Is it time for a rebuild ?

[bicboi64]

Hi Sens Fan, much love. What would the Sens be offering?

I'd start the conversation with:
-Zaitsev
-Greig,
-a top 10 protected 2023 1st rounder or unprotected 2024 first rounder
- one of Jacob Bernard Docker/Lassi Thomson
-Tyler Boucher
-2nd rounder

for Parayko and a 5th.

You guys get a blue chip prospect in Greig, defensive prospects that have been cooking for a while in JBD or Thomson, a hard hitting prospect in Boucher, and most importantly, Nikita Zaitsev, who will help you get one of Bedard, Mitchkov or Fantilli.

 

[ValHaller]

I'd start the conversation with:
-Zaitsev
-Greig,
-a top 10 protected 2023 1st rounder or unprotected 2024 first rounder
- one of Jacob Bernard Docker/Lassi Thomson
-Tyler Boucher
-2nd rounder

for Parayko and a 5th.

You guys get a blue chip prospect in Greig, defensive prospects that have been cooking for a while in JBD or Thomson, a hard hitting prospect in Boucher, and most importantly, Nikita Zaitsev, who will help you get one of Bedard, Mitchkov or Fantilli.

You guys waived Zaitsev today.

 

[bicboi64]

You guys waived Zaitsev today.

Our coach DJ will figure out a way to get him back on the ice. He's in love with him.

 

[MissouriMook]

We have a brutal November and December schedule. If we keep this up, we’ll be dead last in a hurry. Then, you know Army will sell the UFA’s, which will help the tank even more.

And if that happens, you know next season will be worse. I think the rebuild is underway, they just don’t know it yet.

I look at the remaining schedule for November and see three wins with how they are playing now, give or take. That leaves us at 6-16-0. I look at the December schedule and we could easily go 5-10-0 if we don't turn our play around. That puts us at 11-26-0. Absolutely sellers' territory.

On the other hand, all it takes is a couple of gritty wins to turn this thing around. As I've said before, we have a lot of good to great individuals that are playing very poorly as a team right now. I don't think we see the renaissance that we saw in early 2019, but I have a hard time believing that this group will continue to flounder this badly and not find their stride. They looked pretty solid in the game in Edmonton, so we know that game is in there somewhere.

 

[LGB]

It's time. I don't foresee this group making another deep run. Blow it up while some of the pieces still hold value. Core players are Thomas, Kyrou, Buchnevich, and Faulk. We have some decent forward prospects. Need to focus on rebuilding the defense. Maybe we could even be a playoff team again next year if we do it right.

 

[PJJJP]

If we go for the rebuild I am optimistically hoping we can walk into the draft with an additional 2 first.

 

[Mike Liut]

I still don’t understand why Army built such a soft team with Berube as the coach.

If we go for the rebuild I am optimistically hoping we can walk into the draft with an additional 2 first.

Should get a 2nd for Barbs too. And maybe a 3rd for Mikkola

 

[Robb_K]

I honestly don't understand how Thomas can be excused while Kyrou is constantly vilified, and Thomas is one of my favorite Blues. I can honestly say I haven't noticed Thomas in the majority of the games I've watched this season and he seems content to be a passenger over a leader.

These attacks on Kyrou's attitude are ridiculous to me. If Kyrou was going through this stretch of play in the middle of the season when the Blues are playing well, no one bats an eye. I see a player who's trying to be a difference maker and is dealing with the pressure of being a more prominent cog within the team. Is he lackadaisical on defense at times? No doubt about that, but the same can be said for many star forwards.

It's easy to hate on Kyrou right now, but he's at least been noticeable and generated many scoring chances. I can't say the same for any other forward right now outside of Schenn.

My problem's with Kyrou's development are strictly related to him and his progress or lack of it in the areas where his game is deficient. He hasn't shown much progress, at all in learning to play defence, or finishing breakaways and controlling the puck in front of the net when he needs time to get off a shot. Proficiency at that comes with hours and hours of practising that. His % of scoring in that situation is dismal, compared to The NHL's star scorers. I'm not saying he should be up to their level instantly, so he can live up to his new contract. But, it looks to me like he's made NO progress in that direction over the 3 years I've been watching him. The same seems to be true about his progress/lack of it in amount of plays he tries hard to defend. The Blues are a team whose lineup and system depends heavily on TEAM defence. It seems to me that he almost never tries to help out. No one expects him to be a shut-down forward on a checking line. But, he hasn't seemed to be the slightest bit better at it than he was as a rookie.

His biggest upside potential value is as a high scorer. His skating has brought him loads of clean breakaways with loads of space and time ahead of when his opponent pursuers arrive. And yet he scores on only a few of them. He could move from a 27-30 goal scorer to a 50+ superstar goal scorer if he could get his conversion % up to where some of the better finishers do. And from what I've seen in playing forward and watching high-level organised hockey for over 70 years, I'm sure he is fully capable of getting there if he would put the time and effort into it. The players who want to excel badly enough do those sorts of things. Clearly, it's not as high a priority in Kyrou's life.

 

[BlueDream]

How untouchable is Parayko?

Asking as a Sens fan

He’s nowhere near untouchable. He’s not that good anymore.

 

[Oberyn]

My problem's with Kyrou's development are strictly related to him and his progress or lack of it in the areas where his game is deficient. He hasn't shown much progress, at all in learning to play defence, or finishing breakaways and controlling the puck in front of the net when he needs time to get off a shot. Proficiency at that comes with hours and hours of practising that. His % of scoring in that situation is dismal, compared to The NHL's star scorers. I'm not saying he should be up to their level instantly, so he can live up to his new contract. But, it looks to me like he's made NO progress in that direction over the 3 years I've been watching him. The same seems to be true about his progress/lack of it in amount of plays he tries hard to defend. The Blues are a team whose lineup and system depends heavily on TEAM defence. It seems to me that he almost never tries to help out. No one expects him to be a shut-down forward on a checking line. But, he hasn't seemed to be the slightest bit better at it than he was as a rookie.

His biggest upside potential value is as a high score. His skating has brought him loads of clean breakaways with loads of space and time ahead of when his opponent pursuers arrive. And yet he scores on only a few of them. He could move from a 27-30 goal scorer to a 50+ superstar goal scorer if he could get his conversion % up to where some of the better finishers do. And from what I've seen in playing forward and watching high-level organised hockey for over 70 years, I'm sure he is fully capable of getting there if he would put the time and effort into it. The players who want to excel badly enough do those sort of things. Clearly, it's not as high a priority in Kyrou's life.

That's a good solution, just score more. If it was that simple to become a 50+ goal scorer, we'd see scoring like back in the 80s. I think you underestimate just how hard it is to score 50+ goals in this league. I do agree that Kyrou hasn't been converting on his chances as he should, but to say that he'd instantly be a 50+ goal scorer from just practicing harder is pretty asinine.

I'm not sure what exactly you want Kyrou to do, practice breakaways everyday? You say he's fully capable to being a 50+ goal scorer if he puts the time and effort in, what is this time and effort being directed towards? I'm sure Kyrou is constantly working on his technical abilities such as stickhandling and shooting, but apparently he's missing that secret sauce to potting an additional 20 goals per season.

In terms of his defensive ability, I'm with you that he's not great. I have seen some progression from him in terms of putting pressure on the puck carriers but he definitely needs work. But I also haven't seen much progression from Tarasenko or even Thomas in that area.

I guess where I'm most confused is that you label Thomas as a keeper despite the fact that he's been pretty abysmal this whole season and hasn't shown much progression from his breakout season last year. What has Thomas done to show you that he's a keeper? He hasn't shown the willingness to try and take over games. His conversion rate at scoring is pretty poor as well considering all the times I've witnessed him throwing his head back in frustration every time he misses a chance. His defensive play isn't much better than Kyrou's, if at all. His offensive zone entries are pretty one-dimensional as all he does is drive wide and then try a quick cut back.

Thomas has been getting a huge pass this season and I don't understand why people aren't calling him out like they are with Kyrou.

 

[Majorityof1]

That's a good solution, just score more. If it was that simple to become a 50+ goal scorer, we'd see scoring like back in the 80s. I think you underestimate just how hard it is to score 50+ goals in this league. I do agree that Kyrou hasn't been converting on his chances as he should, but to say that he'd instantly be a 50+ goal scorer from just practicing harder is pretty asinine.

I'm not sure what exactly you want Kyrou to do, practice breakaways everyday? You say he's fully capable to being a 50+ goal scorer if he puts the time and effort in, what is this time and effort being directed towards? I'm sure Kyrou is constantly working on his technical abilities such as stickhandling and shooting, but apparently he's missing that secret sauce to potting an additional 20 goals per season.

In terms of his defensive ability, I'm with you that he's not great. I have seen some progression from him in terms of putting pressure on the puck carriers but he definitely needs work. But I also haven't seen much progression from Tarasenko or even Thomas in that area.

I guess where I'm most confused is that you label Thomas as a keeper despite the fact that he's been pretty abysmal this whole season and hasn't shown much progression from his breakout season last year. What has Thomas done to show you that he's a keeper? He hasn't shown the willingness to try and take over games. His conversion rate at scoring is pretty poor as well considering all the times I've witnessed him throwing his head back in frustration every time he misses a chance. His defensive play isn't much better than Kyrou's, if at all. His offensive zone entries are pretty one-dimensional as all he does is drive wide and then try a quick cut back.

Thomas has been getting a huge pass this season and I don't understand why people aren't calling him out like they are with Kyrou.

Its the snowball effect of a mob mentality. A few people decided early on that Kyrou was bad. So they kept harping on him. Even though the ring leader is a known fool and troll, it starts to seep into people's brains from sheer repitition. They start watching Kyrou more and more closely. They see every mistake because they are looking for them and because the troll is pointing them out. So they start believing, and unless Kryou does something positive they cannot ignore, they do ignore any positives.

Then a few more people are convinced, and they start harping on every little mistake Kryou makes as well. Now people who ignored the troll are listening to these new people because they are a bit more reasonable than the troll who started it all. And so it snow balls and snow balls until Kyrou gets hot and scores 10 points in 5 games or something to shut them all up. But that seed of doub is now permanantly wedged in their little pea brains. One more cold streak and he's back to being lazy or whatever BS they dreamed up.

 

[Mike Liut]

I think Kyrou will be a heck of a player. He’s going through a little funk right now as the entire team sucks.

On another note, if we lose to SJ tomorrow night, look out below.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I think Kyrou will be a heck of a player. He’s going through a little funk right now as the entire team sucks.

On another note, if we lose to SJ tomorrow night, look out below.

Yeah, Columbus, you better watch out.

 

[Spektre]

Pieces that may be of interest:
Bernard-Docker
Thomson
Brannstrom
DeBrincat
Jarventie
Boucher
Greig
2023 1st (protected)
2024 1st
2nd rounders
Other recent picks not in NHL

Not sure what the ask would be tbh.

Ottawa would give up on DeBrincat???

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I'd start the conversation with:
-Zaitsev
-Greig,
-a top 10 protected 2023 1st rounder or unprotected 2024 first rounder
- one of Jacob Bernard Docker/Lassi Thomson
-Tyler Boucher
-2nd rounder

for Parayko and a 5th.

You guys get a blue chip prospect in Greig, defensive prospects that have been cooking for a while in JBD or Thomson, a hard hitting prospect in Boucher, and most importantly, Nikita Zaitsev, who will help you get one of Bedard, Mitchkov or Fantilli.

If we decide to blow it up this is likely type of package we would expect. Not sure we are there yet.

 

[Robb_K]

Its the snowball effect of a mob mentality. A few people decided early on that Kyrou was bad. So they kept harping on him. Even though the ring leader is a known fool and troll, it starts to seep into people's brains from sheer repitition. They start watching Kyrou more and more closely. They see every mistake because they are looking for them and because the troll is pointing them out. So they start believing, and unless Kryou does something positive they cannot ignore, they do ignore any positives.

Then a few more people are convinced, and they start harping on every little mistake Kryou makes as well. Now people who ignored the troll are listening to these new people because they are a bit more reasonable than the troll who started it all. And so it snow balls and snow balls until Kyrou gets hot and scores 10 points in 5 games or something to shut them all up. But that seed of doub is now permanantly wedged in their little pea brains. One more cold streak and he's back to being lazy or whatever BS they dreamed up.

I've been on this forum for the last 16 years and 6 years before that on other Blues fora. Since when have I joined in on a mob mentality? My point is that Kyrou has enough natural talent to be among the higher goal scorers in The NHL, if he puts the work in. My point was that I haven't seen ANY progress in his ability to finish on scoring chances, when there should have been some that we could have noticed over the past 3 or 4 years. My point that he hasn't shown much progress in his defensive game is a similar sign to me that neither are a high priority to him. But I DIDN'T say that he would be a 50-goal scorer in The NHL overnight if he would just spend more hours practising his moves and shots than he is doing now. It is something that he should have been doing for the past 10 years, and the next 3 or 4, before he could reach his peak. But it just bothers me that I've seen no visible progress in that area. I have seen him try to help out on defence a little more over the past 2 seasons. But not as much as I would like to have seen. Thomas, at least, seems to be trying harder to improve his game. He's gotten a lot stronger, and shoots more often now, is much better at face-offs, and is getting better at defence, albeit slowly, but its reasonably steady, and inching in the right direction.

I agree that Tarasenko coasts a lot between his "fully on" bursts. He's never been a totally well-rounded forward, like O'Reilly. But his shooting skill and ability to take over a game and provide scoring all by himself made him worth his salary for most of his career. I don't give a free pass to all the others than Kyrou in the lineup who seem to be playing nervously, or without much energy. I'm not just down on Kyrou. It's a team chemistry and culture problem.

I was just looking at Kyrou in a vacuum, related to what I think he should have been doing over the past 4 years for the good of his own career, which would also have been better for his team. If Kyrou is going to be a slight detriment on defence, he'll need to score a fair amount more, and be able to take over games a lot more. I agree that both Thomas and Kyrou have been pressing, trying to "live up to the new contracts" they just signed. And it comes at a bad time for them with The Team's defence down a few of their expected regulars, and with their aging veterans less able to perform well than before. I think Thomas showed us a lot of improvement last season, and wouldn't want to give up on him too early, as he helped the players around him quite a bit. Yes, he still has a lot to work on, as does Kyrou. I'd still be willing to give Kyrou up in a trade more easily than Thomas. But I wouldn't give him up in a trade unless The Blues would get back a young player with what I and the majority of NHL GMs would consider a player with a better upside than him. There's no question that this team needs to get younger, stronger, tougher, more skilled and faster, and their current window to be a true Stanley Cup winner has shut. So, they, at least need a re-tooling, which probably means Tarasenko traded by the deadline, and maybe O'Reilly, too.

 

[Mike Liut]

Yeah, Columbus, you better watch out.

Lmao

 

[Mike Liut]

This has the makings of the year sold off Weight abd Guerin for 1sts. We had three 1sts that year and picked Perron, Oshie and Berglund.

Are my facts correct? I know my memory isn’t the best sometimes.

 

[Stealth JD]

This has the makings of the year sold off Weight abd Guerin for 1sts. We had three 1sts that year and picked Perron, Oshie and Berglund.

Are my facts correct? I know my memory isn’t the best sometimes.

Your memory fails.
Oshie was 05
EJ and Berglund 06
Eller, Cole & Perron 07

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

This has the makings of the year sold off Weight abd Guerin for 1sts. We had three 1sts that year and picked Perron, Oshie and Berglund.

Are my facts correct? I know my memory isn’t the best sometimes.

Oshie was 2005. Berglund and Johnson 2006. Ellen, Perron, and Cole 2007.

 

[Mike Liut]

Your memory fails.
Oshie was 05
EJ and Berglund 06
Eller, Cole & Perron 07

Eller, Cole and Perron is who I was thinking of. Thanks for the clarification

Oshie was 2005. Berglund and Johnson 2006. Ellen, Perron, and Cole 2007.

Thanks. I can’t like comments, im still in timeout.

 

[ezcreepin]

My problem's with Kyrou's development are strictly related to him and his progress or lack of it in the areas where his game is deficient. He hasn't shown much progress, at all in learning to play defence, or finishing breakaways and controlling the puck in front of the net when he needs time to get off a shot. Proficiency at that comes with hours and hours of practising that. His % of scoring in that situation is dismal, compared to The NHL's star scorers. I'm not saying he should be up to their level instantly, so he can live up to his new contract. But, it looks to me like he's made NO progress in that direction over the 3 years I've been watching him. The same seems to be true about his progress/lack of it in amount of plays he tries hard to defend. The Blues are a team whose lineup and system depends heavily on TEAM defence. It seems to me that he almost never tries to help out. No one expects him to be a shut-down forward on a checking line. But, he hasn't seemed to be the slightest bit better at it than he was as a rookie.

His biggest upside potential value is as a high score. His skating has brought him loads of clean breakaways with loads of space and time ahead of when his opponent pursuers arrive. And yet he scores on only a few of them. He could move from a 27-30 goal scorer to a 50+ superstar goal scorer if he could get his conversion % up to where some of the better finishers do. And from what I've seen in playing forward and watching high-level organised hockey for over 70 years, I'm sure he is fully capable of getting there if he would put the time and effort into it. The players who want to excel badly enough do those sort of things. Clearly, it's not as high a priority in Kyrou's life.

I think the biggest criticism on Kyrou is that he HAS the speed and skill to be a "two-way forward". Now we can debate how good of a two-way player he would be, but it's aggravating that he will take shifts off to focus on offense exclusively or he will coast and defer on defending. If he would just attempt to check opposing players, stick check, literally just hound the other team, he would be effective. Plus, when he is in a rut like he is right now, he can contribute and not be a net negative on the ice. He can focus on playing a simple game which typically results in getting chances and more importantly confidence back in your offensive game.

 

[TruBlu]

A rebuild is only going to happen if/when we reach the point of no return this season. If we are 98% mathematically out of the playoffs come the TDL I look for both Tank and ROR to be loaned out for picks. I don't see a coaching change coming like it did back when Yeo was ousted. I think the roster is faulty for various different reasons, but we have a good young core to build around. The big problem right now is that we have money tied up in our big contracts with guys that are aging and probably not looking at being here next year. A bigger problem is that our farm is depleted. That absolutely has to be addressed as of yesterday. A solid couple of years picking up some back end help and centers with our high picks would help.

I just don't see a scenario where ROR is here next year. He knows he's entering that last big contract territory and he's going to be looking to maximize his money. We've seen how DA deals with those contracts. He's never going to extend length of contract/money to anyone in their 30's. If we end up in rebuild territory, I hope that we don't p***y foot around with it. We need to shed the salary on our aging guys and try and line up another core group with youth who will be ready to compete for a cup in three years. If we just try to make a couple moves every season to stay in the playoff hunt, I think we'll be in for a long stretch of seasons with glaring mediocrity.

 

[cmcalum]

A rebuild is only going to happen if/when we reach the point of no return this season. If we are 98% mathematically out of the playoffs come the TDL I look for both Tank and ROR to be loaned out for picks. I don't see a coaching change coming like it did back when Yeo was ousted. I think the roster is faulty for various different reasons, but we have a good young core to build around. The big problem right now is that we have money tied up in our big contracts with guys that are aging and probably not looking at being here next year. A bigger problem is that our farm is depleted. That absolutely has to be addressed as of yesterday. A solid couple of years picking up some back end help and centers with our high picks would help.

I just don't see a scenario where ROR is here next year. He knows he's entering that last big contract territory and he's going to be looking to maximize his money. We've seen how DA deals with those contracts. He's never going to extend length of contract/money to anyone in their 30's. If we end up in rebuild territory, I hope that we don't p***y foot around with it. We need to shed the salary on our aging guys and try and line up another core group with youth who will be ready to compete for a cup in three years. If we just try to make a couple moves every season to stay in the playoff hunt, I think we'll be in for a long stretch of seasons with glaring mediocrity.

Totally agree with this sentiment. I see no way that ROR is with the Blues next year. He’ll want a big contract since it is his last one and there is no way the Blues should give a longer term contract to an aging player. ROR was always slow but watching him this year is painful. I love what he has done for the Blues but sadly it is time to move on.

 

[Oberyn]

I've been on this forum for the last 16 years and 6 years before that on other Blues fora. Since when have I joined in on a mob mentality? My point is that Kyrou has enough natural talent to be among the higher goal scorers in The NHL, if he puts the work in. My point was that I haven't seen ANY progress in his ability to finish on scoring chances, when there should have been some that we could have noticed over the past 3 or 4 years. My point that he hasn't shown much progress in his defensive game is a similar sign to me that neither are a high priority to him. But I DIDN'T say that he would be a 50-goal scorer in The NHL overnight if he would just spend more hours practising his moves and shots than he is doing now. It is something that he should have been doing for the past 10 years, and the next 3 or 4, before he could reach his peak. But it just bothers me that I've seen no visible progress in that area. I have seen him try to help out on defence a little more over the past 2 seasons. But not as much as I would like to have seen. Thomas, at least, seems to be trying harder to improve his game. He's gotten a lot stronger, and shoots more often now, is much better at face-offs, and is getting better at defence, albeit slowly, but its reasonably steady, and inching in the right direction.

I agree that Tarasenko coasts a lot between his "fully on" bursts. He's never been a totally well-rounded forward, like O'Reilly. But his shooting skill and ability to take over a game and provide scoring all by himself made him worth his salary for most of his career. I don't give a free pass to all the others than Kyrou in the lineup who seem to be playing nervously, or without much energy. I'm not just down on Kyrou. It's a team chemistry and culture problem.

I was just looking at Kyrou in a vacuum, related to what I think he should have been doing over the past 4 years for the good of his own career, which would also have been better for his team. If Kyrou is going to be a slight detriment on defence, he'll need to score a fair amount more, and be able to take over games a lot more. I agree that both Thomas and Kyrou have been pressing, trying to "live up to the new contracts" they just signed. And it comes at a bad time for them with The Team's defence down a few of their expected regulars, and with their aging veterans less able to perform well than before. I think Thomas showed us a lot of improvement last season, and wouldn't want to give up on him too early, as he helped the players around him quite a bit. Yes, he still has a lot to work on, as does Kyrou. I'd still be willing to give Kyrou up in a trade more easily than Thomas. But I wouldn't give him up in a trade unless The Blues would get back a young player with what I and the majority of NHL GMs would consider a player with a better upside than him. There's no question that this team needs to get younger, stronger, tougher, more skilled and faster, and their current window to be a true Stanley Cup winner has shut. So, they, at least need a re-tooling, which probably means Tarasenko traded by the deadline, and maybe O'Reilly, too.

I can see where you're coming from, and I'll also mention that I respect you a ton as a poster Robb. You've been on this board longer than I have and your insight is always very thoughtful.

I do still disagree that Kyrou hasn't shown progression. You don't go from 35 points to 75 points without developing your game in some areas, and in addition he scored 7 goals in 12 playoff games. I watched all his goals from last season and he scored on a decent chunk of breakaways or just alone in front of the net. To me, he's going through a cold spell where nothing he's putting toward net seems to go in. He went through something similar last year where he went 11 games without a goal. It's the nature of being a streaky scorer.

I think it's also unfair to say that Thomas showed a lot of improvement last season and wouldn't want to give up on him early, when you are doing just that for Kyrou. Kyrou was much better than Thomas in the playoffs, and has been more noticeable than him this season although the statistics don't quite reflect that.

I would say we're just going around in circles now as we have our own set of opinions when it comes to Kyrou and Thomas, but I think we both agree that we'd like to see both of them get out of their funk soon.