Is it time for a Canadian only professional hockey league?

[Lady Stanley]

Yes google gave me something about 7 years, still the current Canadian deal is approximately 43 million American per team/year vs the 25 million per team/year of the ESPN deal.

The argument could be made if there were more teams in Canada there would be bigger Canadian TV deals to be had, or does that argument only work south of the border?

As my husband will tell you, 8 teams means you can bring back the north division.

Inspite of the horrid repetitiveness of no interdivisional play(honestly something I'd argue bothers more established fan bases more), it was a huge success for rogers/bells/rds/tvas.

Every year you'd get 3 rounds of Canadian hockey. I get regular fans would melt if Canadian teams were gifted the 4 playoffs spots + a 3rd round ticket, especially when 5 of 8 are on a rebuild, but the reality is bell/rogers/rds/tvas would offer up a billion dollars over a decade for that.

Maybe an extra $100 million a year would be too much, you want to argue it'd only be $25 million a year in added value but even that you're talking about $250 million over a decade. The narrative Gary has irrational support for the south is misleading. It was all means to an ends to capture the current American tv. Now that this base is covered Gary isn't gonna ruin his reputation with a floundering Canada deal. In addition is seems unlikely ESPN is dying for a first round matchup like they had with the Jets-Knights. It benefits both sides of the border if there are no wild cards. It gives broadcasters some degree of scheduling certainty.



All this talk about supposed growth, the reality is Canada is gonna have a Houston worth of potential new fans over the coming decade. Between the 4.5 million immigrants set to come and the children of immigrants.

Getting QC believe it or not would have massive ramifications for the league television contracts.

Honestly I'm just so tired of this double think.

QC has the arena, we have a team without an nhl caliber arena. 5 years ago everyone argued that you'd need a team without an arena, you have now have that the back tracking is absurd.

The rockets owner hasn't shown a true interest in a Billion dollar fee Kansas etc are barely bigger than QC with no established fan base.

Even if you go in those types of markets you can always wait for a new team with an expansion draft, as the risk of having 5+ years without playoff hockey would be insane in one of those markets. I'd argue Austin with an Arena is the real market that needs to be focused on when getting a new team.

QC can weather a bad team storm better than anywhere else.

List of census metropolitan areas and agglomerations in Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'd also point to the low population growth in both Toronto and QC. These two things are interconnected. Toronto is running out of land that can be developed, a lot of land is not available due to environmental protection laws. The result of this is a mass exodus of people from the area. This is already spilling over to Montreal and Halifax, and QC is the last man standing as an affordable place to live.

Before work from home became the norm QC wasn't viable. But so many young people with the ideal season ticket holder incomes will now be moving to QC to exploit the low cost of living(already has happened in halifax). In addition Trudeau has announced staunch support for unnaturally high immigration rates, this guaranteed QC will likely be growing by 2-3 percent per year.

All the alignment issues are largely mislead. 48 games would be against american teams. 34 left over means Toronto would play Ottawa-habs-QC 6 times and the western teams 4 times each. You throw in the fact that 4 times means you can do doubles. Especially useful if you have people coming into Vancouver for the weekend just to see a game or to of the habs. The ability to do doubles could reduce make travel actually go down for Canadiaan teams.

The narrative QC would split Montreal is unfounded. TVAS only has 1.75 games of montreal hockey a week. You can't make money when the tv isn't on.

Again so many of the things being claims are just unfounded. They're based on outdated stereotypies and are bordering on bigotry. Canada is a country of legal immigrants. We have "the tap is on" policy which means we'll see real opportunities for growth. Even removing QC from the equation, simply making a better TV audience, would be well worth it when you're trying to capture the new fandoms of 5 million immigrants per decade.

Again QC doesn't have to happen, but please don't base your arguments on something drummed up 30 years ago. We're a faster movie country compared to the US, and we're a much more limited market. Immigrants have to go to NHL markets unlike in the US where there's always another NHL free city to move to.(i.e. austin)

It's very likely QC will have a million people in the metro by 2030+, thanks to immigration. Again the argument that Canada doesn't have room to grow is incredibly unfounded. Playoff runs rapidly capture new fans. Again don't use double think, the same rules that apply to the South apply to the North with the stipulation Canada already has a base that doesn't exist in the south.

QC will have great demographics(Trudeau has basically written that into law) and it gives the option of revamping the television contracts.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Terrible idea, like the CFL.

CFL suffers from a branding issue.

It should and was on par with NCAA football, it's our version of NCAA football, just as American NCAA hockey is their version of the CHL.

It is more skilled than NCAA football, yet it is in the same ballpark. And in terms of popularity is way better than a division 2 conference.

Regardless there's a massive vacuum for a league like the KHL.

The NHL is scaled too big for mid sized cities which Canada has in abundance.

Midsized cities like London-Hamiltion-Saskatoon-Victoria-Halifax would be ideal for a league with a cap floor of say 5 million a year, with a designated player rule. It wouldn't be NHL calibre by no means, but a deep pocketed owner could absolutely emulate a Edmonton situation. Hire 2 middle six forwards for say 12 million a year(17 million total) and you'd have a really entertaining game.

You could also make it a Canadians only league, not for nationalistic reasons, but simple logistics. People are more likely to follow a league if they see their junior league team players going to the level above. It's also make the league more appealing to young Canadians who'd see it as a stepping stone between the CHL and NHL.

I'd argue the fastest way to do this is create a "senior-major junior league" where basically players between ages 21-25 go to own their skills and get paid to do so. You could also just brand it the CHL which would sit on top of the current junior hockey that is referred to as the CHL. You could even take big revenue franchises like the London Knights/Quebec Ramparts and just promote them to "senior-major junior". The cfl gets 43 million a year annually from tsn. It's very easy to aim for 120 million a year with a 12 team C league.

You're in the ballpark of 30-40 million a year in player salaries with that type of thing, provided you have a strong owner/market.

That would lead to 30-40 point nhl players being branded as C league superstars.

Going by the Ottawa bids etc Canada is starved for a middle tier hockey league.

Finally a big detail is copy the CFL in playing ahead of the NHL schedule. Have your playoffs done before the NHL playoffs begin. Have a 60 game schedule.

Using london as an example, $65 a game tickets on a 10,000 seater arena is $650,000 a night. that's 19.5 million a year in revenue and that's not factoring in merch. Each tv would have a television footprint of roughly 3 million people each.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Nobody made Dubas sign Tavares, and build a soft team. Nobody made Holland sign Nurse and Campbell to ridiculous deals, and it's only his and Chia's fault that that they haven't been able to surround McDrai with a SC champion roster. Canadian teams' failures have nothing to do with Bettman. Sure they have some disadvantages, but at the end of the day their failures are their own fault.

Your argument is predictably circular.

Canadian GM is bad because they over pay or sign flawed players.

Meanwhile it's absolutely out in the open no one wants to play in a Canadian market. It's not like team owners don't admit to it. It's open conversation in winnipeg. Even the players will openly talk about it.

I don't get the magical thinking that is involved in all of this.

It isn't just UFAs, even drafting is affected by this. Teams like Winnipeg have to avoid players altogether because they don't want to get stuck in a matthews situation. Where a guy refuses to sign long term despite having a mega contract.

It isn't UFAs that kill Canadian teams, it's retaining depth that is virtually impossible. No Canada team ever has a deep roster. It just doesn't happen unless they have a subpar top line/bad goalie etc.

The only solution and it matters, unless you want the Canadian national deal to tank is create a Canadian division IMO. Or just a simple North division if you want to include Buffalo.

The fans aren't stupid, we're finally a full generation of players into the cap era. Canadians are starting to do the math the statistical odds 200 seasons of hockey gets played without a cup win is absurdly low. When the Leafs go on the rebuild, the media will turn on the NHL. Even if people like me are 100% wrong, it doesn't matter it's the narrative that appeals to fans. Who are the ones playing for hockey.

Things were different before people were exposed to the Canadian division, where it was a certainty that local markets would perform. In addition the win of raptors/TFC got Canadians to snap out of the idea that it is automatic Canadian teams can't win.

 

[Lady Stanley]

I'm as nationalist as the next guy, but if you think I want any other Canadian team winning before mine out of some sense of solidarity, you're out of your gourd.

If it ain't the Sens, I couldn't care less if a Canadian team wins it.

Crosby and McDavid would sign with American teams without a moment's hesitation. Crosby has played for an American team for nearly two decades.

A) Your emtional connection to your team is so strong you can't appreciate that some peoples connection their country is stronger(especially when the country actually includes family members friends)

B) Wanting your neighboring team to lose is partially why Canadian divisions etc get talked about. Emotional connections go in both directions. I absolutely despise Calgary which is while I will always watch them lose in the playoffs.

C) It's a market issue, it doesn't matter if my team or another team is losing, if an appearance of a hard limit on wins exists it doesn't matter if it is true. If I got to a car dealership and ask the dealer for a demo car, and he informs me that all demos are only sold on the other side of the country, I'm gonna feel like I'm getting short changed and exploited. I as a Canadian am buying a ticket to the stanley cup, to find out the ticket is defective means I'm getting ripped off. It's not an emotional attachment it's simply a measure of markets success.

D) Believe it or not, Canadians move around a lot. If I'm in Ottawa I'm gonna root for the sens, if I move to Edmonton I'll root for them. I'm always gonna have my home town team, but i'll always befollowing at least one other. That's ignoring me and my husband have family in virtually every NHL market.

E) I get watching hockey all alone in your basement and interacting on social media has appeal. But for the vast majority of people, especially if you're a woman like myself hockey isn't a solo hobby. It's a social event, pretty much a peak social event if we're being honest. If my coworkers/ in laws/parents are rooting for a team, I want to be part of it. You could say I'm a bandwagoning woman who doesn't know my place, but I really don't give a dam about gatekeepery nonsense. Americans have their super bowl, I want the equivalent. If I don't have a family member/friend/coworker who has an attachment for the market I don't care about that team. FYI the league/television broadcasters are in 100% agreement with me not you.

how I want to watch sports

this is what my husband does.

 

[BrockLobster]

How is this bettmans fault??

 

[David Lunch]

in this professional league, the salaries will be lower

so you’re basically saying it will be the AHL (in a best case scenario). Why would any player choose to play for less money than they could make in the NHL? Sorry, but your premise is just not connected to reality.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

A) Your emtional connection to your team is so strong you can't appreciate that some peoples connection their country is stronger(especially when the country actually includes family members friends)

B) Wanting your neighboring team to lose is partially why Canadian divisions etc get talked about. Emotional connections go in both directions. I absolutely despise Calgary which is while I will always watch them lose in the playoffs.

C) It's a market issue, it doesn't matter if my team or another team is losing, if an appearance of a hard limit on wins exists it doesn't matter if it is true. If I got to a car dealership and ask the dealer for a demo car, and he informs me that all demos are only sold on the other side of the country, I'm gonna feel like I'm getting short changed and exploited. I as a Canadian am buying a ticket to the stanley cup, to find out the ticket is defective means I'm getting ripped off. It's not an emotional attachment it's simply a measure of markets success.

D) Believe it or not, Canadians move around a lot. If I'm in Ottawa I'm gonna root for the sens, if I move to Edmonton I'll root for them. I'm always gonna have my home town team, but i'll always befollowing at least one other. That's ignoring me and my husband have family in virtually every NHL market.

E) I get watching hockey all alone in your basement and interacting on social media has appeal. But for the vast majority of people, especially if you're a woman like myself hockey isn't a solo hobby. It's a social event, pretty much a peak social event if we're being honest. If my coworkers/ in laws/parents are rooting for a team, I want to be part of it. You could say I'm a bandwagoning woman who doesn't know my place, but I really don't give a dam about gatekeepery nonsense. Americans have their super bowl, I want the equivalent. If I don't have a family member/friend/coworker who has an attachment for the market I don't care about that team. FYI the league/television broadcasters are in 100% agreement with me not you.

how I want to watch sports

this is what my husband does.

That's a whole lot of words in response to my personal position that I don't particularly care if other Canadian teams win. Not even sure what in my post evoked that response, but ok.

 

[rogking65]

i say this because i feel with bettman calling the shots, i don't see canadian nhl teams have a chance to win..

i believe its time for canadians to create their own professional hockey league just like the CFL...

in this professional league, the salaries will be lower and the ticket prices will be affordable for families...

i say to canadians let the NHL go with its pro american business mindset...and embrace a new league that will cater to hockey crazed canadians..

I cannot believe there are 69 likes to this stupid idea. What kind of talent level do you actually think will be in this league? The players will follow the money and all the best players will play in the U.S. Look at NFL salaries vs CFL. The league would end up being composed of players outside the top 800 or 900 in the world

 

[CN8]

I still genuinely can't believe that there are actually Canadians who get so upset about no Canadian teams winning the Cup that they make an issue out of it every single year.

As with most things , the wacky minority voice their concerns

That's a whole lot of words in response to my personal position that I don't particularly care if other Canadian teams win. Not even sure what in my post evoked that response, but ok.

I’d be with you if I’m honest. I’d much rather have Florida win than a rival Canadian team

 

[Lady Stanley]

I cannot believe there are 69 likes to this stupid idea. What kind of talent level do you actually think will be in this league? The players will follow the money and all the best players will play in the U.S. Look at NFL salaries vs CFL. The league would end up being composed of players outside the top 800 or 900 in the world

The better example would be looking at MLS compared to the English Premier League. Your argument is just silly and isn't based on a comparable situation.

CFL talent is way above college football despite "very low salaries" so even that isn't a great example. I've never seen a CFL fan complain about the talent, it's more the opposite. People just super annoyed people who don't watch college football think it's totally legit and the CFL is not.

As I said a C league could probably afford 2-3 middle six players, you'd have a steep drop off in talent after that, but it's just silly to think they'd be playing at a junior or even AHL level.

$40 million a year in revenue I'd argue is achievable in a market like London or Halifax. Imagine if Kadri was playing in London(before his break out season priced him out).

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Nationalism is lame.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

If a Canadian pre league started, it would be interesting to see what would happen if these hypothetical individuals who were in charge of this league demanded that the Stanley Cup be returned to Canada so that it would be awarded to the annual champion under threat of legal action. I'm not sure if the NHL has a case to keep the cup as their official championship.

 

[SaltNPeca]

No.

BUT I do believe the NHL doesn't hold the right to award the Stanley Cup ad infinitum.
In some futuristic utopia where humans can travel faster and more efficiently than now I'd love to see more top flight leagues globally with some crossover, be that like Champions League, or an international Stanley Cup Playoffs.

NHL has always been a US/Canada League, and should continue that way. 3 Canadian-based teams punched their ticket this year and the opportunity is there for a Canadian team to win. Keep supporting your team(s), it's a hard trophy to win, and remember the lowest lows will only make those highs that much better!

 

[Dread Clawz]

Your argument is predictably circular.

Canadian GM is bad because they over pay or sign flawed players.

Meanwhile it's absolutely out in the open no one wants to play in a Canadian market. It's not like team owners don't admit to it. It's open conversation in winnipeg. Even the players will openly talk about it.

I don't get the magical thinking that is involved in all of this.

It isn't just UFAs, even drafting is affected by this. Teams like Winnipeg have to avoid players altogether because they don't want to get stuck in a matthews situation. Where a guy refuses to sign long term despite having a mega contract.

It isn't UFAs that kill Canadian teams, it's retaining depth that is virtually impossible. No Canada team ever has a deep roster. It just doesn't happen unless they have a subpar top line/bad goalie etc.

The only solution and it matters, unless you want the Canadian national deal to tank is create a Canadian division IMO. Or just a simple North division if you want to include Buffalo.

The fans aren't stupid, we're finally a full generation of players into the cap era. Canadians are starting to do the math the statistical odds 200 seasons of hockey gets played without a cup win is absurdly low. When the Leafs go on the rebuild, the media will turn on the NHL. Even if people like me are 100% wrong, it doesn't matter it's the narrative that appeals to fans. Who are the ones playing for hockey.

Things were different before people were exposed to the Canadian division, where it was a certainty that local markets would perform. In addition the win of raptors/TFC got Canadians to snap out of the idea that it is automatic Canadian teams can't win.

This is a bunch of nonsense. Carolina consistently operates in the top handful of teams with the most cap space. They are consistently better than the Leafs. The Kraken have had a lot of cap space in their 2 years, they were more successful than the Leafs this year. Canadian teams don't have to sign flawed overpaid players. Most of them have financial advantages that other teams don't have, and can sink tons of money into scouting, player development etc. specifically so they can build a strong homegrown pipeline and don't have to go and throw stupid contracts at mediocre players. Tavares, Campbell, Nurse, Myers, Anderson, Savard etc. are examples of needless self-inflicted mistakes that Canadian markets GMs have foolishly made that have basically handcuffed their teams from improving. Vancouver already got rid of a bunch and they still have some that are bogging them down. Canadian teams have nobody to blame but themselves. They have all been mismanaged for years.
I'm not anti-Leaf here, but them turning on the NHL isn't a threat. Everybody already makes fun of the Leafs, it's like the cool thing apparently. Even Gretzky trolls them on TNT. Nobody cares.

Even if people like you are wrong? Well, you're wrong. Everyone can see that Dubas signing Tavares to that megadeal was completely needless and foolish, and they even said that at the time. The Raptors are an example of a team that is actually properly managed, and yet the great and powerful Oz in Toronto nearly didn't extend the GM's contract, right after he had delivered a championship lol.

 

[The Panther]

The best option that's somewhat realistic right now, I think, is to have the all-Canadian-team division (as in the Covid season).

I personally find Canadian clubs vs. Canadian clubs much more interesting than otherwise.

This system would also mean at least one Canadian franchise would make the final four, which would increase viewership of the playoffs.

 

[tucker3434]

The best option that's somewhat realistic right now, I think, is to have the all-Canadian-team division (as in the Covid season).

I personally find Canadian clubs vs. Canadian clubs much more interesting than otherwise.

This system would also mean at least one Canadian franchise would make the final four, which would increase viewership of the playoffs.

The eastern teams aren’t giving up their travel schedule so they can play more often 3 time zones away.

 

[JMCx4]

I cannot believe there are 69 likes to this stupid idea. What kind of talent level do you actually think will be in this league? The players will follow the money and all the best players will play in the U.S. Look at NFL salaries vs CFL. The league would end up being composed of players outside the top 800 or 900 in the world

That's sixty-nine hockey fans for the "Canadian Ice Hockey League" to recruit as season ticket holders. Gotta start somewhere.

 

[Lady Stanley]

The eastern teams aren’t giving up their travel schedule so they can play more often 3 time zones away.

A) You can schedule it so travel goes down.

Every game in Vancouver could be made a back to back. It's great in both direction. For a Sens fan living in Victoria they could get 2 games with only 1 trip to Vancouver. This works in Canada because there's people from Ottawa all over BC and vice versa.

So instead of an extra trip to Miami you get one less trip to Miami and your trips to the pacific would stay the same.

B) You're not crossing a border for these games, which reduces travel.

C) You're not flying all the way south for a game. It's roughly the same distance West as it is South to Miami.

It's only 1 team and you'd only play them 4 times a year, i.e. you'd only make one trip a year.

That's sixty-nine hockey fans for the "Canadian Ice Hockey League" to recruit as season ticket holders. Gotta start somewhere.

I suggest you go look up the CHL before you continue to preach borderline bigotry. London-Halifax/Saskatoon/Kitchener/QC/Hamilton/Victoria are all starved for a pro league.

I really don't get why you can't empathize with that, I mean I seriously don't get it. I don't deny you don't care, has anyone suggested you secretly care? This isn't about you believe it or not, it's about the people who care about such things.

 

[Lady Stanley]

The best option that's somewhat realistic right now, I think, is to have the all-Canadian-team division (as in the Covid season).

I personally find Canadian clubs vs. Canadian clubs much more interesting than otherwise.

This system would also mean at least one Canadian franchise would make the final four, which would increase viewership of the playoffs.

Here's the beauty of it, if you don't care it doesn't matter, these guys not interested aren't gonna stop watching because there's too many games against the Leafs.

On the flip side there's an entire group of people who will exactly watch because of what you mentioned above.

The television broadcasters etc know this.

 

[tucker3434]

A) You can schedule it so travel goes down.

Every game in Vancouver could be made a back to back. It's great in both direction. For a Sens fan living in Victoria they could get 2 games with only 1 trip to Vancouver. This works in Canada because there's people from Ottawa all over BC and vice versa.

So instead of an extra trip to Miami you get one less trip to Miami and your trips to the pacific would stay the same.

B) You're not crossing a border for these games, which reduces travel.

C) You're not flying all the way south for a game. It's roughly the same distance West as it is South to Miami.

It's only 1 team and you'd only play them 4 times a year, i.e. you'd only make one trip a year.


I suggest you go look up the CHL before you continue to preach borderline bigotry. London-Halifax/Saskatoon/Kitchener/QC/Hamilton/Victoria are all starved for a pro league.

I really don't get why you can't empathize with that, I mean I seriously don't get it. I don't deny you don't care, has anyone suggested you secretly care? This isn't about you believe it or not, it's about the people who care about such things.

It’s not just distance but time zone. How often should Ottawa have a 10PM puck drop? Or Vancouver at 4PM? Best to minimize that stuff. Causes more issues than it resolves.

 

[JMCx4]

... I suggest you go look up the CHL before you continue to preach borderline bigotry. London-Halifax/Saskatoon/Kitchener/QC/Hamilton/Victoria are all starved for a pro league.

I'm well aware of Canadian major junior hockey, and there's no bigotry about it. My CiHL comment stands for a hopeful outcome & steady work for Ticket Sales Dept. staff. You need some rest, those multiple time zones are getting to you.

 

[Lady Stanley]

It’s not just distance but time zone. How often should Ottawa have a 10PM puck drop? Or Vancouver at 4PM? Best to minimize that stuff. Causes more issues than it resolves.

You'd have the Canadian equivalent of NFL sundays.

Afternoon games on Saturday's HNIC as a routine thing.

It doesn't work when it's a Canadian team against an American team but it's fine when it's a Canadian Canadian matchup, because of the massive volume of transplants.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

The better example would be looking at MLS compared to the English Premier League. Your argument is just silly and isn't based on a comparable situation.

CFL talent is way above college football despite "very low salaries" so even that isn't a great example. I've never seen a CFL fan complain about the talent, it's more the opposite. People just super annoyed people who don't watch college football think it's totally legit and the CFL is not.

As I said a C league could probably afford 2-3 middle six players, you'd have a steep drop off in talent after that, but it's just silly to think they'd be playing at a junior or even AHL level.

$40 million a year in revenue I'd argue is achievable in a market like London or Halifax. Imagine if Kadri was playing in London(before his break out season priced him out).

Do you think junior is a higher level than the AHL?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The way to start a pro league isn't to talk about it on a forum, it's to gather a dozen super rich guys who want it and then start making plans. This has happened before of course. It didn't really succeed, but the way they got the foot in the door even was by paying big name guys more than the NHL was willing to pay. That's the only way you're going to do it.

Does anyone think such a league would have any prayer of succeeding as long as the Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens (i.e. the teams that have like 75% of Canadian fan support between them) are in the NHL? And why would those teams leave the NHL? They may not be winning the Stanley Cup but everyone involved is making a lot of money. And that's what ultimately matters. It's the entertainment industry, not the space race.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

i say this because i feel with bettman calling the shots, i don't see canadian nhl teams have a chance to win..

i believe its time for canadians to create their own professional hockey league just like the CFL...

in this professional league, the salaries will be lower and the ticket prices will be affordable for families...

i say to canadians let the NHL go with its pro american business mindset...and embrace a new league that will cater to hockey crazed canadians..

Not opposed to this. I've always thought a fanbase should be rewarded for extreme loyalty. Instead, the salary cap and revenue sharing do the exact opposite. I.e., the big markets are literally punished for having loyal fans and packed buildings. It's hard to take sometimes as a loyal fan. And I couldn't give a rat's ass about the NHL BTW, I'm a Leafs fan before I'm an NHL fan. I'd follow them wherever they took their product and if a few Canadian teams actually did this, it would instantly legitimize whatever this new league might be.