back, where if they were 1-2 steps farther back they could make a play. Chasing the puck in your own end when you already have teammates chasing the puck and you leave your spot on the ice open. Losing loose puck battles not because you are smaller or less skilled, but because you don't always put the work in.

At some point, I wonder if those things are almost all on the players and not the coaching staff.

I can't see Keefe saying "expend all your energy in the offensive zone and just get your rest by coasting back on your backcheck" Or Its OK not to work that hard on the boards getting the loose puck, the other team will turn it over eventually just be ready to get it in open ice" or "don't think too hard about where your teammates are or what your D-zone positioning should be, just chase that puck!"

 

[Mopar]

Keefe is a disaster.

He should have been fired this summer after the GM change.

When was the last time he outcoached anyone? Has he ever?

Frankly, there are too many examples of his bad decisions to include in this post and I don't want to bore everyone. Anyone who follows the team understands it.

His coaching record is a product of this roster. Nothing more. The record should be far better than it is if you look at the number of easy wins this team has dropped during his tenure. Then there's his string of absolute embarrassing losses like the David Ayres catastrophe, losing to AHL rosters on home ice with a healthy teams, etc.

Sheldon Keefe would do everyone a huge favor if he resigned immediately.

 

[therealkoho]

Why are Marner and Matthews stapled to each other? Why haven't they tried changing this combo? They've filtered through Jarnkrok, Knies, Bertuzzi over and over.

He needs to seperate Marner and Matthews and try to get some identity on these lines.

Here's my suggestion;

Knies- Matthews - Nylander (speed, skill, two elite shots.

Bertuzzi - Tavares - Marner (slow, grinding line. Get really good at cycling the puck, and have more opportunities in front of the net, where Bertuzzi can play physically.

Third line needs a new player via trade. They have zero identity at the moment.

This!

For the longest time last year there was a lot of whinging about Keefe's seeming obsession of keeping MM with JT, and a non-stop outcry of how Marner should be playing with the soon to be "leagues highest paid player" not the leagues best player mind you, but the "leagues highest paid player" or Auston Matthews if you weren't sure who I meant.

Full circle as they say!

Shanahan should of humbled himself and admitted he wasn't the smartest guy in the room:
"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
-Matthews 23:12

Auston really said that? I guess he must have been going to university over there in Zurich!

 

[fahad203]

You don't have to be a problem, but you are not the solution either


Florida didn't need to do a coaching change neither did Vegas.. but they got two experience coaches and went to finals and won Stanly cup

Tochhet is doing wonders

Can we at least try someone else ?

 

[notbias]

You don't have to be a problem, but you are not the solution either


Florida didn't need to do a coaching change neither did Vegas.. but they got two experience coaches and went to finals and won Stanly cup

Tochhet is doing wonders

Can we at least try someone else ?

Yes... let's hire Paul Maurice... Florida went to the finals on the back of Bob, not their coach.

Maurice has a terrible track record of coaching.

 

[fahad203]

Yes... let's hire Paul Maurice... Florida went to the finals on the back of Bob, not their coach.

Maurice has a terrible track record of coaching.

Every coach has essentially gone to the finals because of their goalie.

Be as that may, they played their hearts out for him.

I guess Cassidy never happened either

 

[notbias]

Every coach has essentially gone to the finals because of their goalie.

Be as that may, they played their hearts out for him.

I guess Cassidy never happened either

I mean one of the best organizations in the league let Cassidy go... but I don't care too much about Vegas, they looked as good as did because they manipulated the cap to get an advantage.

They are a good team, but it is silly to pretend they didn't add a $9.5 million player at a $0 cap hit.

 

[fahad203]

I mean one of the best organizations in the league let Cassidy go... but I don't care too much about Vegas, they looked as good as did because they manipulated the cap to get an advantage.

They are a good team, but it is silly to pretend they didn't add a $9.5 million player at a $0 cap hit.

You are right. Let's keep everything status quo. Worked out so well

Keefe has been given 3 goalies. 20+players . New coaching staff in between . Yet here we are.

Keep status quo.. greatest organization is ok letting go a Stanly cup runner up coach but we have problem letting go Keefe

 

[Stephen]

I think our offensive and neutral zone systems are fairly difficult to pick up/learn for those who haven't been in them prior/skilled. It's why we have some comically bad busts like Ritchie. I think it takes a little while that's why we usually have bad starts after cycling through players every year

Now Treliving shit the bed by seemingly getting dudes that didn't fit that much like when Dubas did the same with Babs and this year maybe they have even more difficulty matching up with how Keefe wants to play but I think they'll come around.

Besides Burtuzzi. His issue is that he doesn't give a f*** unfortunately.

The Leafs make a lot of little bump passes, laterals, regroups all over the ice so if you're a classically north south chip and chase player (Bertuzzi), a lone ranger rusher (Domi) or a guy who used to be the Man who could have free reign with confidence (Klingberg) all the little Brodie-to-Kerfootisms are probably not that intuitive.

 

[Gallagbi]

The Leafs make a lot of little bump passes, laterals, regroups all over the ice so if you're a classically north south chip and chase player (Bertuzzi), a lone ranger rusher (Domi) or a guy who used to be the Man who could have free reign with confidence (Klingberg) all the little Brodie-to-Kerfootisms are probably not that intuitive.

We dont play a vastly different game or system than the rest of the league.

 

[Mess]

Every Leafs lose moves us 1 step closer to getting a real coach.

There is a silver lining to having to accept all the losses.

 

[Apex Predator]

I love how according to some fans every other team has success but there’s some excuse. Tampa and Vegas cheated the system, Montreal and florida got hot goaltending, avalanche and bruins had cheap contracts because their players weren’t good when they signed.

How about those teams are just better and smarter than the leafs. Why don’t any of those apply to the leafs? Didn’t hear anyone complaining when leafs cheated the system with robidas island. Our players were so good when they signed the contract that’s not fair.

 

[Stephen]

We dont play a vastly different game or system than the rest of the league.

We want to hold the puck more, will prefer to move up the ice more slowly with your lateral than initiate a quicker chip and chase... while avoiding 50/50puck retrieval scenarios. Will try the stretch pass quite a bit. Enjoy cycling the perimeter instead of crashing the net, which involves little give and go and bump passes, which requires some chemistry between linemates, also hard to achieve with new teammates and line blending.

We're missing some defensemen too but have struggled exiting the zone in an organized fashion, have looked very uncoordinated at times.

Also, our somewhat maddening PP. A lot of teams just take their formation and shoot fish in a barrel. Leafs seem to be dynamically rotating as a 5 man unit in and out of scoring position. The complex transition on the PP with the complicated half transition, followed by a series of cross ice drop backs, everyone waiting at the blueline before the alpha bringing up the rear walks it in last.

I love the concept in theory, but am skeptical because we don't have Lidstrom and Ralfalski on the back end to complete the 5 man Rushin' Five. When the team is struggling it just feels too fussy.

 

[Stephen]

I love how according to some fans every other team has success but there’s some excuse. Tampa and Vegas cheated the system, Montreal and florida got hot goaltending, avalanche and bruins had cheap contracts because their players weren’t good when they signed.

How about those teams are just better and smarter than the leafs. Why don’t any of those apply to the leafs? Didn’t hear anyone complaining when leafs cheated the system with robidas island. Our players were so good when they signed the contract that’s not fair.

Well, begs the question. Why didn't we cheat the cap more instead of reactivating Muzzin like good boys back in 2022 a la Vegas? Or if we have first hand knowledge that one goalie having a good week can derail a skill program every year in the playoffs, why not invest in a real goalie? Or if you could build a program of 6'4"+ defensemen and just pack the zone, park the bus, why didn't we just do that?

 

[notbias]

You are right. Let's keep everything status quo. Worked out so well

Keefe has been given 3 goalies. 20+players . New coaching staff in between . Yet here we are.

Keep status quo.. greatest organization is ok letting go a Stanly cup runner up coach but we have problem letting go Keefe

Another GM who was let go wanted to change things... the new GM has shuffled chairs... we've had multiple coaches with the same players, if you want a drastic change, maybe you should be asking to change the players, not the coach.

 

[rocketman588]

The Leafs make a lot of little bump passes, laterals, regroups all over the ice so if you're a classically north south chip and chase player (Bertuzzi), a lone ranger rusher (Domi) or a guy who used to be the Man who could have free reign with confidence (Klingberg) all the little Brodie-to-Kerfootisms are probably not that intuitive.

The regroups I think especially with the amount of times we do it are probably the most difficult part.

Even our o zone stuff is kinda weird. Especially for Bertuzzi I'm sure he's not used to his center finding high ice as often as Matthews does

 

[Cleetus]

Well, begs the question. Why didn't we cheat the cap more instead of reactivating Muzzin like good boys back in 2022 a la Vegas? Or if we have first hand knowledge that one goalie having a good week can derail a skill program every year in the playoffs, why not invest in a real goalie? Or if you could build a program of 6'4"+ defensemen and just pack the zone, park the bus, why didn't we just do that?

Vegas D is huge in size, and skill, they are so good on the back end

 

[notbias]

Well, begs the question. Why didn't we cheat the cap more instead of reactivating Muzzin like good boys back in 2022 a la Vegas? Or if we have first hand knowledge that one goalie having a good week can derail a skill program every year in the playoffs, why not invest in a real goalie? Or if you could build a program of 6'4"+ defensemen and just pack the zone, park the bus, why didn't we just do that?

You can't just sit players that want to play... Stone clearly is fine being a cheater, not all players are.

We already knew Kucherov was a POS.

 

[Gallagbi]

We want to hold the puck more, will prefer to move up the ice more slowly with your lateral than initiate a quicker chip and chase... while avoiding 50/50puck retrieval scenarios. Will try the stretch pass quite a bit. Enjoy cycling the perimeter instead of crashing the net, which involves little give and go and bump passes, which requires some chemistry between linemates, also hard to achieve with new teammates and line blending.

We're missing some defensemen too but have struggled exiting the zone in an organized fashion, have looked very uncoordinated at times.

Honestly i think your bias is showing, we do play possession hockey, but its not at all cost. We do crash the net and most teams operate in small spaces. Its also contrary to your stretch pass comment. It's not an earth shattering transition

 

[Cleetus]

You can't just sit players that want to play... Stone clearly is fine being a cheater, not all players are.

We already knew Kucherov was a POS.

he was hurt no? please post proof he cheated? other than that its pure speculation on your part

 

[Stephen]

Honestly i think your bias is showing, we do play possession hockey, but its not at all cost. We do crash the net and most teams operate in small spaces. Its also contrary to your stretch pass comment. It's not an earth shattering transition

Stretch pass isn't my game plan, they just throw the Hail Mary on a regular basis without the Dmen to really execute and get burned on icing calls a lot...

I'm not biased against possession by the way. Historically, this conversation we've been having for years goes back to the fact that 1) their possession game gets shut down by park the bus defenses and locked out of the slot 2) a failure of adaptation they can't make adjustments like crash the net with speed, or initiate dump and chase, hard forecheck scenarios where teams can't set up in the slot, and you paste their D into the boards on a regular basis.

In the context of this Keefe conversation, the possession game is an issue because Domi and Bertuzzi seem completely lost. I don't think it's a stretch to say they don't play Pierre Engvall hockey.