Is Keefe really the problem?

[Gallagbi]

Stretch pass isn't my game plan, they just throw the Hail Mary on a regular basis without the Dmen to really execute and get burned on icing calls a lot...

I'm not biased against possession by the way. Historically, this conversation we've been having for years goes back to the fact that 1) their possession game gets shut down by park the bus defenses and locked out of the slot 2) a failure of adaptation they can't make adjustments like crash the net with speed, or initiate dump and chase, hard forecheck scenarios where teams can't set up in the slot, and you paste their D into the boards on a regular basis.

In the context of this Keefe conversation, the possession game is an issue because Domi and Bertuzzi seem completely lost. I don't think it's a stretch to say they don't play Pierre Engvall hockey.

Im saying your biased in how you're watching the games and reinforce your narratives. Not against possession itself, but the fact you're highlighting short, crisp possession passes with long stretch passes is a good example. We do both, and for different reasons, hut

Domi and Klingberg would both be suited for possession based systems on their skillset either way. Domi is a better passer and stickhandler than someone like Engvall and Kerfoot. We also saw no real issues with ROR, Laff, Acciari fitting in upfront last year. Similar with Bunting when he joined

 

[Stephen]

Im saying your biased in how you're watching the games and reinforce your narratives. Not against possession itself, but the fact you're highlighting short, crisp possession passes with long stretch passes is a good example. We do both, and for different reasons, hut

Domi and Klingberg would both be suited for possession based systems on their skillset either way. Domi is a better passer and stickhandler than someone like Engvall and Kerfoot. We also saw no real issues with ROR, Laff, Acciari fitting in upfront last year. Similar with Bunting when he joined

Historically, my criticism of the possession game and our chats stems from our inability to adapt in the playoffs to blend in a harder forecheck, dump and chase, wreck their D and crease crash once they see the park the bus defense go up.

That's a separate item from the way the system is not intuitive to onboard new guys... You're right that this style of play would suit Prime Klingberg, when he had confidence, maybe was mentally sharp, maybe healthier, who knows what his problems are. Domi strikes me as a lower IQ straight line puck rusher who can make a clean dish. That seems to be the only play he's shone in here in Toronto vs Kerfoot - who was actually a very efficient and elegant puck carrier and heads up... just didn't do anything by the time he got in the offensive zone.

I actually thought Lafferty was awful when he got here. Had the speed of an Engvall but not the ability to match speed with his hands. He was like Gregor except Gregor holds the puck better.

 

[notbias]

he was hurt no? please post proof he cheated? other than that its pure speculation on your part

I don't think anyone can convince me that these things aren't planned out to take advantage of the cap... Vegas had no worries that he'd be ready 5 days sooner and mess with the cap, conveniently he and Kucherov were ready for game 1, not a game sooner.

You can call it bending the rules or just call it fair... but you need players willing to follow a specific timeline, including feeling 100% at the perfect time.

It's speculation the same way more than half the posts are speculation on this board... I will continue to call them cheaters because the likely scenario is they sat down and planned to manipulate the cap. You can assume the best in people, but I don't think you believe that.

 

[PromisedLand]

PK with some sensible takes IMO

 

[Martin Skoula]

Honestly i think your bias is showing, we do play possession hockey, but its not at all cost. We do crash the net and most teams operate in small spaces. Its also contrary to your stretch pass comment. It's not an earth shattering transition

Who do we even have that can do work from the perimeter? It’s basically just Nylander, everyone else has to be no more than 10 feet away from the net to be a threat. The two Cs playing 45 minutes of the game make their living between the crease and the slot.

I wish we had perimeter players that could stretch the offensive zone for us and open up more lanes like other successful teams do.

 

[fahad203]

PK with some sensible takes IMO

Easy there. You dont' want to post stuff like that around here with common sense and stuff

You may hurt some feelings.

Keefe was never the right person to begin with. On top of that, we held on to him for longer than we should have

He should have been fired when Habs beat us.

I mean we fired Pat Burns for less than this. We used to have certain standards. The team always used to come first
Burns took us to 2 conference finals, 4th year he was let go.

Here we are, still in love with Keefe, still holding on to this POS coach

He's been given 3 goalies, 20+ players last 4 years, some Stanly Cup pedigree in Schenn, O'Reilly. Some great vets in Joe Thornton, Spezza
A lot of young players

Yet this guy can't make it work, he can't take us to next level

I honestly don't understand how some people here keep defending this guy.

 

[Shooter2x]

Keefe said in nicer words 3 years ago we're F'd without our only 1 good D in Muzzin and nobody took him seriously.

Keefe also knew Andersen was the better keep over Campbell.

So perhaps he isn't the issue.

 

[pspot]

not only did they not get rid of him, they didn't just bring him back, they extended him, wtf

 

[fahad203]

not only did they not get rid of him, they didn't just bring him back, they extended him, wtf

Now flip the organization, what would Boston do?

They fired Cassidy, a coach that took them to stanly cup finals because they thought they needed a different voice, a different approach

I envy Cam Neeley. He manages how he played, no nonsense

 

[pspot]

Now flip the organization, what would Boston do?

They fired Cassidy, a coach that took them to stanly cup finals because they thought they needed a different voice, a different approach

I envy Cam Neeley. He manages how he played, no nonsense

when you've put yourself into corner with these contracts (NMC) you only have so many options, either continue to try the same thing and expect different results or make some hard choices, they kind of got rid of dubas but then kept his coach. it's kind of f***ed lol

 

[Da Mash]

I dont think Keefe is the problem........I think Tre has his vision and wanted Keefe to follow it.

The players added were all weak defensively.......Tre added them

The assistant coaches were Tre hires......Not Keefe.....and then the defensive schemed changed.
Why would Keefe change it when he has had success. Remember...we were always pretty good defensively and it was always lack of goals scored that was our issues in the playoffs.

This is what Tre set up....not Keefe.

How can he manage players he didnt add that are weak defensively? It took him years to implement his defensive scheme to his star players and they all bought in.

Is Bert good defensively? Never has been......same could be said with Domi. Klingberg is a bigger Barrie ....good offensively ....terrible defensively.

And we all have witnessed what a gong show seeing Reeves on the ice trying to chase down players. He cant skate.... has no agility on the ice ....has no hockey IQ ...offensively or defensively.

But we all heard how we needed more grit and a player who protects are stars.

How is that working out for us?

Don Cherry has brainwashed us.....we need players who are tough to play against and have some skill......Not a boxer on skates that offers no value other then fighting that is slowly being removed from hockey.

There wasnt any issues in the locker room like the mediots proclaimed......do you all see in any value in Reeves yet? It was all hogwash. Even the late Scotty Bowman didnt care about what was going on in the locker room....it was all about production on the ice. That other crap is so overrated....just like having a enforcer ...who plays 6 mins a game...trying to skate around and lay a check and in the end....gives up goals against.

Dubas had his share of mistakes here....there is no doubt....but it can be safely said that Tre moves so far have been a dissaster. We are worse defensively now then we have been for years.

JMHO

 

[egd27]

Keefe said in nicer words 3 years ago we're F'd without our only 1 good D in Muzzin and nobody took him seriously.

Keefe also knew Andersen was the better keep over Campbell.

So perhaps he isn't the issue.

There can be (and is) more that one issue.

Keefe is a big one though

 

[egd27]

How can he manage players he didnt add that are weak defensively? It took him years to implement his defensive scheme to his star players and they all bought in.

By adapting.................that's been the main knock against him since the CBJ series in his first season. And adapting doesn't mean stacking or shuffling a forward line every few games.

 

[Da Mash]

By adapting.................that's been the main knock against him since the CBJ series in his first season. And adapting doesn't mean stacking or shuffling a forward line every few games.

Hard to adapt when implementing a new defensive scheme he wanted no part of.

He had to move players around because he had two players in Bert and Domi that he had no clue where they would fit and both were terrible defensively. You can only protect so many. We already have Willy who is dinamic but has his defensive brain farts.

There is a reason he was moving Burt and Domi around. You have to surround them with players that are not bad defensively.

And we can all see how Keefer is trying to adapt his defencemen using a new scheme. None of them have been great in adapting. Then you have to shelter Klingberg. .....and shelter Reese because both of them are just useless on the ice defensively.

Hard to make chicken salad with chicken shit ....

 

[Mess]

I dont think Keefe is the problem........I think Tre has his vision and wanted Keefe to follow it.

The players added were all weak defensively.......Tre added them

The assistant coaches were Tre hires......Not Keefe.....and then the defensive schemed changed.
Why would Keefe change it when he has had success. Remember...we were always pretty good defensively and it was always lack of goals scored that was our issues in the playoffs.

Added offense is not expected to come from the core 4 forwards but the surrounding cast so ...

How do you address a lack of secondary scoring by bringing in Offensive or Defensive players?

Instead of improved balanced offense and defense coming at the expense of the Core 4 that consume 1/2 the teams Salary Cap, the only other way is to sacrifice defense to improve offense.

Leafs Dcore ranked 29th in offense from the defense last year of 32 teams. If you wanted to improve that would you sign an offensive Dman like Klingberg for $4.15 mil capable of manning PP#1 or r re-sign and defensive Luke Schenn for $3.5 mil manning the bottom pairing and PK?

Leafs defense core strong defensively is also not supported by playoff stats..

Brodie (-3) + McCabe (-7) + Giordando (-7) + Holl (-7) combined for a -24 +/- while contributing ZERO goals in 11 games. While Samsonov provided < .900 SV% in the playoffs.

 

[nuck]

Added offense is not expected to come from the core 4 forwards but the surrounding cast so ...

How do you address a lack of secondary scoring by bringing in Offensive or Defensive players?

Instead of improved balanced offense and defense coming at the expense of the Core 4 that consume 1/2 the teams Salary Cap, the only other way is to sacrifice defense to improve offense.

Leafs Dcore ranked 29th in offense from the defense last year of 32 teams. If you wanted to improve that would you sign an offensive Dman like Klingberg for $4.15 mil capable of manning PP#1 or r re-sign and defensive Luke Schenn for $3.5 mil manning the bottom pairing and PK?

Leafs defense core strong defensively is also not supported by playoff stats..

Brodie (-3) + McCabe (-7) + Giordando (-7) + Holl (-7) combined for a -24 +/- while contributing ZERO goals in 11 games. While Samsonov provided < .900 SV% in the playoffs.

View attachment 766119

I don't think Klinger was brought in because Tre thought they needed him. After how good Schenn looked in the playoffs why would an outsider come in and assume he needed to add the opposite? There were no Klingbergs on Trelivings Flames. he added guys like Tanev and Zadorov and Hamonic. Klinger was a Sheldon ask, or at least that type of player was. Dallas Klingberg played Keefe hockey and he still might get close to that once the defensive guys get back. Not a fan of the player but unless he has health or lifestyle issues this career worst 13 game stretch is not permanent.

 

[therealkoho]

I don't think anyone can convince me that these things aren't planned out to take advantage of the cap... Vegas had no worries that he'd be ready 5 days sooner and mess with the cap, conveniently he and Kucherov were ready for game 1, not a game sooner.

You can call it bending the rules or just call it fair... but you need players willing to follow a specific timeline, including feeling 100% at the perfect time.

It's speculation the same way more than half the posts are speculation on this board... I will continue to call them cheaters because the likely scenario is they sat down and planned to manipulate the cap. You can assume the best in people, but I don't think you believe that.

The players did not cheat, they did however collude with the people who planned the cap circumvention. Who is of course the GM and his staff.

That said the Leafs have done it as well and almost every year the cap has been in effect by using the LTIR to make room for the overages.

Arizona does it backwards by collecting injured players to get to the cap floor so they can survive the dearth of revenue that's a consequence of playing hockey in the desert. Couple that with not putting a winning team on the ice, and there you have it revenues that are 30-40% under what they really need to operate at a profit. Unlike the Leafs they do not have the option of raising ticket prices to meet the bottom line.

 

[Da Mash]

Added offense is not expected to come from the core 4 forwards but the surrounding cast so ...

How do you address a lack of secondary scoring by bringing in Offensive or Defensive players?

Instead of improved balanced offense and defense coming at the expense of the Core 4 that consume 1/2 the teams Salary Cap, the only other way is to sacrifice defense to improve offense.

Leafs Dcore ranked 29th in offense from the defense last year of 32 teams. If you wanted to improve that would you sign an offensive Dman like Klingberg for $4.15 mil capable of manning PP#1 or r re-sign and defensive Luke Schenn for $3.5 mil manning the bottom pairing and PK?

Leafs defense core strong defensively is also not supported by playoff stats..

Brodie (-3) + McCabe (-7) + Giordando (-7) + Holl (-7) combined for a -24 +/- while contributing ZERO goals in 11 games. While Samsonov provided < .900 SV% in the playoffs.

View attachment 766119

The issue is Tre added supposed scoring at the expense of defense. Why couldnt it not be both. You know...a player that is reliable on defense but offers scoring. Bert is lost defensively.
Domi has been going from team to team because his offense doesnt overcome his defensive liabilities. And lets not pretend Klingberg offence is hiding his defensive issues.

Gio should never be in the top 6 ...his time has passed and we all seen how he ran out of gas at the end of the regular season. Holl is gone but helped our PK more then then plugs we have now. Brodie went thru hell last year with personal issues.

So Tre came in and looked at that stat you provided and our defensive core and decided to bring in Klingberg and change our defensive scheme to mimic Bostons?

Its a five man game to play defence and offence....Tre added players that all have issues defensively. If the forwards are cheating to pump up their stats because they are FA next year...how is that helping our depleted defensive core?

And lets not start with Reese and his lack of any hockey ability. We might as well play a man short with him on the ice. Its hard to be a constant minus player playing 6 mins a night...but thats what he has given this team and nothing more.

Tre wanted more scoring....at the expense of our defence.

Now we are back to the Wilson days ...trying to outscore teams constantly.

 

[therealkoho]

I don't think Klinger was brought in because Tre thought they needed him. After how good Schenn looked in the playoffs why would an outsider come in and assume he needed to add the opposite? There were no Klingbergs on Trelivings Flames. he added guys like Tanev and Zadorov and Hamonic. Klinger was a Sheldon ask, or at least that type of player was. Dallas Klingberg played Keefe hockey and he still might get close to that once the defensive guys get back. Not a fan of the player but unless he has health or lifestyle issues this career worst 13 game stretch is not permanent.

Is Sheldon a coach in the NHL?
Do the Leafs not have any pro scouts?
Do they not have a director of player personnel?
Do they have an assistant GM?

Ask yourself what any of those people do as far as their job responsibilities go.

Then ask yourself if any of them have final say in acquisition of players.

Who hired the assistant coaches, do you think Keefe had a hand in it?

The Klingberg signing is a mystery, it really makes no sense to anyone. No coach in the entire NHL wanted to gamble on a guy who had once upon a time looked like he was in charge, but it had become apparent that he had lost his game. Coach's are there to win, it's how they make their money, they're not going to want a guy who can't possibly help them win.

The Leafs and Keefe wanted Dumba, Dumba wanted way too much money. Klingberg was a fallback position for the GM not the coach.

 

[Strangle]

Fire Keefe

My opinion has not changed

 

[Strangle]

Stretch pass isn't my game plan, they just throw the Hail Mary on a regular basis without the Dmen to really execute and get burned on icing calls a lot...

I'm not biased against possession by the way. Historically, this conversation we've been having for years goes back to the fact that 1) their possession game gets shut down by park the bus defenses and locked out of the slot 2) a failure of adaptation they can't make adjustments like crash the net with speed, or initiate dump and chase, hard forecheck scenarios where teams can't set up in the slot, and you paste their D into the boards on a regular basis.

In the context of this Keefe conversation, the possession game is an issue because Domi and Bertuzzi seem completely lost. I don't think it's a stretch to say they don't play Pierre Engvall hockey.

I don’t know much about X’s and O’s, I do know a lot about results though

This sounds convincing to me

 

[nuck]

Is Sheldon a coach in the NHL?
Do the Leafs not have any pro scouts?
Do they not have a director of player personnel?
Do they have an assistant GM?

Ask yourself what any of those people do as far as their job responsibilities go.

Then ask yourself if any of them have final say in acquisition of players.

The GM is supposed to give the coach the players he needs to succeed. When Sheldon says "don't fire me because I wanted Woll in the playoffs but KD said stick with Sammy" and "I was forced to play Holl but I really need a guy with way more offense" he separates himself from any past failures because he was playing with a lineup that wasn't his. Thats how he kept his job because the new GM normally brings in his own guys. When SK says "I need guys like this" do you actually think Tre doesn't discuss with him before making any addition? This is Keefe and Shanny's team, Treliving has been there 15 minutes. The GM or maybe the President has the final say but everyone on that list must have given the thumbs up, whether it was a qualified one or not.

Who hired the assistant coaches, do you think Keefe had a hand in it?

The Klingberg signing is a mystery, it really makes no sense to anyone. No coach in the entire NHL wanted to gamble on a guy who had once upon a time looked like he was in charge, but it had become apparent that he had lost his game. Coach's are there to win, it's how they make their money, they're not going to want a guy who can't possibly help them win.

The Leafs and Keefe wanted Dumba, Dumba wanted way too much money. Klingberg was a fallback position for the GM not the coach.

How do you know the Leafs and Keefe wanted Dumba? Some people on this board seemed to but Dumba was worse than Klinger last year and he still is because his A game was offense and hitting and he can't do either any more.

Anyways it seems like you are saying no coach in the entire league wants to gamble on a player who can't possibly help them win yet Treliving adds the guy in spite of this and against Keefe's advice. I would say there is zero chance that happened and that every summer personnel move was in consultation with both the coach and the Prez because both are down to their last life with no margin for error. Treliving is the only guy that could maybe survive another playoff failure but his focus has to be giving the coach the players he says he needs to win. Anything less is detrimental to coach and Prez staying around so I doubt he was telling Shanahan to back off and let him do it his way.

Tre is a new guy coming to a team that has won 250 games in the last 5 years. He isn't going to try to reinvent the wheel and he is not going to go out of his way to add a type of player he has never added before because of some temporary insanity. It would be interesting to know what the plan B was if Klingberg didn't sign but I suspect it would be a similar skill set.

 

[therealkoho]

The GM is supposed to give the coach the players he needs to succeed. When Sheldon says "don't fire me because I wanted Woll in the playoffs but KD said stick with Sammy" and "I was forced to play Holl but I really need a guy with way more offense" he separates himself from any past failures because he was playing with a lineup that wasn't his. Thats how he kept his job because the new GM normally brings in his own guys. When SK says "I need guys like this" do you actually think Tre doesn't discuss with him before making any addition? This is Keefe and Shanny's team, Treliving has been there 15 minutes. The GM or maybe the President has the final say but everyone on that list must have given the thumbs up, whether it was a qualified one or not.


How do you know the Leafs and Keefe wanted Dumba? Some people on this board seemed to but Dumba was worse than Klinger last year and he still is because his A game was offense and hitting and he can't do either any more.

Anyways it seems like you are saying no coach in the entire league wants to gamble on a player who can't possibly help them win yet Treliving adds the guy in spite of this and against Keefe's advice. I would say there is zero chance that happened and that every summer personnel move was in consultation with both the coach and the Prez because both are down to their last life with no margin for error. Treliving is the only guy that could maybe survive another playoff failure but his focus has to be giving the coach the players he says he needs to win. Anything less is detrimental to coach and Prez staying around so I doubt he was telling Shanahan to back off and let him do it his way.

Tre is a new guy coming to a team that has won 250 games in the last 5 years. He isn't going to try to reinvent the wheel and he is not going to go out of his way to add a type of player he has never added before because of some temporary insanity. It would be interesting to know what the plan B was if Klingberg didn't sign but I suspect it would be a similar skill set.

Friedman on Albergas' show Wed or Thurs

All those guys I mentioned will sit and discuss who's available what their value is to the team etc. The GM and the money guys discuss how they think they can spend, once that gets settled, the GM will then contact the players agent, it happens sometimes that the player has already made the first move and contacted the team

There isn't a coach in the league who tells the GM who he has to sign. Some GMs ask for suggestions in order to start the process. In years gone by there were coaches who could make demands, but those days are gone.

I find it farcical that quite a few people here have a certain belief and voice it on a daily basis that Shelly is some kind of neandertal incapable of cogent thought and then there are others who somehow believe Keefe is some kind of evil genius pulling the levers of power and exercizing some kind of mind control over his bosses. I mean really how could he, other than that Calder, truthfully speaking he hasnt won enough of anything yet, to tell some of the players he wants a better effort out of them.

Regardless, everything now is done by committee, just like any other billion dollar corporate entity does it, especially an entity like MLS&E with a board that eats its own young. There are only a few teams left that might be run by a singular owner, there is just too much money at stake in today's league.

Ultimately however its the player that makes the final decision.

 

[nuck]

Friedman on Albergas' show Wed or Thurs

All those guys I mentioned will sit and discuss who's available what their value is to the team etc. The GM and the money guys discuss how they think they can spend, once that gets settled, the GM will then contact the players agent, it happens sometimes that the player has already made the first move and contacted the team

There isn't a coach in the league who tells the GM who he has to sign. Some GMs ask for suggestions in order to start the process. In years gone by there were coaches who could make demands, but those days are gone.

I find it farcical that quite a few people here have a certain belief and voice it on a daily basis that Shelly is some kind of neandertal incapable of cogent thought and then there are others who somehow believe Keefe is some kind of evil genius pulling the levers of power and exercizing some kind of mind control over his bosses. I mean really how could he, other than that Calder, truthfully speaking he hasnt won enough of anything yet, to tell some of the players he wants a better effort out of them.

Regardless, everything now is done by committee, just like any other billion dollar corporate entity does it, especially an entity like MLS&E with a board that eats its own young. There are only a few teams left that might be run by a singular owner, there is just too much money at stake in today's league.

Ultimately however its the player that makes the final decision.

Yeah I watched a couple of those. I still don't agree that Keefe had no input at all but at the same time if Dumba was Tre's first target and Klingberg was the fallback that just looks like a desperate move to add a 1 year veteran RD with any mobility at all. No similarity between the two players. I consider Dumba to be a worse pylon than Klinger and not a player that fits Keefe hockey at all (or any hockey with the goal of winning games) so agree Tre wears the horns for being interested in either.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Oilers fired coach
Leafs
?