Is it time for a rebuild ?

Stupendous Yappi

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Aug 23, 2018
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I still don’t understand why Army built such a soft team with Berube as the coach.




Should get a 2nd for Barbs too. And maybe a 3rd for Mikkola
For years the Blues were trying to get quicker, including and especially in puck transition. You can’t pursue that AND prioritize physical toughness. One objective will come at the expense of the other.

This defensive group is supposed to be good at moving the puck.
 

TurgPavs

Registered User
Jan 7, 2019
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I honestly don't understand how Thomas can be excused while Kyrou is constantly vilified, and Thomas is one of my favorite Blues. I can honestly say I haven't noticed Thomas in the majority of the games I've watched this season and he seems content to be a passenger over a leader.

These attacks on Kyrou's attitude are ridiculous to me. If Kyrou was going through this stretch of play in the middle of the season when the Blues are playing well, no one bats an eye. I see a player who's trying to be a difference maker and is dealing with the pressure of being a more prominent cog within the team. Is he lackadaisical on defense at times? No doubt about that, but the same can be said for many star forwards.

It's easy to hate on Kyrou right now, but he's at least been noticeable and generated many scoring chances. I can't say the same for any other forward right now outside of Schenn.
Thoms has clearly worked hard in the off season to improve his FO numbers and is outscoring Kyrou at this point.
The Blues have allowed 29 even strength goals this season, Kyrou has been on the ice for 21 of those goals against.
 

Linkens Mastery

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Jan 15, 2014
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Thoms has clearly worked hard in the off season to improve his FO numbers and is outscoring Kyrou at this point.
The Blues have allowed 29 even strength goals this season, Kyrou has been on the ice for 21 of those goals against.
And Thomas has been on Ice for 15. Both have been bad defensively.
 
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Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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Thoms has clearly worked hard in the off season to improve his FO numbers and is outscoring Kyrou at this point.
The Blues have allowed 29 even strength goals this season, Kyrou has been on the ice for 21 of those goals against.

Its actually 36 Even strength goals the Blues have allowed, and 29 5v5 goals. Kyrou has been on ice for 21 ES goals and 17 5v5 goals. It is borderline dishonest to present the ES numbers for Kyrou in comparison to the 5v5 numbers for the team. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was a mistake.

The 4 goal difference for Kyrou could be empty netters as an empty net is ES, but not 5v5. Kyrou also has the team worst save% while on ice. That could be partially his fault, as he leads the team in 5v5 HDCA. But his HDCF% is better than Thomas as he is producing more 5v5 High danger chances. Yet his PDO is a much worse .874 vs .940. 87.4% is a bad on ice Save percentage, much less a PDO.

Can you think of any of those 17 GA for Kyrou where he was the proximate cause? Almost every goal this season has been primarily on the defense. Kyrou hasn't been good defensively, but a lot of his issues are bad luck and bad D compounded by him not going above and beyond. And he is absolutely snakebitten with scoring chances, which is neither here nor there with his defense but is probably frustrating the hell out of him.
 

TruBlu

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Feb 7, 2016
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For years the Blues were trying to get quicker, including and especially in puck transition. You can’t pursue that AND prioritize physical toughness. One objective will come at the expense of the other.

This defensive group is supposed to be good at moving the puck.
I never have really bought in to the "build the team to be fast" mindset. We were nowhere near having that kind of lineup when we went on the cup run, and quite easily handled several teams that were. The only thing that really matters is that there's a vision for the kind of team you want to be and then work to make the team exactly that. Of course, that only works if the guys you assemble have chemistry and there are no extreme weak links in the total package. I think the current team lacks both.
 

Robb_K

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Apr 26, 2007
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I can see where you're coming from, and I'll also mention that I respect you a ton as a poster Robb. You've been on this board longer than I have and your insight is always very thoughtful.

I do still disagree that Kyrou hasn't shown progression. You don't go from 35 points to 75 points without developing your game in some areas, and in addition he scored 7 goals in 12 playoff games. I watched all his goals from last season and he scored on a decent chunk of breakaways or just alone in front of the net. To me, he's going through a cold spell where nothing he's putting toward net seems to go in. He went through something similar last year where he went 11 games without a goal. It's the nature of being a streaky scorer.

I think it's also unfair to say that Thomas showed a lot of improvement last season and wouldn't want to give up on him early, when you are doing just that for Kyrou. Kyrou was much better than Thomas in the playoffs, and has been more noticeable than him this season although the statistics don't quite reflect that.

I would say we're just going around in circles now as we have our own set of opinions when it comes to Kyrou and Thomas, but I think we both agree that we'd like to see both of them get out of their funk soon.
Oberyn,
Your points are very well taken. I agree that I wouldn't want to get rid of either player too early. And that the team's current funk, CAP/contract problems with aging players, and lack of high-level prospects, all leading seemingly to need for a major re-tooling, has led me to panic about the team's future, and start thinking about how they can start moving in the right direction, leading to looking to trade at least one of their assets seen as a valuable building piece to get back a potentially MORE valuable long-term building piece.

You have a good point in that I MAY be misjudging the differences between the levels of Kyrou's and Thomas' improvements over the past 3 years, and my guessing that Kyrou is much, much less of a "team player" than Thomas, because of my "perceived" idea that Kyrou hasn't put enough extra work into improving his game as he could IF he really wanted to become a top-level player. The idea I have is instinctual guessing, rather than from concrete knowledge of facts. And so, it may be totally wrong. I admit that your points that Kyrou, like Thomas had a breakout season last year, at roughly the same level as Thomas in scoring, and both adding the bulk, strength and knowledge of use of body leverage providing the ability to stand up to the physical pounding of The NHL game, and be able to perform consistently well at that level. And I also admit that your point that Kyrou performed much better offensively during the playoffs last season than Thomas, provides some proof that their improvement levels over the past 3 seasons could easily be a lot closer than I assume.

My instinct that Kyrou is not very determined to improve his game enough to become one of The NHL's top players may well be wrong. It comes from my having watched hockey players for over 70 years, and seeing naturally gifted athletes take two different paths in developing their careers: (1) working hard all the time, to improve their skills and overall game, and (2) coasting, living off their natural talent, but not putting much extra work in to take full advantage of their opportunities to untapped the potential of that natural talent to become the best player they could possibly be. I saw the difference between players like Rocket Richard, Jean Beliveau, Andy Bathgate, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Al MacInnis, and other players of their times, who had a lot of natural talent, but coasted , living on that, which was enough to make them superstars on The Bantam, Midget, and Juniors levels, but needed a LOT of regular extra work on specific skills, to make them generational superstars, or even just normal stars (best couple players on each team). Al MacInnis became a very valuable offensive defence man by practising one-timers against his barn for several of his development years to develop his exceptional booming 100+ MPH accurate shot. The generational smooth stickhandling, high-scoring, finishers with great moves developed those skills by spending hundreds and hundreds of hours practising finishing moves. I, myself, was not very naturally gifted physically. So, I had to work very hard for hundreds of hours developing my skills, just to be on the lower end of average as a player. Luckily, we had a backyard rink, which was available every day for practising and playing in games for 4.5 to 5 months a year where I lived.

I understand that NHLers don't have a lot of extra time during their season. But we hear stories all the time about the great stars like Ovechkin, and those I mentioned above, coming to their team's practice early (first player there), and leaving late (last by far), practising their skills. The players who reach the top levels at their position are usually those that have the combination of being the most naturally-gifted AND who also work the hardest on their games skills and fundamentals. While they are young, the work on shoring up the holes in their overall game to help their own marketing value to make the best living they can for themselves and their families, but also to help their team win.

My view on this is simply that regardless of Kyrou's improvement in actual scoring during his 3 NHL seasons, which has been quite good, he hasn't improved much, at all in the % of goals he scores on breakaways, or when he is all alone in front of the net (both of which opportunities he gets more often than almost all of his teammates). Often in those situations, he loses control of the puck, seemingly because he is undecided and rushes his shot, or delays his shot too long. He doesn't seem clear on what moves (if any) he plans to try. Those problems can be improved by being in that situation a lot more times than he is now, by practising much more on his moves and shooting off them in extra early or late practices with Greiss (who doesn't get enough work currently), or in special sessions with a goalie coach. My contention is, IF he were really dedicated, he would do that, And to me, THAT, along with his seemingly meagre improvement in his defensive efforts (at least in my view), gives me the feeling that he doesn't care very much to be the best player he can be (for hi career and his teammates). He seems to not have the hunger. That quality separates the very good players from the great ones. I could be totally wrong about my instincts here, and so, I don't want The Blues to trade him away in a panic over the team's current doldrums and bleak-looking transition out of their last SC contending window into a re-tooling. I'll just have to wait and see what happens for the next several weeks. But, I'm convinced there is no way The Blues can win The Stanley Cup this season, and they probably should trade both Tarasenko and O'Reilly, and maybe Krug as well, before the deadline, and get the most young player assets they can.
 
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Oberyn

Prince of Dorne
Mar 27, 2011
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Oberyn,
Your points are very well taken. I agree that I wouldn't want to get rid of either player too early. And that the team's current funk, CAP/contract problems with aging players, and lack of high-level prospects, all leading seemingly to need for a major re-tooling, has led me to panic about the team's future, and start thinking about how they can start moving in the right direction, leading to looking to trade at least one of their assets seen as a valuable building piece to get back a potentially MORE valuable long-term building piece.

You have a good point in that I MAY be misjudging the differences between the levels of Kyrou's and Thomas' improvements over the past 3 years, and my guessing that Kyrou is much, much less of a "team player" than Thomas, because of my "perceived" idea that Kyrou hasn't put enough extra work into improving his game as he could IF he really wanted to become a top-level player. The idea I have is instinctual guessing, rather than from concrete knowledge of facts. And so, it may be totally wrong. I admit that your points that Kyrou, like Thomas had a breakout season last year, at roughly the same level as Thomas in scoring, and both adding the bulk, strength and knowledge of use of body leverage providing the ability to stand up to the physical pounding of The NHL game, and be able to perform consistently well at that level. And I also admit that your point that Kyrou performed much better offensively during the playoffs last season than Thomas, provides some proof that their improvement levels over the past 3 seasons could easily be a lot closer than I assume.

My instinct that Kyrou is not very determined to improve his game enough to become one of The NHL's top players may well be wrong. It comes from my having watched hockey players for over 70 years, and seeing naturally gifted athletes take two different paths in developing their careers: (1) working hard all the time, to improve their skills and overall game, and (2) coasting, living off their natural talent, but not putting much extra work in to take full advantage of their opportunities to untapped the potential of that natural talent to become the best player they could possibly be. I saw the difference between players like Rocket Richard, Jean Beliveau, Andy Bathgate, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Al MacInnis, and other players of their times, who had a lot of natural talent, but coasted , living on that, which was enough to make them superstars on The Bantam, Midget, and Juniors levels, but needed a LOT of regular extra work on specific skills, to make them generational superstars, or even just normal stars (best couple players on each team). Al MacInnis became a very valuable offensive defence man by practising one-timers against his barn for several of his development years to develop his exceptional booming 100+ MPH accurate shot. The generational smooth stickhandling, high-scoring, finishers with great moves developed those skills by spending hundreds and hundreds of hours practising finishing moves. I, myself, was not very naturally gifted physically. So, I had to work very hard for hundreds of hours developing my skills, just to be on the lower end of average as a player. Luckily, we had a backyard rink, which was available every day for practising and playing in games for 4.5 to 5 months a year where I lived.

I understand that NHLers don't have a lot of extra time during their season. But we hear stories all the time about the great stars like Ovechkin, and those I mentioned above, coming to their team's practice early (first player there), and leaving late (last by far), practising their skills. The players who reach the top levels at their position are usually those that have the combination of being the most naturally-gifted AND who also work the hardest on their games skills and fundamentals. While they are young, the work on shoring up the holes in their overall game to help their own marketing value to make the best living they can for themselves and their families, but also to help their team win.

My view on this is simply that regardless of Kyrou's improvement in actual scoring during his 3 NHL seasons, which has been quite good, he hasn't improved much, at all in the % of goals he scores on breakaways, or when he is all alone in front of the net (both of which opportunities he gets more often than almost all of his teammates). Often in those situations, he loses control of the puck, seemingly because he is undecided and rushes his shot, or delays his shot too long. He doesn't seem clear on what moves (if any) he plans to try. Those problems can be improved by being in that situation a lot more times than he is now, by practising much more on his moves and shooting off them in extra early or late practices with Greiss (who doesn't get enough work currently), or in special sessions with a goalie coach. My contention is, IF he were really dedicated, he would do that, And to me, THAT, along with his seemingly meagre improvement in his defensive efforts (at least in my view), gives me the feeling that he doesn't care very much to be the best player he can be (for hi career and his teammates). He seems to not have the hunger. That quality separates the very good players from the great ones. I could be totally wrong about my instincts here, and so, I don't want The Blues to trade him away in a panic over the team's current doldrums and bleak-looking transition out of their last SC contending window into a re-tooling. I'll just have to wait and see what happens for the next several weeks. But, I'm convinced there is no way The Blues can win The Stanley Cup this season, and they probably should trade both Tarasenko and O'Reilly, and maybe Krug as well, before the deadline, and get the most young player assets they can.
You have many years of hockey watching experience over me and I can respect where you are coming from with your posts. I can see why you believe Kyrou hasn't shown much progression and perhaps question his dedication to improve himself. You also make some great points in regards to how top players reach their heights and the work that's needed to get there. My only contention to that is neither of us truly have an inside glimpse of what Kyrou's practice regiment looks like. You could certainly be correct in that Kyrou isn't putting in that extra effort that other star players in his place would have, but a lot of that is built on instinct and opinion.

I have no problem with admitting that the way in which we view Kyrou is different, but that doesn't mean either of us are wrong. At the end of the day we're just two spectators, and the onus is on Kyrou to change our views (or not). It's clear that Kyrou has the ability to be a star player in this league and it's up to him to prove that this current stretch of play is not the norm for him.
 

PJJJP

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Dec 2, 2021
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2023 is the draft for forwards and 2024 is heavy on D prospects. I don't what Army is going to do but if it's a rebuild then we could be in a good position to draft a good forward and a good Defensemen in the next 2 draft
 

Robb_K

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Apr 26, 2007
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You have many years of hockey watching experience over me and I can respect where you are coming from with your posts. I can see why you believe Kyrou hasn't shown much progression and perhaps question his dedication to improve himself. You also make some great points in regards to how top players reach their heights and the work that's needed to get there. My only contention to that is neither of us truly have an inside glimpse of what Kyrou's practice regiment looks like. You could certainly be correct in that Kyrou isn't putting in that extra effort that other star players in his place would have, but a lot of that is built on instinct and opinion.

I have no problem with admitting that the way in which we view Kyrou is different, but that doesn't mean either of us are wrong. At the end of the day we're just two spectators, and the onus is on Kyrou to change our views (or not). It's clear that Kyrou has the ability to be a star player in this league and it's up to him to prove that this current stretch of play is not the norm for him.
Well stated, good points. Let's just hope the whole roster starts playing coherently as a team soon, and both Kyrou and Thomas stop pressing, relax, and start having fun at playing hockey again, anthem team starts winning, so Army doesn't feel forced to do something soon, that might not be best for The Blues.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Oct 24, 2006
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Well stated, good points. Let's just hope the whole roster starts playing coherently as a team soon, and both Kyrou and Thomas stop pressing, relax, and start having fun at playing hockey again, anthem team starts winning, so Army doesn't feel forced to do something soon, that might not be best for The Blues.
Alexandrov is helping to calm things down.
 

Reality Czech

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Apr 17, 2017
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I can see where you're coming from, and I'll also mention that I respect you a ton as a poster Robb. You've been on this board longer than I have and your insight is always very thoughtful.

I do still disagree that Kyrou hasn't shown progression. You don't go from 35 points to 75 points without developing your game in some areas, and in addition he scored 7 goals in 12 playoff games. I watched all his goals from last season and he scored on a decent chunk of breakaways or just alone in front of the net. To me, he's going through a cold spell where nothing he's putting toward net seems to go in. He went through something similar last year where he went 11 games without a goal. It's the nature of being a streaky scorer.

I think it's also unfair to say that Thomas showed a lot of improvement last season and wouldn't want to give up on him early, when you are doing just that for Kyrou. Kyrou was much better than Thomas in the playoffs, and has been more noticeable than him this season although the statistics don't quite reflect that.

I would say we're just going around in circles now as we have our own set of opinions when it comes to Kyrou and Thomas, but I think we both agree that we'd like to see both of them get out of their funk soon.

Well put. I have been critical of Kyrou at times, but I do see some improvement in his overall game. He still has a long way to go, but I have seen him getting back on defense and being engaged at times this season. His main problem is doing it consistently and recognizing when he needs to make a smart, simple play and when he can try to get creative. In my mind, his decision making and untimely turnovers are the biggest issues right now.

For all the bashing of Kyrou's two-way game, wasn't Tarasenko in a similar spot for a few years? He was a defensive liability for the first few years of his career until he became more of a solid all-around hockey player. Like Kyrou last year, I remember Tarasenko getting limited ice time despite being our most dangerous offensive player until coaches trusted him more. Kyrou still has a lot of room for improvement, but I also feel like fans need to be more patient in his development. It won't happen overnight.
 

Stealth JD

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We didn't look great against an equally bad SJ team.

Blow it up.
They were fighting for their lives against a terrible Sharks team. Krug's goal was a terrible one to give up for the Sharks goalie. Glad they ended the miserable string of losses, but they were fortunate to get the win. They certainly didn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in great play to come, but maybe the tension is broken and the pressure is off and they can get back to having fun.
 
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Frenzy31

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May 21, 2003
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There are no easy games in this league. You are no going to dominate teams for 60 minutes. There is a ebb and flow to all games. The issue to me is our 2nd period. Last year it was a strength, this year it is a weakness.

And while you mention Krug goal, what about San Jose’s first off of Faulk. I find it intersting that we have had 8 goals against that have bounced or hit our dmen And wind up in the net.

talk about bad puck luck.
 
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Thallis

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Jan 23, 2010
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There are no easy games in this league. You are no going to dominate teams for 60 minutes. There is a ebb and flow to all games. The issue to me is our 2nd period. Last year it was a strength, this year it is a weakness.

And while you mention Krug goal, what about San Jose’s first off of Faulk. I find it intersting that we have had 8 goals against that have bounced or hit our dmen And wind up in the net.

talk about bad puck luck.

We've had more than usual, but that number sticks out to me as a little suspect. Were they counting deflections?
 

ChicagoBlues

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We've had more than usual, but that number sticks out to me as a little suspect. Were they counting deflections?
At least twice Kelly and Rivers mentioned it and maybe Alexa and Bernie as well.

Pucks bouncing in the net off of Blues defensemen, one way or another eight times.

That's, like, a lot n stuff.
 

Stealth JD

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This road-trip will be a good measuring-stick of their competitiveness. If they suffer multi-goal losses to Vegas and Colorado and play Chicago tight, the evidence of them being a lousy team begins to mount. If they can get 4 points or more from these 3 games; maybe hope for a turn-around is on the horizon.
 

Mike Liut

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Our next 10 to finish out November

@ LV - L
@ Col - L
@ Chi - W
Wash - L
Anaheim - W
Anaheim - L
@ Buff - L
@ TB - L
@ Fla - L
Dal - L

6- 16 heading into a tough December
 

Majorityof1

Registered User
Mar 6, 2014
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Central Florida
There are no easy games in this league. You are no going to dominate teams for 60 minutes. There is a ebb and flow to all games. The issue to me is our 2nd period. Last year it was a strength, this year it is a weakness.

And while you mention Krug goal, what about San Jose’s first off of Faulk. I find it intersting that we have had 8 goals against that have bounced or hit our dmen And wind up in the net.

talk about bad puck luck.

"you are not going to dominate teams for 60 minutes" - Tell that to the several teams who have dominated us :laugh:....:confused:......:cry:

As for the goals off our D, that could be bad luck. Or it could be our D suck and made bad plays/bad positioning.
The Faulk goal specifically wasn't bad luck, it was f***ing dumb of Faulk to try to catch up a spinning puck with an overhand catch while having to lean way foward and having someone on his back while pointing directly at the net. That goal was 0% bad luck, 0% sharks good play, and 100% Faulk being dumb. Which is fine.. Every NHL player will make bone head plays now and again. But let's call a spade a spade and a dumb play a dumb play.
 

Sgt Schultz

Registered User
Jun 30, 2019
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Santa Fe, NM
Those calling to blow the whole thing up and rebuild must feel pretty foolish right now, given our winning streak of one in a row.

I feel better than I would have had we lost to the Sharks (in which case I might have given up all hope). But we didn't exactly look like the 1978 Canadiens in the process.
 

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