Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXXXI

[dahrougem2]

I'm not saying he's too good to be traded. I'm saying the value of his contract makes him untradeable. It also makes a HUGE assumption we can even sign O'Reilly and for what? You don't take a guy who has made a commitment to the team and trade him at the beginning of his contract. IF they were both signed to the same contact right now it would be a decent debate. The reality that their situations are so vastly different that it's like having the what are we going to do with McDavid discussion.

I don't think it makes too big of a difference to be honest. As I said before, my personal preference is to try and re-sign O'Reilly and convert MacKinnon to RW. But if Sakic/Roy stay true to what they said previously that MacKinnon will be a centre, it's hard for me to see this team being more competitive with Duchene as the 2C instead of O'Reilly. Just how I think a team should be built, though. One offensive dynamo 1C, and one strong two-way 2C

 

[tigervixxxen]

I don't think it makes too big of a difference to be honest. As I said before, my personal preference is to try and re-sign O'Reilly and convert MacKinnon to RW. But if Sakic/Roy stay true to what they said previously that MacKinnon will be a centre, it's hard for me to see this team being more competitive with Duchene as the 2C instead of O'Reilly. Just how I think a team should be built, though. One offensive dynamo 1C, and one strong two-way 2C

I agree with that. Roy hadn't said Mack's future is at C for a while. He told Chambers he's looking for a big center. I think they've seen how well that line worked two years in a row with a defensive C and will work to keep things that way.

 

[dahrougem2]

I agree with that. Roy hadn't said Mack's future is at C for a while. He told Chambers he's looking for a big center. I think they've seen how well that line worked two years in a row with a defensive C and will work to keep things that way.

Exactly, which is why I hope Roy and Sakic sit MacKinnon down after the season and convince him that RW is where he needs to play to be more successful both personally and in terms of having team success. MacK seems like the kind of player who is going to need a defensive centre to play with him. Saw how well it worked with Stastny and, even though it took a while, we started to see it work well with O'Reilly.

 

[agentblack]

Yeah its a taboo subject, the idea of trading Duchene
The Avs, intentionally or not are building a culture of players that are passionate about the success of THIS franchise.
So the concept of trading Matt rubs alot of people the wrong way

But its not like we determine what happens with the team so it doesnt hurt to
talk about the type of return he could get.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Yeah its a taboo subject, the idea of trading Duchene
The Avs, intentionally or not are building a culture of players that are passionate about the success of THIS franchise.
So the concept of trading Matt rubs alot of people the wrong way

But its not like we determine what happens with the team so it doesnt hurt to
talk about the type of return he could get.

Lets look at what players of Duchene's caliber have gotten back in trades...hmmm don't see any top pairing defenders.

 

[agentblack]

Lets look at what players of Duchene's caliber have gotten back in trades...hmmm don't see any top pairing defenders.

Hey man I didnt bring it up talk to dahrougem2

 

[Skip2myBordyloo]

Keep Duchene. Unless we win the lottery.

 

[dahrougem2]

Lets look at what players of Duchene's caliber have gotten back in trades...hmmm don't see any top pairing defenders.

Alright, so then what do you expect to get back for ROR? Surely it can't be a top-pairing defenseman or even a borderline top-pairing defenseman after saying that.

Players of Duchene's caliber aren't traded often, making it more unlikely, but it's also why you can't find any trades with top pairing defenseman since those are rare. We lucked out with EJ. But the Avs are an odd case where they have too many of one thing and not enough of another. To make this team better, either MacKinnon needs to become a permanent RW and keep O'Reilly/Duchene as centres, or MacKinnon moves to centre with O'Reilly as 2C and Duchene gets traded.

 

[Muffin]

Keep Duchene. Unless we win the lottery.

Playoff teams don't get entered into the lottery.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Alright, so then what do you expect to get back for ROR? Surely it can't be a top-pairing defenseman or even a borderline top-pairing defenseman after saying that.

Players of Duchene's caliber aren't traded often, making it more unlikely, but it's also why you can't find any trades with top pairing defenseman since those are rare. We lucked out with EJ. But the Avs are an odd case where they have too many of one thing and not enough of another. To make this team better, either MacKinnon needs to become a permanent RW and keep O'Reilly/Duchene as centres, or MacKinnon moves to centre with O'Reilly as 2C and Duchene gets traded.

We can keep Duchene though, we don't know if we can keep O'Reilly. We have too many good centers? Someone better tell Pittsburgh that Trading Duchene isn't the answer right now. No one will trade a proven young top pairing defender for Duchene. The teams that have them, are keeping them. We can however get a potential top 4 defender for O'Reilly.

Trading a cost controlled asset like Duchene for an unproven defender is as dumb as it gets. If you're trading Duchene you look for full value. What team would give us full value for Duchene? The Yotes aren't trading OEL, Tampa isn't trading Hedman, Nashville isn't moving Josi, etc.

 

[TheStranger]

We can keep Duchene though, we don't know if we can keep O'Reilly. We have too many good centers? Someone better tell Pittsburgh that Trading Duchene isn't the answer right now. No one will trade a proven young top pairing defender for Duchene. The teams that have them, are keeping them. We can however get a potential top 4 defender for O'Reilly.

Trading a cost controlled asset like Duchene for an unproven defender is as dumb as it gets. If you're trading Duchene you look for full value. What team would give us full value for Duchene? The Yotes aren't trading OEL, Tampa isn't trading Hedman, Nashville isn't moving Josi, etc.

I wouldn't be SO sure that nobody would. Some teams are heavy on defense but have always struggled with getting any offense.

 

[dahrougem2]

We can keep Duchene though, we don't know if we can keep O'Reilly. We have too many good centers? Someone better tell Pittsburgh that Trading Duchene isn't the answer right now. No one will trade a proven young top pairing defender for Duchene. The teams that have them, are keeping them. We can however get a potential top 4 defender for O'Reilly.

Trading a cost controlled asset like Duchene for an unproven defender is as dumb as it gets. If you're trading Duchene you look for full value. What team would give us full value for Duchene? The Yotes aren't trading OEL, Tampa isn't trading Hedman, Nashville isn't moving Josi, etc.

Ah so you're certain that we don't get that defender for Duchene but you're certain we can get that potential defender for O'Reilly? Makes sense As I said earlier, I'm not advocating trading Duchene. But he would bring back more in return via trade than O'Reilly would, that's a FACT and is so for the reasons you mentioned: The caliber of player he is, and he's cost controlled for a few more years at 6M. But it would also make our team better trading Duchene instead of O'Reilly because the quality of defenseman coming back would be good.

Think that teams won't move them? Why? Think that the Predators aren't starving for offense and are willing to move a defenseman? How about the Coyotes going full rebuild and claiming nobody is untouchable? How about the Leafs' never ending quest for a centre. Think they wouldn't move Morgan Reilly for Duchene?

There are always opportunities in the NHL. Nobody is untouchable for the right price. I'm a believer in the "If you want it, go get it" mindset. It's what the previous regime did with the EJ and Varlamov trades, and it's what Roy/Sakic seem to do as well.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

I have thought for a long time the Avs should use this years 1st to get a D upgrade.

The Avs were about 2.5-3 million under the cap going into the season.The cap will also grow somewhere between 500k-1.5 million depending on what numbers you look at.

3 step plan. (all presuming the Avs do not end up winning a lotto for McJesus)

Part 1:
Avs:
Phaneuf (Leafs Retain 1 million) 6.0 Mill

Leafs:
Avs 1st 2015
Elliott (RFA rights to)
Berra 1.45

Berra serves as the backup to Bernier or Reimer, or in if the Leafs keep both, the cash rich Leafs can afford to put him on waivers and hide most of his contract in the minors. Elliott, though looking on the outs in Colorado, is still a decent prospect, valued like a 4th/5th round pick and could get a much needed spark out of a change of scenery. He is also a righty shot, which would complement the lefty D that the Leafs have in the pipeline. Leafs add another top end 1st to the pool and move on from Dion.

Part 2:
Avs:
Greene

Devils:
Bleackley
Hishon (RFA rights to)
Conditional 4th Round Pick 2016 (if Avs make playoffs)

Devils are going into rebuilding cycle and could use some forward prospect depth in that process. Hishon also probably gets a legit chance to make the roster and NJ has a history of making smallish players work. Bleackley also fits the mold of a Devils forward in spades. Greene was speculated as a guy that could be moved at the draft by a few of the TSN talking heads at the deadline, as he might not want to be part of a rebuild and due to the fact the Devils have strength in prospects on the blueline.

Part 3:

Sign a depth forward or trade for one on the cheap from a cap strapped team, 3rd line winger or center, that can play up or down the lineup depending on need. Avs have alot of question marks up front in the health of Bords, Winchester, and McGinn, Mitchell being able to play up or down the roster in any forward position, the growth of Everbeast, and desperation of keeping Cliche. The UFA signed would fit as needed.




Avs lineup 2015

Lando(5.71)-O'Reilly(6)-Mac (3.375)
McGinn(3.0)/Tanguay(3.5)-Duchene(6)-Iggy(5.33)
Tanguay(3.5)/McGinn(3.0)-Mitchell(1.8)-X(probably the UFA at 2-3 million)
McLeod(1.35)-X-X

X = Some Combo of Winchester/Bords/Cliche/Everberg/UFA/Traded for forward (whichever fits the line best) ranging from 3-5.5 million depending on situation)


Greene(5)-Johnson (3.75)
Phanuef(6)-Barrie (2.6)
Stuart(3.6)-Holden/Guenin/Siemens/Bigras/Redmond (600k-1.7 million)


Varly (6)
Pickard (1) (estimated)


Add:
Greene (5 million), Phanuef (6 million), Pickard (1.0) = 12 million

Subtract:
Hejda (3.25), Berra (1.45), Briere (4.0), Wilson (2.25), Zanon Buyout (700k) = 10.95 million

Putting the Avs at roughly 68-70 million depending on what they do with the 6th/7th D man spot and how they fill out the 3rd/4th line and forward depth, with the cap probably being in the 71.5-72 range, leaving 2-3 million free for callups/injuries, trades.

I know some are worried/scared/concerned about trading away the farm, but these deals set the Avs up for a long time on D, with Siemens and Bigras still in the system, and the core at forward established. Moving an early/mid 1st and Bleackley to solve the Avs D issues for the next 4-5 years is well worth it.

As for the longer term cap implications, Tanguay and McGinn can both come off the books in a worst case situation next summer to re-sign Barrie and EJ. I also have faith that Sakic will either get O'Reilly signed to a long term deal prior to the deadline next year close to what he makes now OR the Avs will trade him for a package of close to NHL ready forwards and futures at the deadline (meaning his cap hit either remains near the same or goes away). As for replacing Tanguay and McGinn, that would still leave some room to take a flier on a UFA or two.. or not to disregard keeping McGinn or a like player via trading Stuart and/or re-signing Tanguay on a cheap deal for a year depending on how cap growth and other contracts work out. The next summer Iggy comes off the books to get Mac his next contract and help give raises to depth players.

 

[Thepoolmaster]

Ah so you're certain that we don't get that defender for Duchene but you're certain we can get that potential defender for O'Reilly? Makes sense As I said earlier, I'm not advocating trading Duchene. But he would bring back more in return via trade than O'Reilly would, that's a FACT and is so for the reasons you mentioned: The caliber of player he is, and he's cost controlled for a few more years at 6M. But it would also make our team better trading Duchene instead of O'Reilly because the quality of defenseman coming back would be good.

Think that teams won't move them? Why? Think that the Predators aren't starving for offense and are willing to move a defenseman? How about the Coyotes going full rebuild and claiming nobody is untouchable? How about the Leafs' never ending quest for a centre. Think they wouldn't move Morgan Reilly for Duchene?

There are always opportunities in the NHL. Nobody is untouchable for the right price. I'm a believer in the "If you want it, go get it" mindset. It's what the previous regime did with the EJ and Varlamov trades, and it's what Roy/Sakic seem to do as well.

I think the bigger problem with trading Duchene vs. O'Reilly is the salary cap and O'Reilly's status as a UFA. Here are the scenarios:

Trade Duchene for top pairing defenseman and sign O'Reilly to same deal that duchene has. Extremely unlikely but Team is better

Trade Duchene for top pairing defenseman and sign O'Reilly to higher deal than Duchene currently has. Unlikely but more probable team is probably worse off due to salary cap.

Trade Duchene for top pairing defenseman and lose O'Reilly to UFA. Most likely in a Duchene trade. Team is much worse.

Trade O'Reilly for slightly lesser defenseman and keep Duchene at cost controlled salary for 6 years (?). Most likely scenario overall.

 

[FoppaForsberg*]

In any hypothetical Duchene deal, its a given that no way would it happen without ROR being signed longterm.

 

[Thepoolmaster]

In any hypothetical Duchene deal, its a given that no way would it happen without ROR being signed longterm.

While I agree I was just doing it as the contracts are now. And even if you assume that O'Reilly is signed long term you have to assume that he will be eating more cap than Duchene will. The drop-off between the defender we could get for O'Reilly and the defender we could get for Duchene coupled with the increase in salary cap from duchene to O'Reilly is not worth trading Duchene in my opinion.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

In any hypothetical Duchene deal, its a given that no way would it happen without ROR being signed longterm.

I think LeBrun speculated in an article around the trade deadline that a deal might be had between Colorado and Nashville for Weber at the draft, something like the Avs trading Duchene + our 1st for Weber if Colorado could get O'Reilly locked in long term. (personally would want a 2nd or something else coming back from Nashville, but that probably is the price for Weber)

Would be something worth considering IMO....though you have to really believe in Mac being ready for full time center work and O'Reilly being able to carry the load long term as a 60 point 2nd line center to do that type of deal.

It makes sense, as Nashville needs an offensive talent at center, has top end D talent on the roster already, is fiscally a somewhat strapped team (Weber has a decent cap hit but is making 14, 14, 12, 12 before tailing down alot in fiscal dollars) and grows D talent like no other team in the league.




Another spin, would you trade Mac even up for Weber? I would.

 

[agentblack]

The only scenario I can see us moving another first is if we completely strike out in FA and/or Biggie and Siems arent ready. Then its time to roll the dice on a risky trade. I think we are due for one soon anyways.

 

[FoppaForsberg*]

While I agree I was just doing it as the contracts are now. And even if you assume that O'Reilly is signed long term you have to assume that he will be eating more cap than Duchene will. The drop-off between the defender we could get for O'Reilly and the defender we could get for Duchene coupled with the increase in salary cap from duchene to O'Reilly is not worth trading Duchene in my opinion.

Eh, I don't really agree. Duchene would bring back a much better defender imo. And I would be completely open to him being traded over Ror.

I think LeBrun speculated that a deal might be had between Colorado and Nashville for Weber at the draft, something like the Avs trading Duchene + our 1st for Weber if Colorado could get O'Reilly locked in long term.

Would be something worth considering IMO....though you have to really believe in Mac being ready for full time center work and O'Reilly being able to carry the load long term as a 60 point 2nd line center to do that type of deal.

What? Seriously?? Do you have a source for this?

 

[Drury_Sakic]

What? Seriously?? Do you have a source for this?

He was not saying they talked about it, but was just talking about what we might see in the summer at the draft in a broad sense. Not a rumor, just he talked about it as something that made sense. I will look if I can find it, but its probably buried somewhere on ESPN or TSN.com

 

[TheStranger]

Eh, I don't really agree. Duchene would bring back a much better defender imo. And I would be completely open to him being traded over Ror.



What? Seriously?? Do you have a source for this?

Theres no source for random speculation on whether Nashville would trade Weber for Duchene. It's just someone saying "there could be a deal there" if Colorado approached them, he's not saying "I've heard Nashville and Colorado have talked"

 

[Drury_Sakic]

The biggest problem with trading Duchene frankly is that the Avs are trying to build a culture of loyalty, respect, and team with this franchise....and Duchene, Varly, Lando, EJ, and a few other have all taken decent deals to stay with the team and build that future....while the Avs have shown loyalty and respect to those who have earned it.

It sends the wrong message to ship out Duchene while keeping O'Reilly.... kind of like when Philly traded Carter and Richards. Thanks for being pals and signing good deals, now let me kick you in the rear on the way out.

 

[agentblack]

If we can find someone to play with Dutchy like the way Flash and Mules were able to that would be something. In fact I think that would solve alot of problems offensively.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The only scenario I can see us moving another first is if we completely strike out in FA and/or Biggie and Siems arent ready. Then its time to roll the dice on a risky trade. I think we are due for one soon anyways.

There's no time to roll in a risky trade. That's the last thing this org needs to do. That first had to absolutely stay.

 

[AvsRobin]

I don't think we are in a position to give away draft picks either. Especially not after giving away two 2nds already.

Hold on to the first.