Incompetence vs Indifference

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Do they want to win?

  • Yes, they don't care about revenue

  • Yes, that's the greatest way to earn revenue

  • No, they don't care about revenue

  • No, they only care about revenue


Results are only viewable after voting.

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Well at least when it comes to stupidity/incompetence, the Leafs are alone and #1.
"Sports is a results oriented business" and the stats don't lie.

As far as playoff performance and winning playoff games the Leafs rank #1 as the Worst of all 32 teams.

The recent expansion Seattle team lost in game #7 by a 2-1 score to Dallas of round #2, after beating the defending Cup Champs Avs in round #1 in just 2023

1718847063593.png


Our Leafs in 19 years of the Salary Cap have not be able to match a recent expansion team let alone, noting that the other recent expansion team Vegas won the Stanley Cup this season.

How can anyone with a straight face declare the Leafs are in it to win it all as their #1 objective, while the results put them behind expansion teams, who began with other teams castoffs.

The moral of the story being all the Money in the World can't buy you Stanley Cup success. as you have to earn it and you need the right players, coaches and systems to achieve that.

Don't even get me started on the gross incompetence of the Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe and Mark Hunter era.

There is only a Salary Cap for players but not management, so then why would the richest NHL team hire a Greenhorn President, who hired a greenhorn GM who hired a greenhorn Coach without any experience at their NHL positions thinking this is the road to Stanley Cup success? Are you really kidding me, trying to convince me this is MLSE serious about winning the Cup?

Sadly MLSE got exactly what they paid for, and sadly for all of Leaf Nation Fans they have to pay the price for investing their time and effort into their team with NO hope of success, and only endure endless failure.
 

bax

Registered User
Mar 4, 2011
2,389
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They want to play as many home playoff games as possible, really no reason to believe otherwise.
regular season tickets = approx 8600 (41 games, 2nd last row), team pays the players.
playoff tickets = approx 11000 (based on 16 games, 2nd last row), team doesn't pay the players.

Couldn't imagine how much extra revenue would be generated by a trip to the finals.
The Leafs winning is a license to print money. I'm not sure how anybody could ever see it differently.
 
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bax

Registered User
Mar 4, 2011
2,389
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I’ll say he’ll be better than Shanahan.

I think Pelley is preventing the Leafs from signing Marner.

He’s basically neutered shanahan.

The Leafs could be a useful team without Marner and Tavares.
I thought he couldn't sign until July 1.
 

Mess

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Feb 27, 2002
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They want to play as many home playoff games as possible, really no reason to believe otherwise.
regular season tickets = approx 8600 (41 games, 2nd last row), team pays the players.
playoff tickets = approx 11000 (based on 16 games, 2nd last row), team doesn't pay the players.

Couldn't imagine how much extra revenue would be generated by a trip to the finals.
Sure but that misses the big Picture.. You have to able to separate the business side of running a profitability business side from the objective of a sports franchise winning playoff games and championships.

According to Forbes 500 (Dec 2023) as posted above the Leafs are the richest NHL franchise valued at $2.8 billion currently. In 2012, the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan (OTPP) sold their 79.53% share of the company for CA $1.32 billion to a joint venture between Rogers Communications and BCE Inc., two of Canada's largest media companies, giving the company an equity value of CA$1.66 billion.

The Toronto Maple Leafs are the most valuable team in the National Hockey League for the first time since 2014. Even though they have not won the Stanley Cup since 1967, Forbes values the Maple Leafs at $2.8 billion, $150 million more than the New York Rangers ($2.65 billion). If $2.8 billion sounds too rich for a team that earlier last year won a playoff series for the first time since 2004, consider this, that profitability is not tied to team on ice success: Leafs stand at the TOP as the most profitable NHL team.

Since Bell/Rogers has taken over ownership in 2012 in those 12 years they have more then doubled their $1.32 billion investment into a $2.8 billion current empire.

While winning playoff games is nice that revenue stream is small potatoes in regards Franchise Value increase, dealing with investors, shareholders and stock investors .

Lets do the playoff math here.. Lets say a home playoff game for MLSE returns a $10 mil profit (including all sales, admission, parking, merchandise, food and beverage etc)

It takes 4 rounds and 16 wins to hoist a Cup but revenue is tied to HOME game receipts not road games.
So in a sweep series = 4 games 2 at home and 2 on road =2 X $10 mil/g = $20 mil
IF your the underdog in 7 game series only 3 possible home gate receipts max earnings (= 3 games X $10 mil or $30 mil)
IF your the favourite in 7 games series then 4 possible home gate receipts max earnings (= 4 X $10 mil or $40 mil)

Since the Leafs make the playoffs and usually go 6-7 games then the 1st round of 3 home games or $30 mil profit guaranteed even if you lose in round #1

ONLY 1 team gets to hoist the Cup and there are no guarantees once the playoffs begin. After 2 playoff rounds only 4 teams remain capable of increasing playoff revenue all others end.

When you're talking profitability in the Billions as an organization then chasing a few extra $10 mil (with no guarantees) its really small potatoes in the big picture.. Might as well stay the course, spend to the salary Cap max, fill the buildings to the rafters to capacity for 41 guaranteed homes games and make the playoffs and take your chances believing anything can happen.

When you're already the NHL's most profitable franchise with limited to no playoff success required, then there really isn't any serious motivation making hard decisions to try and win a Cup.
 
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torontoblood

Proud Member of Leafs Nation
May 27, 2021
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The Red Sox lost the fandom after they won a championship. Less hunger less passion.

Owners happier than fans of Leafs and Raptors​

ROBERT MACLEOD
TORONTO
PUBLISHED MAY 30, 2002
This article was published more than 22 years ago. Some information may no longer be current.

Now that the Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Raptors have both officially ended their seasons without so much as a whiff at a championship, the ownership can find some comfort from the fact that attendance figures have never been stronger.
"I can tell you that I'm certainly the envy of my colleagues in the two leagues," said Chris Overholt, vice-president of sales and services at Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd., which owns both clubs.
"Not only am I in a very fortunate position with the Leafs, but we've now got a real strong product on the Raptors side. It's a nice place to be."

Another sellout of 19,327 fans streamed into the Air Canada Centre on Tuesday night to witness the fall of the Leafs, who lost 2-1 in overtime to the Carolina Hurricanes. It was one of 11 playoff sellouts that the National Hockey League club enjoyed this spring after selling out the ACC for all 41 dates during the regular season.

Carolina advanced to the Stanley Cup final for the first time in franchise history by eliminating the Maple Leafs with a 4-2 series win in the Eastern Conference final.

Selling NHL hockey in Toronto has never been a difficult chore, even though it is 35 years since the Leafs rewarded their loyal following with a Stanley Cup -- or even an appearance in the final. Nobody in the Leaf organization can recall the previous time a ticket for a home game went unsold.

The big growth curve for Maple Leaf Sports this season was provided by the Raptors, even though the National Basketball Association team's season came to an end with an opening-round playoff loss to the Detroit Pistons.

The Raptors enjoyed unprecedented success at the gate, selling out the ACC for 40 of their 41 regular-season dates with an overall average of 19,784 -- just 16 shy of capacity and fourth best among the NBA's 29 teams. The only non-sellout was for the third home game of the season when only 18,887 bothered to show up on a Wednesday night in October to watch the awful Golden State Warriors.

The 40 sellouts easily eclipsed the old mark of 27 established by the Raptors during the 2000-01 season.

Next season will be the Raptors' eighth in the NBA. Despite the strong attendance figures this past season, Overholt said he remains uncertain when it comes to gauging how secure the team's fan base is in Toronto.

"I wish I knew because I'd sleep better at nights," he said. "I think we feel that it's quite secure, but we try not to act that way. That's the best way to put it."
Overholt only has to look at the attendance woes that have befallen the Blue Jays, Toronto's American League baseball team, to keep him from becoming complacent about selling basketball tickets.

A team that drew in excess of four million fans for three consecutive seasons in the early 1990s, when it won back-to-back World Series titles, the Jays have struggled at the gate in recent years.

Through their first 27 home games this season, the Jays are averaging 18,299 at the SkyDome, a 13-per-cent dip when compared with the same period last year and a far cry from the record 50,098 the franchise averaged in 1993.


"We're very mindful with what has happened with the Blue Jays," Overholt said. "We try to act every day in a fashion that insulates our future from that."


Paul Allemby, the Jays' senior vice-president of marketing and sales, said the road back for the baseball team has been made more difficult since the ACC first opened in 1999.

"Any time a new stadium is built it's always going to affect existing facilities, regardless of the sport," he said. "Suddenly it's the hot new place in town.

"The Leafs and the Raptors I think have to be careful that they do all the right things in terms of how they manage their fan base. The bubble always bursts."

Gord Ash, who was the Jays assistant general manager when they won the World Series in 1992 and 1993, said there were several factors that led to the loss of interest in the baseball team.

"People look back to the strike [in 1994]and I'm sure that was part of it," Ash said. More significantly, he believes that once the Jays won it all, some of the excitement about heading down to the SkyDome began to wane.


‘’Anticipation is a wonderful thing in sports," Ash said. "Once we had won the championship, not once but twice . . . there was not much for that sporting generation to really look forward to. They had seen it all."

Richard Peddie, president and chief executive officer of Maple Leaf Sports, said his organization is taking nothing for granted.

Plans are already under way to alter operations at Raptors games for next season and that other measures are being considered to make life more pleasurable for both hockey and basketball fans at the ACC, including adding more washroom facilities.

"This organization is absolutely not complacent," Peddie said.
 
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PromisedLand

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Dec 3, 2016
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Given results thus far and the actions of the past management. I have to conclude that they only care about revenue.

If they cared about winning Dubas/Keefe would have been kicked to the curb long time ago and Marner would have been traded already

Pelley's statement "we are here to win; we are not here to sell jerseys" to me it simply says that with the new CEO they may change directions where winning takes precedence over everything.
 

PromisedLand

I need more FOOD
Dec 3, 2016
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They want to win, they're just stupid

there is wanting to win and then going out there and doing what it takes to win.

I will simplify:

- Most if not all want a good physique with muscles and what not... BUT are they willing to put the work in to achieve those results? Workouts, eating habits, rest, discipline, consistency, etc..... ???

No hockey player goes out there or for that matter any club has a team that doesn't want to win. Wanting something and actually doing something to achieve it are two different things.

I think MLSE has a profit target as long as they achieve it year after year they are content. The f***ing ticket, beers, parking, merchandise, etc... prices for Leafs compared to other teams is proof enough; at least for me ;)

Also the premise of this poll is kinda flawed IMO. Are there any hockey players or teams out there who don't want to win? Is there any team in the NHL if polled would say.... "yea we don't want to win the cup" seriously? LOL

Its not the "wanting to win" but what the F are you doing to go about achieving that "winning" is the right question. IMO Leafs haven't done F all to achieve it even though they "want to win" lol ;)
 
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TMLBlueandWhite

Registered User
Feb 2, 2023
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1,903
Why can't it be both.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. If anything complacency breeds incompetency. All indications point to everyone associated with this team being happy just making the playoffs.

The financial incentive to go any further is negligible for both owners and players.

Bell generates a whopping $25 BILLION in revenue every year. Rogers pulls in another disgusting $15 BILLION. The Leafs generate a piddly $281 million by comparison.

The players only get paid for regular season accomplishments.

Why WOULD they want to win it all. Everyone is happy just collecting a pay cheque. But it's better than what we had before Shanahan took over so that makes it ok.

ML$E is complacent with mediocrity and you should be too.
 
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rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
15,940
12,380
Given results thus far and the actions of the past management. I have to conclude that they only care about revenue.

If they cared about winning Dubas/Keefe would have been kicked to the curb long time ago and Marner would have been traded already

Pelley's statement "we are here to win; we are not here to sell jerseys" to me it simply says that with the new CEO they may change directions where winning takes precedence over everything.
Pelley’s statement was classic confession through projection………..
 

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
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Ottawa
Management cares about winning, but it's kind of far down their priority list.

Under Shanahan their priorities have been as follows:

#1 - Loyalty to core players - I think there can be no arguments that keeping the core boys happy, and in the order of Matthews, Marner, everyone else. After Dubas took Nylander to the eleventh hour and blinked on that contract negotiation, I think Shanahan said, "never again". After Babcock asked Marner for the lazy list, Shanahan said never again. Protecting these guys egos and emotions has been what drives coaching decisions, trades, contracts, and our long term planning. This is all summed up by, "We can and we will"

#2 - Holding on to the success we have - This can similarly be described as fear of regression, but this is where we can see that management is unwilling to take substantial risks, as a slide in the standings would cost them their jobs. They're content to make the playoffs as the #3 division seed with 100 points every year as a baseline, and are unwilling to boldly change to try and win playoff rounds if it might risk the regular season success. This decision is made out of fear.

#3 - Winning - Here is where winning lies in the list. It is not above all costs like you see from Vegas management. They care about winning and try to win over other priorities like building a strong prospect pool, but it's secondary to maintaining what we have in players and position in the standings.

They don't really care about revenue. Revenue is a byproduct of winning. We sell out every regular season game, so they make more money if they go further in the playoffs. They're afraid of missing the playoffs because they'll all get fired, not because of revenue. The telecoms, as much as I hate their guts, are entirely hands-off. The bit about selling jerseys is described under my points #1+2.
 
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57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
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"Sports is a results oriented business" and the stats don't lie.

As far as playoff performance and winning playoff games the Leafs rank #1 as the Worst of all 32 teams.

The recent expansion Seattle team lost in game #7 by a 2-1 score to Dallas of round #2, after beating the defending Cup Champs Avs in round #1 in just 2023

View attachment 884647

Our Leafs in 19 years of the Salary Cap have not be able to match a recent expansion team let alone, noting that the other recent expansion team Vegas won the Stanley Cup this season.

How can anyone with a straight face declare the Leafs are in it to win it all as their #1 objective, while the results put them behind expansion teams, who began with other teams castoffs.

The moral of the story being all the Money in the World can't buy you Stanley Cup success. as you have to earn it and you need the right players, coaches and systems to achieve that.

Don't even get me started on the gross incompetence of the Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe and Mark Hunter era.

There is only a Salary Cap for players but not management, so then why would the richest NHL team hire a Greenhorn President, who hired a greenhorn GM who hired a greenhorn Coach without any experience at their NHL positions thinking this is the road to Stanley Cup success? Are you really kidding me, trying to convince me this is MLSE serious about winning the Cup?

Sadly MLSE got exactly what they paid for, and sadly for all of Leaf Nation Fans they have to pay the price for investing their time and effort into their team with NO hope of success, and only endure endless failure.
The Vegas Golden Knights went from expansion team to Stanley Cup Champs in 6 seasons. Yet here we are treading water after 8 with the Core Fore.
 

Punch Drunk Loov

Thought Viktor Loov was going to be a guy
Dec 6, 2011
5,553
3,894
Yeah I'd say the priorities are
1. Money
2. Winning

They care about and want both. Executives are seeking a healthy salary and bonus for their own success first and foremost and to ensure the good times are going, they need to win. Not sure what to vote for but I think that's all I need to offer.
 
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thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
41,321
11,586
Why can't it be both.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. If anything complacency breeds incompetency. All indications point to everyone associated with this team being happy just making the playoffs.

The financial incentive to go any further is negligible for both owners and players.

Bell generates a whopping $25 BILLION in revenue every year. Rogers pulls in another disgusting $15 BILLION. The Leafs generate a piddly $281 million by comparison.

The players only get paid for regular season accomplishments.

Why WOULD they want to win it all. Everyone is happy just collecting a pay cheque. But it's better than what we had before Shanahan took over so that makes it ok.

ML$E is complacent with mediocrity and you should be too.


Exactly. The correct answer is not available for selection.
 

egd27

exspecta usque ad proximum annum
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Jul 8, 2011
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  • Spend more than they need to on players every year
  • Take on uninsured contracts to gain more assets
  • Spend on first class training and practice facilities
  • Spend on one of, if not the, largest player development staff
  • Spend on large scouting staff
  • Spend on 5 "assistant" GM's
  • Spend on one of, if not the, largest analytics staff
  • etc. etc.
Not really the actions of an organization that is only interested in profits.

IMO it's entirely incompetence and poor choices
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,724
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Leafs Home Board
Not fair. We went from 50+ years Cup drought to winning a round in 8 tries.
Of course things look worse if you’re going fret about the little things…

The Leafs won more playoff rounds when Harold Ballard owned the team and he wasn't trying at all.

Let that sink in for older Leaf fans that had to endure that torture, only to have the gross incompetence of the Shanahan era past 10 years under-perform that low bar that was actually lying on the ground.

Gross Incompetence is the only way to answer this question.
 
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nuck

Schrodingers Cat
Aug 18, 2005
11,595
2,646
The Vegas Golden Knights went from expansion team to Stanley Cup Champs in 6 seasons. Yet here we are treading water after 8 with the Core Fore.
Knights have a Foley, not a board. Being a public company without an individual majority share holder means its always profit first. Having said that, the Leafs issues in recent years aren't from being cheap, they are from ineptitude at senior management levels. I don't think the board fired Lou, or hired KD or Keefe. If they were even going to exercise more than a rubber stamp approval of those moves it would only be based on profit protection, and none of those decisions at the time looked like they would affect the MLSE bottom line. And they didn't,

An individual owner might have shown Shanahan to the door quicker because he wants to hoist a Cup and to get richer. MLSE just wants the income stream.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
41,321
11,586
The Leafs won more playoff rounds when Harold Ballard owned the team and he wasn't trying at all.

Let that sink in for older Leaf fans that had to endure that torture, only to have the gross incompetence of the Shanahan era past 10 years under-perform that low bar that was actually lying on the ground.

Gross Incompetence is the only way to answer this question.

Yes gross level incompetence is correct. Its consistently displayed by this organization year after year. Personally I think its because they have a echo chamber at MLSE and hire exclusively friends of friends etc. BT is the GM and his family are friends with Larry T. Its blatant and needs dismantled and restructured.
 

Leafsfan74

Registered User
Jul 2, 2018
5,108
5,404
Since I have some free time I will give you my personal example of the level of indifference I have, a lifelong fan who before last year probably missed fewer games than you can count on both hands over the prior 40 years even if it was just to catch a period before I went out.

My friend called me up to say he had Leaf tickets for the game and asked if I wanted to join him. He was handing me the ticket, I'd probably buy him a couple of beer and he'd be content.

I was scratching my behind at the time, staring at the ceiling in between watching reruns of Threes Company, the one where Jack dresses as an old woman in the baking contest, I always liked that one.

Anyways, I thought for a second and said "I'd really like to but I'm kind of busy today (scratching my behind, staring at the ceiling and watching John Ritter get hit on by a dirty old man), thanks anyways." He was surprised, he's known me since we were tykes and I'd never turn down Leaf tickets.

Anyways my parting words were "let me know when you have S.C Final tickets and I will even pay for them". We both chuckled knowing that Leafs in the Finals isn't going to happen.

Now, this is the smallest sample size possible, however, I noticed it a couple of years ago; Leaf fans aren't as passionate or interested as they used to be. As long as corporations pay for tickets MLSE doesn't care.

Nothing lasts forever though, I can name a dozen cities across sports. This is especially true if being a sponsor of the Leafs is synonymous with mediocrity. We may already be there.
 

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