Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXXXI

[Avs71]

If Siemens even just becomes another Hejda, that would be a very valuable player for this team.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

If Siemens even just becomes another Hejda, that would be a very valuable player for this team.

I would be very happy with that, we need Hejda type of player, just younger. That would be great.

 

[avsfan09]

His potential was Brad Stuart then and it's Brad Stuart now, whether you over-estimated his ability to put up points or not.

There was definitely thought to be some offensive upside. Not a forty point defenseman but a good puck moving stay at home guy.

 

[tigervixxxen]

He can move the puck, it's more shooting is the issue.

 

[avsfan09]

Hasn't that been who RS has been comparing him to since his draft? I know some of us bought the 'Stevens is my role model' hype (myself included, I had a big man crush on Duncan), but a young 2nd pairing mobile Barrett Jackman is still a big need for this team and being mentored by Adam Foote might just be what he needs to reach the next level.

I wish he'd get called up for that very reason, to spend time with Foote.

I agree. I think he's a guy who could potentially work well with Barrie. They would each have obvious roles. It'd be a similar situation as playing with Elliot.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Siemens and Barrie could be a very nice second pairing for years to come. Siemens has a lot of work ahead of him to reach that spot, though. Not sure on the potential of Bigras, but I see people penciling him in alongside EJ on the first pairing. That seems like a little bit of wishful thinking. That lefty to partner EJ is probably going to come from outside of the organization, if that asset comes at all.

 

[avsfan09]

That lefty to partner EJ is probably going to come from outside of the organization, if that asset comes at all.

We might have the ability to draft a potential one this year. Hopefully Werenski is available at our pick but its looking less and less likely every day.

 

[Gabe the Babe]

I've always said Siemens can be a Hjalmarsson type. Hes the perfect Barrie partner down the line.

 

[dahrougem2]

I'm willing to be patient with Siemens, however, if by the 2016-2017 he isn't at least a regular on the 3rd pairing, then I'll start to have some worries. But I'm not expecting much more than 2nd pairing as his ceiling, and I'll be happy if he's a staple on the 3rd pairing to be honest.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

We might have the ability to draft a potential one this year. Hopefully Werenski is available at our pick but its looking less and less likely every day.

Bigras is probably a better partner for EJ. We don't want EJ to be the defensive guy on his pair. Not that he couldn't play that role, but he is at his best when he has more freedom. I don't see Werenski getting to that level defensively to be a great fit with EJ. I'm not saying it would be a bad pair, but I think a different style would work a lot better. Early last year before Hedja started getting banged up and he was playing like a legit top pair shutdown guy that pair was arguably the most effective in the league, and EJ has only stepped up his offensive since last year (Hedja has regressed a lot though). We kind of need the opposite of Werenski to play with EJ. A top notch defender with the potential for a good 2way game.

Werenski and Barrie would be a great duo though, especially if Barrie continues his decent defensive play. They could be sheltered as an offensive pair, letting the other pairs take on the heavy defensive lifting. They shouldn't be a complete joke, defensively. And they could really dominate offensively.

 

[Avs_19]

I like the optimism regarding Siemens but I don't know. I'm just hoping they actually give him a shot before shipping him off elsewhere. He isn't one of Roy's guys and it appears as if a few others have passed him on the organizational depth chart. I think the injuries have really hurt him and his development has stalled a bit because of that. Now, I rarely watch him play so that's just my opinion based off of a very small sample size and what I read about him.

It's early and he's still very young but him and McNeill are the only ones in the top 20 to not play a NHL game yet. Even defensemen who were more raw and projected to take longer have already played in the NHL.

 

[tigervixxxen]

He's shown development this season. It might be slower than we'd like but it's there. I don't know is even call it optimism per se, patience is probably a better word. Or maybe managing expectations. Let's see what happens when his ELC is up.

 

[Crisp Breakout]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I'd be happy even if Siemens turns into a reliable, physical third-pairing defenseman--like Brad Stuart with better puck skills.

 

[Iceberg]

Bigras is probably a better partner for EJ. We don't want EJ to be the defensive guy on his pair. Not that he couldn't play that role, but he is at his best when he has more freedom. I don't see Werenski getting to that level defensively to be a great fit with EJ. I'm not saying it would be a bad pair, but I think a different style would work a lot better. Early last year before Hedja started getting banged up and he was playing like a legit top pair shutdown guy that pair was arguably the most effective in the league, and EJ has only stepped up his offensive since last year (Hedja has regressed a lot though). We kind of need the opposite of Werenski to play with EJ. A top notch defender with the potential for a good 2way game.

Werenski and Barrie would be a great duo though, especially if Barrie continues his decent defensive play. They could be sheltered as an offensive pair, letting the other pairs take on the heavy defensive lifting. They shouldn't be a complete joke, defensively. And they could really dominate offensively.

You don't pay around 5M to Barrie for him to be sheltered. Most nights he will be facing the other team's 2nd line. He, more than EJ, needs a stay-at-home type partner. He need's a Guenin that can handle the puck.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

You can give someone their minutes and still shelter them compared to a normal balanced pair. Wouldn't it be nice to have Barrie get more OZ starts than he does now?

 

[Iceberg]

You can give someone their minutes and still shelter them compared to a normal balanced pair. Wouldn't it be nice to have Barrie get more OZ starts than he does now?

No.

One of his strengths is getting the puck out of the D zone. He is important on D zone faceoffs as well.

 

[dahrougem2]

No.

One of his strengths is getting the puck out of the D zone. He is important on D zone faceoffs as well.

Yes, it is possible. Just take a good look at how St. Louis uses Kevin Shattenkirk. That's exactly how we have to use Barrie when we get him the proper partner. Problem is, we need a partner for EJ before we find a partner for Barrie

 

[SuperJoe]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I'd be happy even if Siemens turns into a reliable, physical third-pairing defenseman--like Brad Stuart with better puck skills.

Actually that's best case scenario I see for him and I for one would be happy with that outcome

 

[dahrougem2]

Actually that's best case scenario I see for him and I for one would be happy with that outcome

While Siemens' development has taken longer than others, the best case scenario for him is not third-pairing defenseman. That would be selling him short and saying that the likely scenario is a 6/7/8 defenseman, which I don't think he'll end up as. I think he ends up as a #4 in his prime. That prime, though, is still years away.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Why oh why can't people see we should just trade this years first into a guy that can be EJs partner NOW rather than waiting 2-4 years after we draft someone to come along.....


Trade this years 1st in some sort of deal for Phanuef (500k-1 mill salary retained), Greene from NJ, or some other player that is on the outs with their team, looking for a change to a team on the up and coming list, or a cap casualty from a power team is the right move. (In a perfect world the Avs trade the 1st, Berra, and maybe a throw away prospect in the deal -- creating a spot for Pickard and saving some money/cap/roster space) This is the summer to get a player, teams are looking to trim cap space due to the slower cap growth than expected.

That player would be a known quantity NOW, signed to term, at presumably a reasonable cap hit. Then you hit the UFA market or find via another smaller trade a depth D man to try and change things up further while working in Siemens/Bigras this year. (moving Holden or Guenin out of the everyday lineup, perhaps both if one of the rookies is ready to go)

If the team improves wildly, as it should after adding two capable D men and a healthy Barrie to the roster at the start of the season, you evaluate where you are with RoR. If O'Reilly can be signed to a deal, great. If not you can now use him as a trade chip at the deadline for futures, rather than just focusing on an established D talent. (which you might still do depending on need)

RoR as a rental to a contender next year would fetch at least a top forward prospect, a pick, and a secondary prospect.....more than enough to restock the value of the 1st lost this summer in the D trade.

OR, if O'Reilly does re-sign, keeping O'Reilly and solving the problem on D is well worth a 10-12 overall in the draft.

Having the established player now also allows Siemens and Bigras to develop slower and not to be rush as an added bonus.

This team, while it may miss the playoffs, is a top 2/3 dman, a bottom pairing d man, and some added 3rd/4th line depth away from being a contender. All of which can be addressed this summer if the Avs do things right.

I am not saying they should foolishly trade futures, but waiting around for things to happen is how the Oliers and other teams that get stuck in the never ending cycle of draft and develop get to where they are at.

The Hawks, Pens, Kings, and others all made some bold moves just prior to going big time to get where they are at, with some risk attached. (Hawks and Pens both tried Hossa and it worked for both teams, Pens lost in SCF, Hawks have won 2 with him, Hawks signed him of course.... Kings got Richards and Carter)

The Avs are at that point....do you pull the trigger and end the rebuild...or do you continue treading water?

 

[dahrougem2]

Drury_Sakic no offence, but almost every trade proposal I've ever read that you've made has sucked. There is no reason to move our 1st round pick for Phaneuf. Why bother? Unless he's coming here at 50% retained and only making $3.5M (Which there is no chance of), there is no reason to trade for him. There's also no reason to give up what it will take to acquire Andy Greene.

We are not the Oilers, we've got a more diversified core group of forwards and we have defenseman who have proven to be very good at the NHL level already. The Oilers don't have an EJ, nor do they have a Barrie. They also don't have a goaltender. We are a very different team than the Oilers.

This team has made two bold moves already in the span of 4 years acquiring EJ and Varlamov, there is no need to go out of our way and make a bold move just for the sake of making a bold move. If O'Reilly doesn't plan on re-signing here, he'll be traded and that will be the only bold move this team makes. No trading the 2015 1st. No trading Bleackley or Bigras or Siemens or Geertsen etc. No trading Pickard because his value is low. Just no reason to do any of the things that you mention.

Do you think about the future of this team? Say we acquire Phaneuf and Greene, and we only have to give up picks/prospects and the odd player. What happens in 2016? What happens when EJ, MacKinnon, Barrie, and McGinn are ALL up for new contracts? Not going to be able to afford all of them given the money being paid to Duchene, Landeskog, Phaneuf, Greene, Iginla, and Varlamov. At least one of EJ/MacKinnon/Barrie would probably have to go, not to mention we'd almost assuredly be trading O'Reilly and needing to replace him. So what's the solution? Just hope that the Avs win the cup next year and all is well? Can't afford all these players unless the rest of the team is making very cheap money or on ELC's, the latter not likely given you'd like to move a lot of prospects

No thanks on Phaneuf or Greene. Both scenarios likely have us trading one of our top prospects or our 1st round pick, and that's something I don't want to do unless the return is substantial. Phaneuf and Greene don't qualify as substantial

 

[InjuredChoker]

i'd trade a lot for greene but probably not enough for what it would take.

i'd stay the hell away from phaneuf. that contract is going to be brutal soon.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Why oh why can't people see we should just trade this years first into a guy that can be EJs partner NOW rather than waiting 2-4 years after we draft someone to come along.....


Trade this years 1st in some sort of deal for Phanuef (500k-1 mill salary retained), Greene from NJ, or some other player that is on the outs with their team, looking for a change to a team on the up and coming list, or a cap casualty from a power team is the right move. (In a perfect world the Avs trade the 1st, Berra, and maybe a throw away prospect in the deal -- creating a spot for Pickard and saving some money/cap/roster space) This is the summer to get a player, teams are looking to trim cap space due to the slower cap growth than expected.

That player would be a known quantity NOW, signed to term, at presumably a reasonable cap hit. Then you hit the UFA market or find via another smaller trade a depth D man to try and change things up further while working in Siemens/Bigras this year. (moving Holden or Guenin out of the everyday lineup, perhaps both if one of the rookies is ready to go)

If the team improves wildly, as it should after adding two capable D men and a healthy Barrie to the roster at the start of the season, you evaluate where you are with RoR. If O'Reilly can be signed to a deal, great. If not you can now use him as a trade chip at the deadline for futures, rather than just focusing on an established D talent. (which you might still do depending on need)

RoR as a rental to a contender next year would fetch at least a top forward prospect, a pick, and a secondary prospect.....more than enough to restock the value of the 1st lost this summer in the D trade.

OR, if O'Reilly does re-sign, keeping O'Reilly and solving the problem on D is well worth a 10-12 overall in the draft.

Having the established player now also allows Siemens and Bigras to develop slower and not to be rush as an added bonus.

This team, while it may miss the playoffs, is a top 2/3 dman, a bottom pairing d man, and some added 3rd/4th line depth away from being a contender. All of which can be addressed this summer if the Avs do things right.

I am not saying they should foolishly trade futures, but waiting around for things to happen is how the Oliers and other teams that get stuck in the never ending cycle of draft and develop get to where they are at.

The Hawks, Pens, Kings, and others all made some bold moves just prior to going big time to get where they are at, with some risk attached. (Hawks and Pens both tried Hossa and it worked for both teams, Pens lost in SCF, Hawks have won 2 with him, Hawks signed him of course.... Kings got Richards and Carter)

The Avs are at that point....do you pull the trigger and end the rebuild...or do you continue treading water?

I kind of agree with this. I know our prospect pool is weak, but our current defense might be even weaker. Plus we have the forward crop and goaltending to go far. I don't really think it would be a smart deal to trade our 1st for Phaneuf at 500k retained, but if like you said we can dump some crap at Toronto in the process and get some more retained it would be something i'd go for.

A top 10 first this year is worth a lot. It's a great draft class but really overrated based on how it's being hyped. Who knows, maybe we can get a D better than Phaneuf for a first.

I don't know if we should be shopping the pick but if the right offer comes i wouldn't rule it out if it means getting EJ a partner.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I don't know if we should be shopping the pick but if the right offer comes i wouldn't rule it out if it means getting EJ a partner.

There's a difference between waiting for the right offer and shopping it for anyone's used defenders.

Some people may be getting impatient, but we need that youth to become a sustainable club. If Los Angeles traded their 30th overall pick for some immediate support that year they would be without Pearson right now, that's a pretty big loss considering the club's offensive struggles. If Pittsburgh wasn't stupid and traded Despres, either of their years they could have moved a 1st and lost Despres or Maatta.

Look at what happened when Chicago traded their 2010 1st for a couple lower 2nds? Brock Nelson went to the Islanders, they lost more youth (Morin, Pirri, both Hayes) and now their prospect pool is hardly more standout than ours. They're going to be living off free agents and their current talent soon.

This was just an example of youth supporting contenders, I know the picks aren't the same positions between our club and these examples.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

There's a difference between waiting for the right offer and shopping it for anyone's used defenders.

Some people may be getting impatient, but we need that youth to become a sustainable club. If Los Angeles traded their 30th overall pick for some immediate support that year they would be without Pearson right now, that's a pretty big loss considering the club's offensive struggles. If Pittsburgh wasn't stupid and traded Despres, either of their years they could have moved a 1st and lost Despres or Maatta.

Look at what happened when Chicago traded their 2010 1st for a couple lower 2nds? Brock Nelson went to the Islanders, they lost more youth (Morin, Pirri, both Hayes) and now their prospect pool is hardly more standout than ours. They're going to be living off free agents and their current talent soon.

This was just an example of youth supporting contenders, I know the picks aren't the same positions between our club and these examples.

There's a difference in being patient and seeing where this team is and what it needs.
This team has one of, if not the worst defense in the league but at the same time they have one of the best forward groups on one of the bet goaltenders in the world. Sure it's nice to be patient but defense takes a lot longer to develop than forwards and by the time our D are ready to be elite our forwards may be passing their prime. I'm not saying we need to blow it up but i'm saying trading our first for a partner for EJ is a smart idea if it's a top pairing LHD with term. Sure we can draft a defenseman who's ceiling is a partner for EJ but it would make a lot more sense to trade that pick for somebody who is capable of being that guy now.

I think if we draft it needs to be a winger anyway, but if we're drafting a D I think we would be better off trading instead of hoping that guy turns into a top pairing guy in 5-6 years.