Is Bedard more McDavid or Drai/Matthews/Mackinnon level talent?

[blundluntman]

Sorry I was being sarcastic after responding to Pavel to much. I know exactly what you did. For me as far as a just statistical point Bedard probably had the most dominant season this century in the CHL/WJC-20. I guess we will see how it translates to the NHL, but the numbers are crazy, especially if you start breaking down goals scored.

Ahh I gotcha lol. Yeah I think he had the most dominant and impressive draft year season this century too. I have a feeling he'll be able to translate but time will tell

 

[Happyhary9]

Ahh I gotcha lol. Yeah I think he had the most dominant and impressive draft year season this century too. I have a feeling he'll be able to translate but time will tell

I think he will. He just has "it". No numbers really explain it, despite unreal numbers. As USA fan I was holding my breath every time he was on the ice WJC-20. It was crazy, I was like what the hell, you are not supposed to do that. Just never seen a WJC-20 performance like that, at times it just seemed like Canada was just sitting around saying well let Bedard do it.
I love greatness in sports and enjoy it when I see it. I always say if you see greatness in a sport remember it whether it is your team/player you will remember it for a life time.

 

[Happyhary9]

I think Bedard has McDavid level talent but lacks the physical gifts to be as good as him. Drai and Mack may be slightly less talented than Bedard but they have obvious physical advantages over him. My guess is Bedard will be in the Drai or Mack level in the Nhl.

I see some of that. You can't ever teach McDaniel speed. But at times I see Bedard make shots at different angles then I never see. Just unreal his strength with his hands at all angles to place a shot were you need.

I really like that both McDaniel and Bedard are absolutely dedicated to being the best. Talent gets you so far but you got to work a lot as well.

As I side note. I always say Mario Lemuix was the best hockey player I have ever seen from a talent point. That guy smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day (did so my self) beet cancer the actually worried about heath and came back with a bad back and still scored a higher ppg then everyone. Just always wonder how good he would of been if he actually to health/training seriously when he was younger.

 

[Jets4Life]

Bedard is the best prospect since Crosby.

Why do you think he is going to be better than McDavid?

 

[Albatros]

Why do you think he is going to be better than McDavid?

I don't know what kind of an NHL career he's going to have, if any, but his junior career was better than McDavid's so I think it's fair to call him the better prospect.

 

[Happyhary9]

Why do you think he is going to be better than McDavid?

I would say best prospect is Bedard.McDavid was generational, but lacked some scoring as a goal scorer. McDavid has that speed and I think has exceeded some expectations. I think Bedard Bedard is better at 17/18 but it it is always about the next level. Both have just crazy skill sets. McDavid can skate like I have never seen maybe Bobby Orr back on a BW TV. Bedard has a shot I just have never seen at a 17/draft year kid.

But as a prospect Bedard is better then McDavid. But that doesn't mean he will be better in the NHL. Speed just always translates, never thought McDavid would be the goal scorer he is. But he works so hard every thing and does Bedard.

As I say you have generational prospects, but they have to still prove it at the NHL level. I just love Bedard's goal scoring potential, just never seen a shot like his. McDavid is probably the best skater I have seen but there is guys close.

I don't know any way else to explain it it. Every time I watch him I ask how does this happen, the game isn't supposed to be this slow, yet he does it.

I hope he is great. I love watching greatness. Even if it is not my team. You only see it so many times, when you see enjoy it and remember it only happens so often.

 

[Jets4Life]

I hope Bedard turns out to be as good or better than McDavid. Chicago needs a player who can wash away the Kyle Beach scandal.

 

[McRpro]

I don't know what kind of an NHL career he's going to have, if any, but his junior career was better than McDavid's so I think it's fair to call him the better prospect.

Ya, fingers crossed Bedard can actually make the NHL....

 

[Happyhary9]

I hope Bedard turns out to be as good or better than McDavid. Chicago needs a player who can wash away the Kyle Beach scandal.

Ya hope. But that shit happens way to often, just in general. Not to turn this into a political/stuff like that, just takes good men and women to do the right thing. Every country US, England, Europe, Russia, China, every country just in case I forget one.We can shoot everybody else later. There is at least a reason why hockey is international.

 

[ricky0034]

just uh putting this here for no particular reason

1. Dahlin
2. Svechnikov
3. Boqvist
4. Turcotte
5. Kotkaniemi
6. Cozens
7. Dobson
8. Kakko
9. Jack Hughes
10. Byram

 

[daver]

Those 3 players would be even better if they were as big as fast as McDavid.

Not necessarily. The point was Bedard's size, or size in general, is not an inhibitor against success in the NHL, and Bedard was better than Kane was pre-draft so there is no reason to think he will not be better than Kane was in the NHL. That puts him closer to McDavid than it does to the other three players.

 

[Despote]

Not necessarily. The point was Bedard's size, or size in general, is not an inhibitor against success in the NHL, and Bedard was better than Kane was pre-draft so there is no reason to think he will not be better than Kane was in the NHL. That puts him closer to McDavid than it does to the other three players.

There's a massive gap between McDavid and Kane and there's a good argument that all of MacKinnon, Matthews and Draisaitl are better players than Kane. Being better than Patrick Kane does very little here IMO, when talking about comparisons to a top-5 all time player.

 

[daver]

There's a massive gap between McDavid and Kane and there's a good argument that all of MacKinnon, Matthews and Draisaitl are better players than Kane. Being better than Patrick Kane does very little here IMO, when talking about comparisons to a top-5 all time player.

Better offensively? Please make your case. Kane has the best regular season, in terms of dominance vs. his peers, for starters along with a reputation for clutchness in the playoffs.

The point was the gap between Kane and McDavid/Crosby is similar to the gap between Kane in his draft year and Bedard in his draft year. And that Kane met expectations in the NHL based on his CHL season; he didn't lose anything because of his size.

There's a massive gap between McDavid and Kane and there's a good argument that all of MacKinnon, Matthews and Draisaitl are better players than Kane. Being better than Patrick Kane does very little here IMO, when talking about comparisons to a top-5 all time player.

Kane's peak season is closer than you think when you compare their respective dominance over their peers.

 

[Fatass]

How does one lead their team to the Cup? You mention that MacKinnon did it but it was Makar that won the Smythe. Like McDavid, Mac had built a rep for the playoff prior to winning but was reasonably downgraded for not doing it over four rounds/late in individual series. He was very good in their Cup win but not as outworldly as he had been in other years.

For me there are two tiers of the greatest players. Those who led their clubs to Cups and those who didn’t. If Bedard proves to be a great player but doesn’t lead the Hawks to a Cup then he falls into the lower tier. Still great but one step below the others. So, to me, the thread title assumes that greatness is about points and personal awards. To me players who win those awards are all great (and Bedard will likely join that group) but some don’t lead the teams to Cups, so they drop a tier.
Imo these great players place a higher importance on winning Cups to individual awards too. They know it’s the Cup that puts a stamp on their greatness.

 

[daver]

For me there are two tiers of the greatest players. Those who led their clubs to Cups and those who didn’t. If Bedard proves to be a great player but doesn’t lead the Hawks to a Cup then he falls into the lower tier. Still great but one step below the others. So, to me, the thread title assumes that greatness is about points and personal awards. To me players who win those awards are all great (and Bedard will likely join that group) but some don’t lead the teams to Cups, so they drop a tier.
Imo these great players place a higher importance on winning Cups to individual awards too. They know it’s the Cup that puts a stamp on their greatness.

So MacKinnon > McDavid? I.e you would choose MacKinnon over McDavid for a playoff run?

 

[Despote]

Kane's peak season is closer than you think when you compare their respective dominance over their peers.

Uh-huh. Leave it up to daver to find controversy in saying that McDavid is far superior to Patrick Kane.

 

[daver]

Uh-huh. Leave it up to daver to find controversy in saying that McDavid is far superior to Patrick Kane.

OK, Bedard was "far superior" to Kane in the CHL then and there is no reason to think he won't be similarly superior to Kane in the NHL.

There, have a go at that.

 

[Despote]

OK, Bedard was "far superior" to Kane in the CHL then and there is no reason to think he won't be similarly superior to Kane in the NHL.

There, have a go at that.

Kane then becomes a pretty poor example.

McDavid at 26 has five Art Rosses and two runner ups. Kane at 26 after eight seasons had 5th and 9th scoring place, had never scored 90 points in a season and didn't have a single top-5 Hart finish. Patrick Kane had a spike year when he won the Hart/Ross at 27. This is completely incomparable to generational talent that takes the league over as a teenager and never misses a beat.

 

[daver]

There's a massive gap between McDavid and Kane and there's a good argument that all of MacKinnon, Matthews and Draisaitl are better players than Kane. Being better than Patrick Kane does very little here IMO, when talking about comparisons to a top-5 all time player.

Kane's Point finishes - 1, T2, 3, 5. 8

Kane's PPG finishes (min. 40 games) - 1, 3, 4, T4, 6, 10

Hart trophies 1
Lindsay trophies - 1
Conn Smythes - 1

#4 in playoff scoring during his career

So what are the arguments that they are better offensively?

 

[daver]

Kane then becomes a pretty poor example.

McDavid at 26 has five Art Rosses and two runner ups. Kane at 26 after eight seasons had 5th and 9th scoring place, had never scored 90 points in a season and didn't have a single top-5 Hart finish. Patrick Kane had a spike year when he won the Hart/Ross at 27. This is completely incomparable to generational talent that takes the league over as a teenager and never misses a beat.

What does this have to do with Bedard vs. Kane and the potential for Bedard to be as equally successful out of the gate as McDavid was?

To say nothing about the cherrypicking of Kane's career to back up your argument. Kane at age 27 to 30 was the leading scorer in the NHL:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[Despote]

Kane's Point finishes - 1, T2, 3, 5. 8

Kane's PPG finishes (min. 40 games) - 1, 3, 4, T4, 6, 10

Hart trophies 1
Lindsay trophies - 1
Conn Smythes - 1

#4 in playoff scoring during his career

So what are the arguments that they are better offensively?

If you pay attention I only said that argument can be made that they are better, not that they are necessarily better let alone that they are definitely better offensively. Though if you look at the p/gp domination over the field, MacKinnon and Draisaitl through their primes have been slightly superior to Patrick Kane's prime. I think Auston Matthews is a better player too, but I won't derail the thread further.

What does this have to do with Bedard vs. Kane and the potential for Bedard to be as equally successful out of the gate as McDavid was?

To say nothing about the cherrypicking of Kane's career to back up your argument. Kane at age 27 to 30 was the leading scorer in the NHL:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

It's not cherry picking when it's literally the exact time frame that McDavid has been in the league so far. As I said, Kane had one spike year when he won the Art Ross and apart from that, has never finished withing single-digits of the Art Ross aside from the lockout shortened season.

Shouldn't the fact that it took Kane 9 seasons to reach MVP level, only to never reach it again, worry you in regards to Bedard, if you are using Kane's success to argue for the impact Bedard is going to have?

 

[ManofSteel55]

There's brain power then there's hockey IQ. I like Bedard's hockey IQ better.

Pretty bold statement when that IQ hasn't played a second if pro yet. Hockey IQ at junior and hockey IQ when the game is st it's fastest in the NHL are very different.

 

[daver]

If you pay attention I only said that argument can be made that they are better, not that they are necessarily better let alone that they are definitely better offensively. Though if you look at the p/gp domination over the field, MacKinnon and Draisaitl through their primes have been slightly superior to Patrick Kane's prime. I think Auston Matthews is a better player too, but I won't derail the thread further.

Kane's best stretch (2013 to 2019): NHL Stats

#2 in points and #2 in PPG

His PPG is 10% better than #5 (Kucherov), is 16% better than #10 (Giroux), and 27% better than #20 (Draisatl)

MacKinnon (2017 to 2023): NHL Stats

#3 in points and #4 in PPG

His PPG is 13% better than #5 (Panarin), is 16% better than #10 (Crosby), and 35% better than #20 (Scheifele)

They are quite close offensively with Kane having the best season between the two.

I put Draisaitl on the same level as Kucherov/Mac/Matthews even though his numbers are better than theirs.

And yes, better offensively and better player are two different things. I would say that in a conversation about Bedard, McDavid and Kane, the focus should be only on offensive production only.

So whatever gap you think there is between McDavid and Kane, the gap is the same between McDavid and the current best of the rest.

 

[daver]

Pretty bold statement when that IQ hasn't played a second if pro yet. Hockey IQ at junior and hockey IQ when the game is st it's fastest in the NHL are very different.

The point was that brain power and hockey IQ are two different things. Maybe McDavid can process things faster but that doesn't necessarily mean the end result is better.

Given the narrative that Bedard is too small and too slow in comparison to McDavid, how did he better McDavid, and every other CHL prospect in the last 35 years save for Mario and Crosby, if he doesn't have some superior skills/physical tools?

It should be established that "McDavid level" is similar to Crosby level and Jagr level.

 

[Barrie22]

i keep hearing he's in the Matthews/Mackinnon territory. What separates him from McDavid is size and speed.

He is the same build as Crosby.