If it's not Jack Campbell who should be the Leafs new #1 goalie?

[TheRumble]

to be fair, the Devils from the 90's and 2000's built their team around Brodeur and were extremely successful

The 90's Devils were actually a very well rounded team up and down the lineup. Goaltending and defense were their best qualities but they weren't a bad offensive team either. The 1995 and 2003 teams were middling offensive teams but the 2000 team was the 2nd best offense in the league. The 2001 team that made the finals were the best offensive team in the league - 295 goals.

 

[TheRumble]

To the people suggesting Grubauer, please stop, I'd rather stick with Mrazek. Grubauer is awful.

Grubauer was the worst starting goalie in the league this year but last year he was a Vezina candidate behind a pretty stacked Colorado team.

I actually think he's worth a risk if he's cheap as I believe he's somewhere in the middle of that and behind a really good team which we are, he'd be at least .905 level which is really all this team needs.

If the Leafs got .905 goaltending all year this year, they're a 120 point team.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

No you would not rather have Mrazek let's not say things we both know aren't true.

I have little faith in Mrazek, but I have much more faith in him to be average provided he stays healthy. He got hurt in the first game of the season this past year, and was playing catchup the rest of the time while continuing to get hurt. I'm sure Grubauer would provide average goaltending here, but he leaks goals. He gives up awful goals that make you pull your hair out.

 

[LeafEgo]

You will have to expand on Freddy was Jack before Jack: This to say Freddie Andersen was a scapegoat of another kind. Wasn't clutch when he needed to be, etc, etc. And I defended Andersen. But he was absolutely lambasted as not being the guy. He couldn't make one more save, etc, etc.

Jack Campbell despite putting up very good playoffs performances has been criticized exactly the same way. It's not the lack of scoring from our offense, it's Freddie or it's Jack.

On being a backup to Kari Lehtonen and Jonathan Quick. Well...Net management being what it is, when you've got nigh best of era goaltending in front of you, the kid with a lot of potential isn't about to unseat the proven winner. It's another way of saying, but for goalies at the top of the league, Campbell likely gets longer looks earlier in his career.

We can forget about forward depth: Well, we're going to have to find a way. Maybe Douglas is our new 4C. Maybe Kniess makes his debut earlier than expected. Whatever the means is that we begin to fill out our depth, the one thing we can't do is hamstring ourselves by using assets on positions that can be had (ie signed) for free.

With respect to the cap, I agree. But it affects what we can do in terms of signing a goalie. And signing the cheaper of equal options is the only sane action to take. Which brings us back to Gibson; We're thin at depth, compromised at cap, so rather than sign a cheaper Campbell, Husso, whomever, we move out limited assets and take on greater cap?

We have 40M tied up in four forwards: Exactly. See above.

Got it, I think we're on the same page but disagree on Gibsons value versus Campbell.

As you say we will have to do what we can with what we have regarding depth but its a hail mary strategy - similar to what Campbell brings. You don't need much of a GM to play roulette every year but it could work if the stars align.

I would prefer we start trending towards a more balanced team with a 5+ year outlook. To me, Gibson is a step in that direction.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Grubauer was the worst starting goalie in the league this year but last year he was a Vezina candidate behind a pretty stacked Colorado team.

I actually think he's worth a risk if he's cheap as I believe he's somewhere in the middle of that and behind a really good team which we are, he'd be at least .905 level which is really all this team needs.

If the Leafs got .905 goaltending all year this year, they're a 120 point team.

And he allowed more goals against last year than he was expected to. He's the reason they lost in the playoffs.

 

[ULF_55]

Husso
Jones
Wedgewood
DeSmith
McKay
Kallgren
Fleury

or

Trade

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Husso
Jones
Wedgewood
DeSmith
McKay
Kallgren
Fleury

or

Trade




View attachment 560096

2 of those are options the rest are, or backups

 

[NinjaKick]

The 90's Devils were actually a very well rounded team up and down the lineup. Goaltending and defense were their best qualities but they weren't a bad offensive team either. The 1995 and 2003 teams were middling offensive teams but the 2000 team was the 2nd best offense in the league. The 2001 team that made the finals were the best offensive team in the league - 295 goals.

the Devils were a well rounded team for sure, but with that said, they played a trap game to support Brodeur... a defence first mentalitiy. also, they took advantage of Brodeurs puck handling ability, when a team would dump the puck, Brodeur would come out and kill the forecheck and move the puck up the ice.. sometimes you could even call him a third defenceman.. that's how good he was... hence the trapezoid.

My point is, the Devils played a team game to support their goalie... and were extremely suucessful

 

[Ziggdiezan]

It’s kind of the norm though. We don’t realize it but most teams 4th lines are junk and prospectd
Hoping to catch fire.

Boston plays lazar and foligno
Colorado helm
Tampa rielly smith/bellmare
Colorado helm
Rangers hunt.
Fla Thornton.

Most bottom 6 are pretty bad.

Definitely agree, most 4th lines are pretty much plugs but 3rd lines not so much. Lots more variability across the 3rd lines in the NHL

 

[Legion34]

Definitely agree, most 4th lines are pretty much plugs but 3rd lines not so much. Lots more variability across the 3rd lines in the NHL

Sure but that depends on how you play your lines.

Our 3rd line had nylander on it if we are being technical.

Most 8th- 12th forwards are pretty replaceable.

Matthews. Marner. Nylander. Tavares. Bunting. Kerfoot. Kampf is pretty good.

Heck spezza/blackwood/engvall/Clifford/simmonds is pretty good for bottom liners

 

[saltming]

Building a team from the net out is actually a very old idea in hockey and it has never produced a Cup champ. Several teams have gotten really close but these goalie centric teams always run into a well rounded team that ends up beating them.

2021 Habs, 2014 Rangers, 2003 Ducks, 2004 Flames, 1999 Sabres are examples of such teams that have made the Cup finals.

If an .910 caliber goalie can steal 1 or 2 games per series for you, that's good enough to win the Cup if you are a well rounded team. If he gets hot, even better, but Cup winning teams do not lean heavily on their goalies. Tampa just happens to have a goalie they can heavily lean on AND also are a well rounded team.

What about a quick lead kings or a Brodeur lead devils? Both those teams were defensive stalwarts with game breaking goalies that won multiple cups.

End of the day there are several ways to win and it's about what gives the best chance to win and building from the net out usually is the way. You still have to find and develop that goalie though, so there is still luck and skill in the mix

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Sure but that depends on how you play your lines.

Our 3rd line had nylander on it if we are being technical.

Most 8th- 12th forwards are pretty replaceable.

Matthews. Marner. Nylander. Tavares. Bunting. Kerfoot. Kampf is pretty good.

Heck spezza/blackwood/engvall/Clifford/simmonds is pretty good for bottom liners

Ya definitely Nylander being on the 3rd line would be way better than normal bottom 6. Also means the 2nd line would have not the greatest wingers for a top 6 though

I would say the majority of those guys are way over the hill and I would rather have some younger guys with a little more energy.

In general depth scoring has been an issue for the leafs the last couple of years and it seemed to be even worse with the proposed lineup for next year, would you agree?

 

[makbeer]

Building a team from the net out is actually a very old idea in hockey and it has never produced a Cup champ. Several teams have gotten really close but these goalie centric teams always run into a well rounded team that ends up beating them.

2021 Habs, 2014 Rangers, 2003 Ducks, 2004 Flames, 1999 Sabres are examples of such teams that have made the Cup finals.

If an .910 caliber goalie can steal 1 or 2 games per series for you, that's good enough to win the Cup if you are a well rounded team. If he gets hot, even better, but Cup winning teams do not lean heavily on their goalies. Tampa just happens to have a goalie they can heavily lean on AND also are a well rounded team.

You're kinda backwards on this.

Building a team from the net out doesn't mean you invest 10 mill in a goalie and call it a day.

It means your team starts with stability in net and builds from there.

Which DOES work, as over 80% of recent cup winners drafted and developed their goalies.

Unlike here, where goaltending appears to be the last thing that matters. Teams who try to find band-aid solutions in net almost always flop.

Unless of course you're the Avs who are so good I could win a cup with them, but they are obviously an outlier and the Leafs aren't reaching that level.

 

[Racer88]

You're kinda backwards on this.

Building a team from the net out doesn't mean you invest 10 mill in a goalie and call it a day.

It means your team starts with stability in net and builds from there.

Which DOES work, as over 80% of recent cup winners drafted and developed their goalies.

Unlike here, where goaltending appears to be the last thing that matters. Teams who try to find band-aid solutions in net almost always flop.

Unless of course you're the Avs who are so good I could win a cup with them, but they are obviously an outlier and the Leafs aren't reaching that level.

Yup and the question is how did the Avs get so good and how many years is it going to take to fix the Leafs

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

If given the choice between using assets to move mrazek and using assets acquiring Grubauer, or pairing mrazek with another 1b and rolling the dice it would be a long conversation about opportunity cost with my group.
Just because mrazek sucked this year doesn’t mean he’s going to suck this year, same goes for gru. Except he makes 2.1m more for twice as long, cutting into the extensions for our forwards.
Gru sucks and this team is cooked, mrazek sucks and you bury him/ use his short term contract as cap ballast in trade and find another goalie

More responding generally to the Mrazek question, but there's simply no way to bring back Mrazek for a number of reasons:

1. Everyone saw his style of play didn't match Toronto's playing style. We're shaky mentally; we need a cucumber in net, not a pomegranate. I think Mrazek's style would better fit a rebuilding team that could benefit from the wild energy of an aggressive goalie.

2. The Toronto media environment. Say he starts the season with a bad game. Same awkward questions as last year. Another bad game. He's not doing interviews. It's already a catastrophe. First year was tragedy, second year is farce. While I think you could try running back a broken goalie in a less media-focused environment, it's a recipe for disaster here. It's also more difficult to fix a problem in the regular season than the off-season.

3. I haven't really done the research on this, but I think Mrazek had pretty good analytics for a goaltender, leading to his signing. I do wonder if someone like Charron championed Mrazek, and for that, he was fired. So Mrazek lost his raison d'etre in management. All just speculation though!

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

 

[Tarmore]

Colorado actually only spent 5.5m on goaltending this year, which is the same as the Leafs this year, and less than the Leafs any other year with this core.

Leafs cap allocated to goaltending:

2016-2017: 5.80m
2017-2018: 5.85m
2018-2019: 5.70m
2019-2020: 5.70m
2020-2021: 6.65m
2021-2022: 5.45m

Never seen this information laid out this way before.

Pretty clearly shows where the Leafs are comfortable/budgeted for goalies. Somewhere between 5.5-6.5 looks to be their sweet spot.

 

[Nylanderthal]

More responding generally to the Mrazek question, but there's simply no way to bring back Mrazek for a number of reasons:

1. Everyone saw his style of play didn't match Toronto's playing style. We're shaky mentally; we need a cucumber in net, not a pomegranate. I think Mrazek's style would better fit a rebuilding team that could benefit from the wild energy of an aggressive goalie.

2. The Toronto media environment. Say he starts the season with a bad game. Same awkward questions as last year. Another bad game. He's not doing interviews. It's already a catastrophe. First year was tragedy, second year is farce. While I think you could try running back a broken goalie in a less media-focused environment, it's a recipe for disaster here. It's also more difficult to fix a problem in the regular season than the off-season.

3. I haven't really done the research on this, but I think Mrazek had pretty good analytics for a goaltender, leading to his signing. I do wonder if someone like Charron championed Mrazek, and for that, he was fired. So Mrazek lost his raison d'etre in management. All just speculation though!

Not disagreeing with much of this, I’m just not completely tied to the “have to dump at all costs” camp. I think he’s an easier move than what’s suggested here by the doomers and on the main boards, but if i happen to be wrong and he’s going to cost a kings ransom to move I think the alternative needs to be discussed

 

[Tarmore]

I have little faith in Mrazek, but I have much more faith in him to be average provided he stays healthy. He got hurt in the first game of the season this past year, and was playing catchup the rest of the time while continuing to get hurt. I'm sure Grubauer would provide average goaltending here, but he leaks goals. He gives up awful goals that make you pull your hair out.

He sure did give-up some bad ones this past season.

If he is here next, we have to hope he can get back to average

 

[Legion34]

Yup and the question is how did the Avs get so good and how many years is it going to take to fix the Leafs

Well if you ask the coach. It was by watching the leafs

 

[Nylanderthal]

Well if you ask the coach. It was by watching the leafs

Crazy how other teams like our team more than our own “fans”

 

[ULF_55]

2 of those are options the rest are, or backups

I know it is comfortable in the box.

I want a G class but I can only afford a Rav 4 Hybrid.

 

[ACC1224]

Well if you ask the coach. It was by watching the leafs

 

[WTFMAN99]

I imagine Sorokin, Shesterkin, Vas and Helley are all unavailable in trade?

If that's the case, we're rolling the dice year to year for the most part. I'm a big believer in revitalizing Blackwood...but would want proper support behind him.

 

[Racer88]

Well if you ask the coach. It was by watching the leafs

Please explain what that really means