I have serious concerns for next year (2023-24)

[leafsfan5]

I would prefer we climb the ranking by getting better not because of Bergeron and Krejci finally retiring (Bergeron Selke, Krejci also solid season with Pasta getting 60 on si wing, plus record-breaking regular season), they probably could keep going for a couple of years more.

Tbh does it really matter? Whether we get better by improving or by others becoming worse, the net result will be similar

Washington didn’t get better in 2018, the Pens slowed down and a window of opportunity opened

 

[notbias]

I‘m thinking more along the lines that Max might be more concerned with winning and Matthews et al may put a damper on that spirit

What has Max ever won that makes you think that?

 

[Nineteen67]

What has Max ever won that makes you think that?

World Juniors. And his upbringing

 

[mjd1001]

Most fans, even on here, do not tie their personal happiness and success to the success of the team. They do not require a Stanley Cup every season to get on with their lives. Most fans watch the game as a distraction from other things, or a way to wind down at the end of the day. The entertainment that comes from the success is appreciated, and those fans certainly would like the team to win the Cup, but sometimes watching their favourite team is just an escape, and having a competitive team in the regular season make that escape enjoyable and it goes on much longer through the long winter months than the playoffs do.

Something I beleive that is not exactly what you are saying, but I can relate to your point of view:

Enjoying a season in most sports comes down to 2 things:

1.) You win the championship -OR-
2.) you exceed 'expecations'

The tough part for the Leafs right now is the expectations with most fans are that they are 'good enough' in terms of talent to make/win the cup. So #2 is a tough thing to acheive anymore. They are in a 'win the cup or bust' mode and that is tough for many fans.

Right now it is more 'fun' to be a fan of a team like the Devlis, Sens, Sabres. Are they as good as the leafs? no (well, we might have a discussion about the Devils this year), but they are all coming off bad stretches and improving.

Once you get close to the 'mountain peak' of a championship level team but you don't acheive it, being a fan can become a game of 'beating expections' and that, honestly, is not that fun when expectations are so high.

The days of a loss being followed by "It's ok, they are young, they are getting better".....those days are replaced by dread and worry after many losses, and even angst and anxiety after a 'too close' of a win vs an 'inferior team'.

Not everyone is like that, but from reading the forums, many people are like that (more than we probably want to admit). The ultimate goal is winning the cup, and this team is closer to that than they were 3, 4, and 5 years ago. BUT, it was almost more fun to be a FAN of this team 3-5 years ago when the trajectory was up and there were less expectations.

Don't have to look any farther than across the Lake to Buffalo. Bills fans are filled with a lot more of that same angst and anxiety and the seaons are less 'fun' than they were 2-3 years ago, and on the other side of it, Buffalo Fans are much more excited and having fun with the Sabres, who aren't that good yet but finally seem to be clearly 'on the way up'.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Lines, as always, will be fluid and will change from game to game, and as the season goes. Typically, 25% of the roster that starts game 1, is no longer with the team by the playoffs. Being focused on lines, and what the team is... is entertaining, but that's about it.

We don't even know if further changes will be made, or if there will be more signings. Chances are, we are still going to sign one forward, one D, and one G. How that impacts that lineups, is TBD, and that is without us making a trade at some point... which is always possible before the season.

I'm not particularly concerned with this team as a regular season team. I don't know how the new pieces will work, but we've got a team good enough to compete for first in the division, with some injury luck, and a fully healthy Matthews. I'd like to see Marner shoot more this coming year, like he did the year before. Even Bunting was down in EV goals last year, from 21 the year prior, to 16. When Matthew's linemates are shooting, or scoring more, it opens up space for him as well.

Plus, I do hope they separate Nylander/Tavares. The team is better with Matthews/Nylander Tavares/Marner.... though if they want to try other options, like Nylander on a third line... that's fine too... but Nylander/Tavares needs to be a thing of the past.

I'm not a fan of the Domi or Klingberg signings TBH, but they are Leafs now, and I hope that they succeed, and prove me wrong.

I'm a fan of Morgan Rielly and his inspirational play from last year's playoffs. Every other thing (GM, Coach, Equipment Manager, New Players, etc.) is a prove to me situation. I'll always be a fan of the team, but I would love a team full of Morgan Rielly-types to be honest.

 

[Sypher04]

You’re equating playoff results to regular season to make your argument here. I don’t agree with that and so the point you are making about participation trophies does not sit well with me even if it makes sense from your perspective.

I’m not equating regular season and playoffs at all actually. I’ve already said quite early and multiple times within this thread that playoff results are more important than season results. The point I’m making about participation trophies may not sit well to you, but it’s based on Canadian Finn’s premise, not mine. I’m just following it to the logical conclusion which he dislikes because it’s ruins whatever argument he thought he had.

you get it.

participation trophies are for those who value regular season success.

but as you said, not much point in trying to get sypher to understand.

As Mr Weir sings: You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know.

If I’m allegedly the one who doesn’t understand, care to explain to me how getting props for losing in round 3 is anything but a participation trophy? Only 1 team wins, this is fact. How close they got varies but every other team failed to do so, also fact. It’s your premise that participation trophies are bad. I’m just debating within the parameters you set. I’m not even a proponent personally that participation trophies are always negative. In fact, without you bringing them up I’d never be talking about participation trophies because the concept isn’t something I tend to think about.

Tell that to Florida who needed the last place team to win a game on the road in the final week of the season just to make the playoffs.

As for the TS. Miss the playoffs??? Come on man! LMFAO.

Outliers don’t change what is generally true.

 

[notbias]

World Juniors. And his upbringing

What has Tie ever won? Why his upbringing?

If World Juniors are the requirement, Tavares should be much more of an influence.

Nic Petan should have helped us from the same U20 team...

 

[Niagara Bill]

Something I beleive that is not exactly what you are saying, but I can relate to your point of view:

Enjoying a season in most sports comes down to 2 things:

1.) You win the championship
2.) you exceed 'expecations'

The tough part for the Leafs right now is the expectations with most fans are that they are 'good enough' in terms of talent to make/win the cup. So #2 is a tough thing to acheive anymore. They are in a 'win the cup or bust' mode and that is tough for many fans.

Right now it is more 'fun' to be a fan of a team like the Devlis, Sens, Sabres. Are they as good as the leafs? no (well, we might have a discussion about the Devils this year), but they are all coming off bad stretches and improving.

Once you get close to the 'mountain peak' of a championship level team but you don't acheive it, being a fan can become a game of 'beating expections' and that, honestly, is not that fun.

The days of a loss being followed by "It's ok, they are young, they are getting better".....those days are replaced by dread and worry after many losses, and even angst and anxiety after a 'too close' of a win vs an 'inferior team'.

Not everyone is like that, but from reading the forums, many people are like that (more than we probably want to admit). The ultimate goal is winning the cup, and this team is closer to that than they were 3, 4, and 5 years ago. BUT, it was almost more fun to be a FAN of this team 3-5 years ago when the trajectory was up and there were less expectations.

Don't have to look any farther than across the Lake to Buffalo. Bills fans are filled with a lot more of that same angst and anxiety and the seaons are less 'fun' than they were 2-3 years ago, and on the other side of it, Buffalo Fans are much more excited and having fun with the Sabres, who aren't that good yet but finally seem to be clearly 'on the way up'.

I see what you are saying but what often matters is your team playing to its capability. The Bills were slightly lower but still great season, the Sabres out performed expectations and Dan's were happy, and the Leafs...well let's just say that AM, MM, and a few others were so underwhelming fans hated the season, even after winning a round. The 2 big guns failed to match expectations, AGAIN.
So, the Bills are ready to strike again, their leader JA is courageous, the Sabres look to be growing, The Leafs...many cannot even decide if AM, MM, should be here. JA for Bills earned his huge money, AM and MM (playoffs) did not.
56 years and our big guys had no spine. Morgan sure did. Go back and watch YouTube of 93 team and see why fans loved Gilmore etc. AM didn't give 50% what Gilmore did.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Well in your scenario we are running one of the best top 6s and one of the worst bottom 6s.

Assuming our bottom 6 in your scenario is:

Lafferty - Kampf - Jarnkrok
Knies - Holmberg - Reaves

That's bad, for sure one of the worst in the league.

You can't have Knies playing 3LW as that is probably a shutdown line.

I am advocating for spreading out talent with something like this:

Domi/Knies - Matthews - Marner
Bertuzzi - Tavares - Jarnkrok
Knies/Domi - Holmberg - Nylander
Lafferty - Kampf - Reaves

That forward squad looks A LOT better.

But It's one of the worst bottom 6's.

The problem is ENTIRELY 3rd line center.

There is nothing wrong with Knies and Jarnkrok as your 3rd line wingers especially since we know they can both jump into the top 6 if they need to.

The problem is Kampf is the 3rd line center.

They need a guy like Backlund as the 3rd line center.

Or Towes if he can play.

There would be nothing wrong with Lafferty Kampf and Reaves as the 4th line.

Sure Lafferty Kampf and Reaves wouldn't score much but it wouldn't need to.

When people say we have the worst bottom 6 in the league what they actually mean is we have no 3rd line center, because that's the real issue that's the missing piece.

And even that might not be true because we don't know that Holmberg can't do it.

 

[ACC1224]

It's amazing the lengths some are going to throw shade at the new GM before they've even played a game.

Bunny's need to either join Dubas or let him go, he's not coming back.

 

[Smif]

I'm also not a fan of our new defense and I really don't like that we have zero control over Matthews now.

I love our forward group, our top 6 has never been better and we have some jam BEFORE the season starts, not justtrying to plug that hole at the TDL, like usual.

 

[Racer88]

I'm also not a fan of our new defense and I really don't like that we have zero control over Matthews now.

I love our forward group, our top 6 has never been better and we have some jam BEFORE the season starts, not justtrying to plug that hole at the TDL, like usual.

Zero control over Matthews, Marner or Tavares

 

[notbias]

Zero control over Matthews, Marner or Tavares

most teams have 0 control over their stars... we are not in an ideal situation, but NMCs are not unique to our team... they are all over the NHL. Some teams have half a team with NTCs/NMCs.

 

[thewave]

There is no point in having concerns right now. As it stands we pretty much can't and won't win this season. Next season we may have a very different looking team. I am more or less hoping for some good entertainment value.

 

[Cleetus]

It's amazing the lengths some are going to throw shade at the new GM before they've even played a game.

Bunny's need to either join Dubas or let him go, he's not coming back.

its so pity and sad lol, I mean the pens board is just a click away for those that want to put A GM over the team

 

[mikeyz]

It's amazing the lengths some are going to throw shade at the new GM before they've even played a game.

Bunny's need to either join Dubas or let him go, he's not coming back.

It really is incredible isn’t it??

 

[Ianturnedbull]

It's amazing the lengths some are going to throw shade at the new GM before they've even played a game.

Bunny's need to either join Dubas or let him go, he's not coming back.

haha. seriously i thought the Karlsson trade would bring over quite a few, but they keep hanging around...so they can rip Lou one last time.

 

[Racer88]

most teams have 0 control over their stars... we are not in an ideal situation, but NMCs are not unique to our team... they are all over the NHL. Some teams have half a team with NTCs/NMCs.

I agree that nmc are common place but when you have 3 of them making those crazy dollars we have no choice to give them what ever they want or they will walk for nothing is not a great place to be in. I have argued for a while now how badly screwed up our cap allotment has been and now we are seeing a secondary consequence of it.
All this would be easier to stomach if we had had any sort of playoff success but we have not.

 

[Menzinger]

When looking at the roster, Liljegren is such a huge x factor.

He's shown the ability for streches where you can easily see him turn into a top flight 2 way defensemen but then other stretches where it's questionable if he should even be a regular in the lineup.

Liljegren, Knies and Woll are three players that all have tremendous upside but who really knows what you'll get from them next season and their overall performance could dictate just how good of a team we are.

I have the most confidence in Knies hitting those elevated expectations of taking the next step. Less sure about the other two

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I would prefer we climb the ranking by getting better not because of Bergeron and Krejci finally retiring (Bergeron Selke, Krejci also solid season with Pasta getting 60 on si wing, plus record-breaking regular season), they probably could keep going for a couple of years more.

Who gives a f*** How or why it gets done?

Just get it done

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Who gives a f*** How or why it gets done?

Just get it done

Seriously. I don't need other teams to be at their best to be satisfied with any on ice success. God knows teams that have beaten us in recent years aren't putting an asterisk next to series wins because we were missing key pieces due to suspension or injury. I hope Boston falls hard without their top 2 centres from last season, Bobrovsky turns back into a pumpkin for Florida, and Tampa continues to age and decline. If the Leafs win the division because the teams who kept beating us for it have gotten worse and the teams behind us aren't ready to truly contend yet, who cares? As Dom Toretto says:

 

[Fogelhund]

Who gives a f*** How or why it gets done?

Just get it done

Exactly... imagine setting yourself to be unhappy, even if we do win?

 

[Nineteen67]

Seriously. I don't need other teams to be at their best to be satisfied with any on ice success. God knows teams that have beaten us in recent years aren't putting an asterisk next to series wins because we were missing key pieces due to suspension or injury. I hope Boston falls hard without their top 2 centres from last season, Bobrovsky turns back into a pumpkin for Florida, and Tampa continues to age and decline. If the Leafs win the division because the teams who kept beating us for it have gotten worse and the teams behind us aren't ready to truly contend yet, who cares? As Dom Toretto says:

This might be the only chance they’ll ever have to win the division. Oddly enough they may not be favourites to win RD 1 unless they draw a team like Pittsburgh.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It sucked worse. Much worse.

Don't get me wrong, there was very brief elation about owning the Sens, but then losing to the underdog Canes led by two backup goalies in a series where we went 0-3 in OT left a worse taste in people's mouth than losing to TB/Bos in round 1 did. (well the 4-1 thing aside).


You can see this for yourself btw. Did you feel better about the past season than the season before? After all, we did beat TB this time....

I think part of it is how the elimination went.

In 2022, we played pretty well but lost.

In 2023 we didn't play anywhere near as well in the series we lost, which seems to have negated that we played better in the first round than in the first round in 2022.

2022 left a better taste than 2023.

 

[notDatsyuk]

When 1/2 a teams Salary Cap is locked up in just 4 forwards and 3 X $11 mil players have full NMC that can't and wont go anywhere leaving only Nylander as a potential tradeable player of that core.. If you add Morgan Rielly the next highest paid player $7.5 mil AAV with a full NMC as well for the next 4 years that =$48 mil of an $83.5 mil cap = Approximately 57% of your team locked in stone.

Treliving is left with 43% remaining cap space and 15 players outside those 5 core above to put him mark in the team. Options are limited because cap space is limited.

Also not much in the farm system because of all the desperation trades of picks and prospects trying to salvage the mess he created.

We have basically a full set of picks for the next few years, but unless we use them in trades, they won't do us much good for a while.