If Marc Bergevin is fired, who do you want for next Habs GM ?

[Capitano]

The franchise has never been the same since Patrick left...he has a desire to win so I believe in him. Honestly he is my second choice...my first is Julien Brisebois but unless there are some palms greased and some secret handshakes I don't think that can happen. If Patrick ends up being the guy I have no issue with it, he is a winner.

 

[sampollock]

I move to open a seance and have our @sampollock summon the spirit of his namesake, for guidance.

Sam, do you have your ouija board handy?

only wish they could find a guy like SAM

 

[LaP]

The franchise has never been the same since Patrick left...he has a desire to win so I believe in him. Honestly he is my second choice...my first is Julien Brisebois but unless there are some palms greased and some secret handshakes I don't think that can happen. If Patrick ends up being the guy I have no issue with it, he is a winner.

After the curse of Bambino now we have the curse of Causseau. We will never win again until the curse is dispelled.

 

[Runner77]

My bar is really low for the next GM

Just be morally opposed to Tony D.

There were apparently 3 maybe 4 other GMs who were lining up for Tony D. at the TDL. If anyone's looking for morals and good values, the NHL is one of the last places I'd be looking to find them.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Because before he was trying to win each yrs with $$ and didn't really had a long-term plan but since he comeback, he said that his big yrs will be next yrs and he did stick to his plan making move to have a really good team next year even if his team had success and I would't bet against QC next yrs... they will be stack. You used his NHL experience but he was with the Avs when they rebuild the team, he's the one who was pushing for MacKinnon in the draft even if a lot of scout wanted Jones and they had Duchene/ROR as centrer, the reason why he quits it's because he wanted to trade up in the draft and that wasn't Sakic philosophy and he wanted to sign Radulov, what would't have hurt the Avs, and Sakic didn't want. The problem is that he was coach and VP, and coach will always want to have the best team possible on paper because there job depend on that but if he's only GM, he won't have this problem

...but you're missing the biggest issue with Montreal. And honestly, you're kinda arguing both for and against Roy.

-That's fine, but having a "plan" in the CHL and the NHL is very different and not inherently transferable. You also haven't articulated what the plan is.

-MacKinnon was the #1 pick by most polled scouts prior to the draft and GM is not an amateur scout. Its not something to hang his hat on.

-Trading up in the vast majority of cases is a bad idea. It's one of those clear data-driven decisions that smart teams know and dumb teams get exploited by. Like, if you're talking about the 2016 draft, the issue is less where they picked but who they picked.

-Radulov would have absolutely hurt the Avs. He could have been the difference between Makar and a Mittelstadt.

-And Roy's job was not in jeopardy. They were already trash for a while and his strategy played a big role in it and he still had a job waiting there for him.

 

[Sorinth]

If you look at the year leading up to Roy leaving Colorado I'm not sure Roy is wrong to say the direction being taken was "wrong"
- They signed Soderberg to a big deal
- Traded O'Reilly
- Traded for Boedkar as a rental
- Drafted Jost with their pick
- Notably didn't sign Radulov despite the connection to Roy

We have no idea what Roy's vision for the team was, but if it was not the above then it's hard to say he was wrong in wanting a different direction for the team.


Personally I doubt Roy would turn us around but I do think he'd do better then Bergevin (Very low bar).

 

[Captain Mountain]

He was never treated as a VP of hockey operations, they gave him a false contract that they didn't respect quickly (cause of frustration x10).

Not agreeing with the direction is not the same thing as "I want to manage like in 1940", that's just putting a pejorative label by default to make a point. Do you know what "direction" he was advocating for? No you don't.

...you're stating what you think happened as fact and then turning my argument into a ridiculous straw-man by basically contradicting your first point.

Patrick Roy Statement

I have thought long and hard over the course of the summer about how I might improve this team to give it the depth it needs and bring it to a higher level. To achieve this, the vision of the coach and VP-Hockey Operations needs to be perfectly aligned with that of the organization. He must also have a say in the decisions that impact the team's performance. These conditions are not currently met.

We know the vision he wasn't aligned with. It lead to one of the worst teams in the NHL being one of the best run in the NHL.

Patrick Roy talks decision to leave Avalanche

"I like to use the word 'resign,'" Roy said when asked about the split. "Obviously, we had different philosophy and sometimes it's better that way. The day I called [executive vice president and general manager Joe Sakic], I mean we talked for about 10-15 minutes about everything, and I mentioned to him that I was [not] going to come back next year. And he offered me to think about it, but I said my decision was made. I had plenty of time to think about it.
"It was a process that I took my time because I was close to my players and I really enjoyed them. It's a special group for me and it was hard to go that way. I always said the coaching part of my life was, I had to enjoy myself and I didn't have much fun, then I decided it was time for me to move on."
Asked about those philosophical differences, Roy said, "It was more like the type of players and stuff like this that [we] didn't necessarily agree on, and it goes upon that. It was people working for the team and stuff like this that we were a little different, but no more than that."
For Roy, analytics are something that didn't quite work for him, though he acknowledged that there are some he likes and some he, well, doesn't agree with. He added, "I think it is pretty much for a lot of coaches."

This is mostly directly from Roy. He didn't agree with the team vision, he didn't like the players they were bringing and he didn't like how people working from the team. I could point out that this was right around the time or right after they brought in guys like MacFarland, Dawson Sprigings and Arik Parnass.

 

[sampollock]

i am not sure what they should do, yes fire MB

but to fix this team? where do you start?

 

[Puck Luck Run Amok]

There were apparently 3 maybe 4 other GMs who were lining up for Tony D. at the TDL. If anyone's looking for morals and good values, the NHL is one of the last places I'd be looking to find them.

People on the current Canadiens roster are probably as, if not more repugnant than DeAngelo.

One I've personally met, who's a fan favorite, would be in the category

 

[Vachon23]

...but you're missing the biggest issue with Montreal. And honestly, you're kinda arguing both for and against Roy.

-That's fine, but having a "plan" in the CHL and the NHL is very different and not inherently transferable. You also haven't articulated what the plan is.

-MacKinnon was the #1 pick by most polled scouts prior to the draft and GM is not an amateur scout. Its not something to hang his hat on.

-Trading up in the vast majority of cases is a bad idea. It's one of those clear data-driven decisions that smart teams know and dumb teams get exploited by. Like, if you're talking about the 2016 draft, the issue is less where they picked but who they picked.

-Radulov would have absolutely hurt the Avs. He could have been the difference between Makar and a Mittelstadt.

-And Roy's job was not in jeopardy. They were already trash for a while and his strategy played a big role in it and he still had a job waiting there for him.

Yes there is a big difference between CHL and NHL, but at least he does have experience in building a team what is better then nothing. For the draft, yes MacKinnon was the #1 prospect but Jones wasn't that far and Colorado needed D at that time and Jones was from Colorado. At that time, they where a lot of people in the Avs orgs that wanted Jones but when Roy arrived, it was MacKinnon and nothing else. For the analytic thing, he didn't like it when he was with the Avs because they where only using the Corsi that he's not a fan but he does use it in JNR now

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yes there is a big difference between CHL and NHL, but at least he does have experience in building a team what is better then nothing. For the draft, yes MacKinnon was the #1 prospect but Jones wasn't that far and Colorado needed D at that time and Jones was from Colorado. At that time, they where a lot of people in the Avs orgs that wanted Jones but when Roy arrived, it was MacKinnon and nothing else.

There are other candidates that have experience building a team. I care a lot more about NHL experience.

And you can't just argue that Roy is a guy that can twist an organizations arm to make one of the most important picks they'll ever make and also argue that he didn't have much say in management decisions.

 

[Vachon23]

There are other candidates that have experience building a team. I care a lot more about NHL experience.

And you can't just argue that Roy is a guy that can twist an organizations arm to make one of the most important picks they'll ever make and also argue that he didn't have much say in management decisions.

I do agree with you on that, but who are the other candidate with that kind experience ? They are not that much options and Roy still have 3 yrs of experience in the NHL.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I do agree with you on that, but who are the other candidate with that kind experience ? They are not that much options and Roy still have 3 yrs of experience in the NHL.

Well, without getting into the stupidity of requiring a bilingual GM, there are a lot of different options.

1) Toronto or Carolina model: a more horizontal organizational chart. Have a bilingual president of hockey ops/GM in the mold of Shanahan or Waddell that will take on a lot of the media-facing responsibilities and hire the best candidate for GM regardless of spoken language. Or do what Carolina does and have different hockey ops heads with a lot more power and influence. Decision making by committee and a lot more data driven.

2) Current Colorado model: Find an intelligent, personable and well liked former player like Sakic (like a Brodeur or a Luongo) that has learned how FOs work. Have him articulate a vision and build a well balanced front office that isn't trying to operate with a hand tied behind their back.

3) Try to poach a current GM: The target is mostly Brisebois in Tampa, but even Dorion might be an interesting choice. He's had some boneheaded moves, but Ottawa is pretty good at drafting and developing, and I'd probably have more faith in what he could do with a staff that didn't need to be paid in IOUs than Roy.

4) Player Agent: This one is pretty obvious.

Plus other more obvious candidates like Madden. My point is, if Montreal is going to demand their GM is bilingual, then they'd better be more creative when looking for one. Creativity is clearly deficient on in the organization, but its necessary. Roy is an obvious candidate. Probably not a great one, but even he's awful, it might have value (Washington and Pittsburgh built cup winners off the backs of being absolutely run into the ground by terrible front offices). But picking Roy seems pretty lazy and uninspired and Montreal can't really afford that.

 

[coozapalooza]

I'm not sure how much I want to rely on believing that Bergevin will get fired in any event, but if I'm assuming he does, I'd really like a replacement that would spark some excitement and enthusiasm about the future. I am not sure any of the poll options do that.

It's funny, because I remember a lot of talk over the years with MB about grinding and being a tough team and just wearing down opponents. Well, that might have only happened here and there, but I'll tell you who is really worn down...me. It sucks, and I was pretty "in" on MB originally, but where we're at now I have just been drained of so much enthusiasm that it feels like a chore to try and remind myself to root hard and stay positive.

I dunno. Maybe if he's fired, someone great will come out of nowhere. But if we pretend the poll is the actual would-be list of replacements...I don't feel much better. That being said, I still support firing him, as I have for years. But I just wish I could feel like we could do better.

 

[swimmer77]

Every time I see the thread title my wishful thinking ignores the "if" at the beginning and I get excited thinking it's already happened.

 

[neopreneur]

Imagine a Roy (GM) + Bouchard (coach) combo... #intense. Anyways...

I think what Therrien and Bergevin did really well in their 1st year was to give the team an identity. The whole "No Excuses" philosophy was cheesy, but if there's 1 thing Therrien is a master of, it's getting a disorganized team to adopt and follow a system... and work hard.

What's the team identity today? I have no clue. We're in No Man's Land and we need a group of people to lead us: players, coaches, management, and executives all inclusively. The current group was collectively given ample time to execute and there's no sign that this will be an elite team any time soon.

I don't have a solution, but I'd like the next group to pitch us something we can rally around... and then they actually do it.
But I think step number 1 is for Molson to invest in hiring someone to replace himself as President (but stay CEO). He needs to be accountable too, as president this team has not progressed. Molson can then focus more on the business side which he seems more interested in anyway (long term business planning/forecasting, fan experience, arena renos, restaurants, etc) and be more of a fan. Gillett was awesome in this regard; let the hockey experts make the hockey decisions.

Long story short, I don't think hiring a new GM is sufficient. We've been down this road many times and it doesn't change anything in the medium/long term.

 

[Vachon23]

Well, without getting into the stupidity of requiring a bilingual GM, there are a lot of different options.

1) Toronto or Carolina model: a more horizontal organizational chart. Have a bilingual president of hockey ops/GM in the mold of Shanahan or Waddell that will take on a lot of the media-facing responsibilities and hire the best candidate for GM regardless of spoken language. Or do what Carolina does and have different hockey ops heads with a lot more power and influence. Decision making by committee and a lot more data driven.

2) Current Colorado model: Find an intelligent, personable and well liked former player like Sakic (like a Brodeur or a Luongo) that has learned how FOs work. Have him articulate a vision and build a well balanced front office that isn't trying to operate with a hand tied behind their back.

3) Try to poach a current GM: The target is mostly Brisebois in Tampa, but even Dorion might be an interesting choice. He's had some boneheaded moves, but Ottawa is pretty good at drafting and developing, and I'd probably have more faith in what he could do with a staff that didn't need to be paid in IOUs than Roy.

4) Player Agent: This one is pretty obvious.

Plus other more obvious candidates like Madden. My point is, if Montreal is going to demand their GM is bilingual, then they'd better be more creative when looking for one. Creativity is clearly deficient on in the organization, but its necessary. Roy is an obvious candidate. Probably not a great one, but even he's awful, it might have value (Washington and Pittsburgh built cup winners off the backs of being absolutely run into the ground by terrible front offices). But picking Roy seems pretty lazy and uninspired and Montreal can't really afford that.

1) You can do it, with naming a GM like by exemple Roy and surrounded him by people with other qualification like Misha Donskov

2) If Brodeur would be interested, he would be my #1 target. He does have all the quality I research and I like his background as an executive. For Luongo, I just thing that he doesn't have enough experience (like Darche).

3) If Dorion is fired (What I actually hope for the Habs not him), I would do anything I could to name him AGM + Head scout (Timmins job). An other name that I could be interested in is Doug Wilson if he's fired. For Brisebois, I just don't think it's possible.

 

[sampollock]

MB deflecting , getting CC in line up,

what a fool

 

[Vachon23]

Imagine a Roy (GM) + Bouchard (coach) combo... #intense. Anyways...

I think what Therrien and Bergevin did really well in their 1st year was to give the team an identity. The whole "No Excuses" philosophy was cheesy, but if there's 1 thing Therrien is a master of, it's getting a disorganized team to adopt and follow a system... and work hard.

What's the team identity today? I have no clue. We're in No Man's Land and we need a group of people to lead us: players, coaches, management, and executives all inclusively. The current group was collectively given ample time to execute and there's no sign that this will be an elite team any time soon.

I don't have a solution, but I'd like the next group to pitch us something we can rally around... and then they actually do it.
But I think step number 1 is for Molson to invest in hiring someone to replace himself as President (but stay CEO). He needs to be accountable too, as president this team has not progressed. Molson can then focus more on the business side which he seems more interested in anyway (long term business planning/forecasting, fan experience, arena renos, restaurants, etc) and be more of a fan. Gillett was awesome in this regard; let the hockey experts make the hockey decisions.

Long story short, I don't think hiring a new GM is sufficient. We've been down this road many times and it doesn't change anything in the medium/long term.

Totally agree with that ! Never understood why they stop the no excuse philosophy, because since that, it's exactly the opposite that they do and they always find excuses

 

[Captain Mountain]

1) You can do it, with naming a GM like by exemple Roy and surrounded him by people with other qualification like Misha Donskov

2) If Brodeur would be interested, he would be my #1 target. He does have all the quality I research and I like his background as an executive. For Luongo, I just thing that he doesn't have enough experience (like Darche).

3) If Dorion is fired (What I actually hope for the Habs not him), I would do anything I could to name him AGM + Head scout (Timmins job). An other name that I could be interested in is Doug Wilson if he's fired. For Brisebois, I just don't think it's possible.

You're missing my point. The only scenario where someone surrounds Roy is if he's not the GM or he doesn't have final say in decision making. And based on everything we've seen Roy do, it seems VERY unlikely that he'd be ok with that. With Roy, if you want him, you're probably going to have to give him full power. I really don't think that's a smart idea.

And Dorion isn't going to get fired. I'm not talking about Dorion as AGM, I'm talking about as GM, but with money to actually hire people and an owner that isn't as bad as Melnyk.

 

[Vachon23]

You're missing my point. The only scenario where someone surrounds Roy is if he's not the GM or he doesn't have final say in decision making. And based on everything we've seen Roy do, it seems VERY unlikely that he'd be ok with that. With Roy, if you want him, you're probably going to have to give him full power. I really don't think that's a smart idea.

And Dorion isn't going to get fired. I'm not talking about Dorion as AGM, I'm talking about as GM, but with money to actually hire people and an owner that isn't as bad as Melnyk.

Based on what ? The guy just want to win, I do think he will surround himself the best way he can to be successful

And yes I don't think he's getting fired either it was more wishful dream then a scenario

 

[HuGort]

Why Damphousse gets no votes? He sounds knowledgeable on RDS

 

[Monsieur Miz]

I see us signing Darche and having another Bergevin-type of guy. Can we stop signing unproven jobbers already?

 

[Vachon23]

Why Damphousse gets no votes? He sounds knowledgeable on RDS

He posses no experience in the hockey management

 

[WeThreeKings]

Why Damphousse gets no votes? He sounds knowledgeable on RDS

Anyone would sound good arguing with idiots.