NHL Entry Draft If Zadina falls to the Sens should they take him?

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I like Zadina quite a bit more than Wahlstrom just wondering on the snipe aspect alone. I think both are pretty good at that. So if Zadina is a 10/10 what's Wahlstrom?

The way I would put it is Zadina's skill set is like Kucherov and Wahlstrom's is like Hoffman's. All things equal they can probably shoot the puck as well as each other but one guy finds way more ways to score with his hockey sense.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I'm not sure, I wouldn't really rate them like that.

Zadina isn't a pure shooter, he actually mucks it up, cuts into the slot, plays down low. He scores in every way you want. Wahlstrom might have the better shot, but he isn't the better goal scorer. Scoring goals matters more than how you score them.

Part of the reason I think Zadina's the better player.. I do think Wahlstrom is more of a pure shooter. He is more one dimensional.

 

[Sens in Process]

I'm not sure, I wouldn't really rate them like that.

Zadina isn't a pure shooter, he actually mucks it up, cuts into the slot, plays down low. He scores in every way you want. Wahlstrom might have the better shot, but he isn't the better goal scorer. Scoring goals matters more than how you score them.

The only question I have about Zadina is skating hold him back from creating time and space. He seems to have really good edges and lateral dexterity, but his top end speed testing from the top prospect combine is disappointing.

But I agree with this, Zadina is always cutting into the middle and high traffic areas to get better scoring chances. I really appreciate that type of player. Wahlstrom is high- volume shooter from the perimeter.

I have no doubt Wahlstrom will put up similar number to Zadina, especially if he gets to work with a slick puck possession centerman.

I just don't like Wahlstrom's passive style of play.

 

[bert]

Mathew is the chirper, Brady is the tough guy.

For all this talk about new NHL, just think about how effective Tom Wilson has been in these playoffs. He has 14 even strength points in 20 games and is a plus 10. With one hit, he turned 5-9 Marchessault into a shell of himself.

I thought Wilson was, to quote the immortal Don Brennan, a garbage pick by the Capitals, with Hertl and Teravanainen on the board in 2012. Why would you pass on high level skill for a goon who can't skate? The answer is, Wilson helps you win hockey games and big games at that.

Like Wilson, Tkachuk has a relentless motor. But unlike Wilson, he actually has high level hands, passing and hockey sense. He is a much better skater than Wilson was in his draft year as well

Heavy hockey is still highly effective. Kucherov had 2 even strength points and was a -6 against Washington. Stamkos had 0 even strength points and was a -4 in the series. Tampa Bay folded in games 6 and 7. They were physically and emotionally beaten by Washington's onslaught. I remember a play where Wilson caught Kucherov on a back-check during a powerplay and bowled him over. Kucherov just didn't have the time and space.

So youre saying youd rather have a more skilled Tom Wilson than Kucherov? You know that Wilson is riding shot gun to Kuznetsov and Ovechkin? He has been effective in his role but lets not for a second pretend he is driving that offense or 80 percent of NHL forwards wouldnt be producing playing on that line.

Very selective in isolating Kucherovs one bad playoff series of his career against the best team in the NHL. He has 29 goals and 59 points in 62 playoff games.

Ill take the super star 100 point scorer on my team thanks.

 

[bert]

The only question I have about Zadina is skating hold him back from creating time and space. He seems to have really good edges and lateral dexterity, but his top end speed testing from the top prospect combine is disappointing.

But I agree with this, Zadina is always cutting into the middle and high traffic areas to get better scoring chances. I really appreciate that type of player. Wahlstrom is high- volume shooter from the perimeter.

I have no doubt Wahlstrom will put up similar number to Zadina, especially if he gets to work with a slick puck possession centerman.

I just don't like Wahlstrom's passive style of play.

Why does a player need top end speed exactly? Especially as a winger? Edgework is far more important, so are things like hockey sense, puck skills and shot accuracy. Look at the elite scoring wingers at the moment, Gaudreau, Kucherov, Marchand incredible edgework average to above average speed.

 

[DJB]

The only question I have about Zadina is skating hold him back from creating time and space. He seems to have really good edges and lateral dexterity, but his top end speed testing from the top prospect combine is disappointing.

But I agree with this, Zadina is always cutting into the middle and high traffic areas to get better scoring chances. I really appreciate that type of player. Wahlstrom is high- volume shooter from the perimeter.

I have no doubt Wahlstrom will put up similar number to Zadina, especially if he gets to work with a slick puck possession centerman.

I just don't like Wahlstrom's passive style of play.

Wahlstrom plays a similar game to Hoffman and Kessel

 

[Sens in Process]

So youre saying youd rather have a more skilled Tom Wilson than Kucherov? You know that Wilson is riding shot gun to Kuznetsov and Ovechkin? He has been effective in his role but lets not for a second pretend he is driving that offense or 80 percent of NHL forwards wouldnt be producing playing on that line.

Very selective in isolating Kucherovs one bad playoff series of his career against the best team in the NHL. He has 29 goals and 59 points in 62 playoff games.

Ill take the super star 100 point scorer on my team thanks.

No I would take Kucherov everytime. He is phenomenal.

But I value players like Wilson, because in the end, he will help you win.

Tampa Bay has one note smallish skill players and needs to diversify their lineup. Washington badly outplayed them, despite it going to 7. It is a disservice to Kucherov and Stamkos not to provide them with a power forward who can create space for them. I would assume Yzerman will attempt to address this in the off season.

Wilson is just scratching the surface and still young. I bet GMs all around the league would pay a premium for him. It has been his coming out party.

 

[Sens in Process]

Why does a player need top end speed exactly? Especially as a winger? Edgework is far more important, so are things like hockey sense, puck skills and shot accuracy. Look at the elite scoring wingers at the moment, Gaudreau, Kucherov, Marchand incredible edgework average to above average speed.

I agree in theory, but Zadina appears to register as a slow skater. He was one of worst straight-line skaters at the top prospect combine.

Here is the little thing about Zadina. His goal to assist ratio is problematic:

Czech Republic U20 WJC-20 7 1
Halifax Mooseheads QMJHL 44 38
Czech Republic U18 (all) International-Jr 20 11
Czech Republic U16 (all) “C” International-Jr 12 6

There are plenty of more examples.

The players you named virtually always have more assists than goals and most of time by a significant margin. This leads me to believe his hockey sense isn’t super elite. Players with elite hockey sense make players around them better(like Tkachuk). Zadina seems more opportunistic.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Wahlstrom: 26GP-22G-23A-45P (1.73 PPG)
Zadina: 57GP-44G-38A-82P (1.43 PPG)

I know Wahlstrom plays with Hughes, but he handily out-produced Zadina in a harder league to score in, and he's in his 17YR old season, whereas Zadina is in his 18YR old season (late-birthday).

Having watched both players extensively, I don't understand what makes Zadina the consensus 3rd/4th OVR pick and Wahlstrom a consensus 5-10 guy. In my estimation I'd say they have similar potential (30-30-60 threats), with both being pretty safe bets to be NHLers (like most high-end forwards), and because of that I have them ranked about equally.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Wahlstrom: 26GP-22G-23A-45P (1.73 PPG)
Zadina: 57GP-44G-38A-82P (1.43 PPG)

I know Wahlstrom plays with Hughes, but he handily out-produced Zadina in a harder league to score in, and he's in his 17YR old season, whereas Zadina is in his 18YR old season (late-birthday).

Having watched both players extensively, I don't understand what makes Zadina the consensus 3rd/4th OVR pick and Wahlstrom a consensus 5-10 guy. In my estimation I'd say they have similar potential (30-30-60 threats), with both being pretty safe bets to be NHLers (like most high-end forwards), and because of that I have them ranked about equally.

Jeez those numbers are pretty crazy.

 

[bert]

I agree in theory, but Zadina appears to register as a slow skater. He was one of worst straight-line skaters at the top prospect combine.

Here is the little thing about Zadina. His goal to assist ratio is problematic:

Czech Republic U20 WJC-20 7 1
Halifax Mooseheads QMJHL 44 38
Czech Republic U18 (all) International-Jr 20 11
Czech Republic U16 (all) “C” International-Jr 12 6

There are plenty of more examples.

The players you named virtually always have more assists than goals and most of time by a significant margin. This leads me to believe his hockey sense isn’t super elite. Players with elite hockey sense make players around them better(like Tkachuk). Zadina seems more opportunistic.

You're looking for problems in all the wrong places. Scoring goals is a bad thing now? Its harder to do than get assists, much more difficult. You think this means his hockey sense isnt elite because he scores goals? I have never heard of this theory and definitely dont agree with it.

Kucherovs goal to assist ratio is always close does he lack hockey sense?....

 

[SAK11]

Wahlstrom: 26GP-22G-23A-45P (1.73 PPG)
Zadina: 57GP-44G-38A-82P (1.43 PPG)

I know Wahlstrom plays with Hughes, but he handily out-produced Zadina in a harder league to score in, and he's in his 17YR old season, whereas Zadina is in his 18YR old season (late-birthday).

Having watched both players extensively, I don't understand what makes Zadina the consensus 3rd/4th OVR pick and Wahlstrom a consensus 5-10 guy. In my estimation I'd say they have similar potential (30-30-60 threats), with both being pretty safe bets to be NHLers (like most high-end forwards), and because of that I have them ranked about equally.

Dangerous to make that different league comparison. Zadina’s production was pretty well just as good or better than all but 2 players in the Q.
Hughes undoubtedly positively impacted Wahlstrom’s production, too.

That’s not to say your estimation of their future is wrong, though. I personally have Zadina a tier above Wahlstrom as I find he’s a more complete player and more dynamic, but as far as scoring goals goal, I think they are going to be close.

 

[bert]

Wahlstrom: 26GP-22G-23A-45P (1.73 PPG)
Zadina: 57GP-44G-38A-82P (1.43 PPG)

I know Wahlstrom plays with Hughes, but he handily out-produced Zadina in a harder league to score in, and he's in his 17YR old season, whereas Zadina is in his 18YR old season (late-birthday).

Having watched both players extensively, I don't understand what makes Zadina the consensus 3rd/4th OVR pick and Wahlstrom a consensus 5-10 guy. In my estimation I'd say they have similar potential (30-30-60 threats), with both being pretty safe bets to be NHLers (like most high-end forwards), and because of that I have them ranked about equally.

I would argue you have a hard time breaking down talent. You think its not a clear advantage to play with the consensus number 1 pick in Hughes??... Wahlstrom does not carry the puck or create off the rush anywhere like Zadina. His creativity isnt remotely close. He also didnt score against better competition they play games against USHL teams and NCAA Division 1 teams.

 

[Sens in Process]

Dangerous to make that different league comparison. Zadina’s production was pretty well just as good or better than all but 2 players in the Q.
Hughes undoubtedly positively impacted Wahlstrom’s production, too.

That’s not to say your estimation of their future is wrong, though. I personally have Zadina a tier above Wahlstrom as I find he’s a more complete player and more dynamic, but as far as scoring goals goal, I think they are going to be close.

Kucherov had a two to one ratio for assist vs goals this season. From statistics I have seen, Kucherov always has more assists than goals.

It shows he is heavily reliant on others. Even Wahlstrom who floats, has a better goal to assist ratio.

Even in the years Danny Heatley was scoring 50, he still had more assists.

Yes it is a red flag.

 

[Micklebot]

Wahlstrom: 26GP-22G-23A-45P (1.73 PPG)
Zadina: 57GP-44G-38A-82P (1.43 PPG)

I know Wahlstrom plays with Hughes, but he handily out-produced Zadina in a harder league to score in, and he's in his 17YR old season, whereas Zadina is in his 18YR old season (late-birthday).

Having watched both players extensively, I don't understand what makes Zadina the consensus 3rd/4th OVR pick and Wahlstrom a consensus 5-10 guy. In my estimation I'd say they have similar potential (30-30-60 threats), with both being pretty safe bets to be NHLers (like most high-end forwards), and because of that I have them ranked about equally.

Playing for the developmental team is a bit like playing on an all star team though; if you prorated the under 18 teams wins to a 60 game season, they'd have 51 wins to 40 for the next highest (Omaha played 63 games for some reason, so I prorated them to 60 as well). The under 18 team was scoring 5.4 goals a game compared to a league average of 3.12, or compared to the 4.07 goals per game by the top team in the Q. Even if you take out Wahlstrom's 22 goals entirely, that team was scoring at a rate 45% higher than the league average and about 11% higher than the highest scoring team in the Q. Not really a fair comparison, don't you think?

Maybe it's a harder league to score in if you play for the lincoln stars, or greenbay Gamblers, but I think that's a dubious claim if you're talking about the National Under 18 team

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Kucherov had a two to one ratio for assist vs goals this season. From statistics I have seen, Kucherov always has more assists than goals.

It shows he is heavily reliant on others. Even Wahlstrom who floats, has a better goal to assist ratio.

Even in the years Danny Heatley was scoring 50, he still had more assists.

Yes it is a red flag.

Oh my. You're actually arguing Kucherov relies on others for offense? That's just wrong. He was legitimately the best offensive player in hockey this year not named McDavid, hands down.

 

[Micklebot]

Kucherov had a two to one ratio for assist vs goals this season. From statistics I have seen, Kucherov always has more assists than goals.

It shows he is heavily reliant on others. Even Wahlstrom who floats, has a better goal to assist ratio.

Even in the years Danny Heatley was scoring 50, he still had more assists.

Yes it is a red flag.

Should stay away from Laine then too. Big red flag there. Seguin scored more than he assisted on. Stars should probably dump him before he looses all his value. Don't even get me started on Matthews. Ovechkin? That guy will never make it in the NHL with such a terrible goal to assist ratio...

 

[Micklebot]

Oh my. You're actually arguing Kucherov relies on others for offense? That's just wrong. He was legitimately the best offensive player in hockey this year not named McDavid, hands down.

I think he was talking about Zadina with that claim, he was suggesting Kucherov doesn't. The premise being that having more goals than assists is a bad thing, a red flag if you will.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I think he was talking about Zadina with that claim, he was suggesting Kucherov doesn't. The premise being that having more goals than assists is a bad thing, a red flag if you will.

That... doesn't make any sense.

 

[bert]

Kucherov had a two to one ratio for assist vs goals this season. From statistics I have seen, Kucherov always has more assists than goals.

It shows he is heavily reliant on others. Even Wahlstrom who floats, has a better goal to assist ratio.

Even in the years Danny Heatley was scoring 50, he still had more assists.

Yes it is a red flag.

You're cherry picking seasons. In Jr when you dont need to use your teammates as much and have the ability to flat out score goals you score the goals. In JR Kucherovs production was almost 1 to 1. This also leads me to believe you are only stat watching and arent watching the player play, Zadina is incredibly creative.

 

[Benjamin]

Comparisons in this thread are all over the place.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Comparisons in this thread are all over the place.

Comparisons in this thread are like an insomniac owl eating a worm.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Playing for the developmental team is a bit like playing on an all star team though; if you prorated the under 18 teams wins to a 60 game season, they'd have 51 wins to 40 for the next highest (Omaha played 63 games for some reason, so I prorated them to 60 as well). The under 18 team was scoring 5.4 goals a game compared to a league average of 3.12, or compared to the 4.07 goals per game by the top team in the Q. Even if you take out Wahlstrom's 22 goals entirely, that team was scoring at a rate 45% higher than the league average and about 11% higher than the highest scoring team in the Q. Not really a fair comparison, don't you think?

Maybe it's a harder league to score in if you play for the lincoln stars, or greenbay Gamblers, but I think that's a dubious claim if you're talking about the National Under 18 team

This is an excellent post. Thanks for looking into that.

I've always known that it's easier to score in the USHL playing for the USNDTP, which is why I have compiled two separate lists of the highest 17YR old USHL scorers - one for the USNTDP kids and one for the rest of the teams - but those numbers are pretty shocking.

Definitely disregard my comment about Wahlstrom's production being more impressive because of the league, but the 17 versus 18YR old season part still stands. Proper statistical comparison would be what Zadina did last year versus what Wahlstrom did this year, or what Zadina did this year versus what Wahlstrom is projected to do next year. Because of that I definitely think people tend to overstate what Zadina did in the Q this year, even though it was an excellent season no question.

 

[BondraTime]

This is an excellent post. Thanks for looking into that.

I've always known that it's easier to score in the USHL playing for the USNDTP, which is why I have compiled two separate lists of the highest 17YR old USHL scorers - one for the USNTDP kids and one for the rest of the teams - but those numbers are pretty shocking.

Definitely disregard my comment about Wahlstrom's production being more impressive because of the league, but the 17 versus 18YR old season part still stands. Proper statistical comparison would be what Zadina did last year versus what Wahlstrom did this year, or what Zadina did this year versus what Wahlstrom is projected to do next year. Because of that I definitely think people tend to overstate what Zadina did in the Q this year, even though it was an excellent season no question.

#	PLAYER	GP	G	A	TP	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	TP	PIM	+/-
	International-Jr
1.	Filip Zadina (LW)	22	20	11	31	14	8	|
2.	Martin Kaut (RW)	27	10	18	28	36	3	|
3.	Jan Kern (LW)	27	7	11	18	22	0	|
4.	Ostap Safin (RW/LW)	23	8	8	16	16	2	|
5.	Jan Hladonik (C)	23	7	9	16	14	1	|
6.	Ondrej Machala (F)	16	7	7	14	18	1	|
7.	David Kvasnicka (D)	16	2	12	14	10	5	|
8.	Filip Chytil (C/LW)	19	6	7	13	10	1	|
9.	Krystof Hrabik (C)	21	5	8	13	8	0	|
10.	Martin Necas (C/RW)	15	4	9	13	6	4	|

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Zadina was a monster last season, vastly outperforming guys like 12th overall Necas, 21st overall Chytil, and 2018 mid-1st Kaut.

This wasn't an older guy feasting for the 1st time, he would have been a top pick last season if he were eligible.

 

[topshelf15]

Part of me wants him ,but iam so torn ...That Dobson kid could the anchor to our blueline for years