Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

[Hobnobs]

The bolded part -

That's nice that he helped his dad with construction work. Sure. But don't you think claiming they would tear a new ahole to most guys in today's NHL is a little ridiculous?

Today's athletes are perfectly conditioned (well, at least most of them). Their conditioning is miles better than the one of the athletes of previous eras. I mean they smoked for god's sake.

As for the OP and the following Chara vs Hulls discussion, I agree with what many posters in this thread already said - no way Hull's slap shot was that fast.

No. Way.

Saying miles is extreme hyperbole. Is Ovechkin better conditioned than Espo, most likely yea and maybe even by a mile. Is he better conditioned than Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe? Maybe by a slim margin.

 

[Positive]

No, he means heavy ball. I've hit against numerous pitchers of the relatively same height and weight who threw nearly the same velocity and generally straight. One guy's fastball almost ripped the bat out of my hands it was so heavy. Other pitchers' fastballs felt so light when you'd make contact that sometimes you hardly felt the ball hit the bat. Now part of that is making contact with the sweet spot on the bat, but there was a definitive difference in the heaviness of their pitch.

I guess the argument is, does the amount of torque a moving object possesses, affect the amount of impact it delivers? For objects with this little mass? You figure it must, in at least some minute way. Its an additional force being exerted on a target. Does it affect the target in a noticeable way, though. We're talking about fairly small objects, free spinning (not powered by a motor etc.)

In boxing/martial arts, it's sometimes claimed that adding rotation to your fist at the end of a punch increases it's power. Is it because of the rotation itself, or is it simply because you are engaging more muscles in your extension...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shoulder Rotation

I guess the argument is, does the amount of torque a moving object possesses, affect the amount of impact it delivers? For objects with this little mass? You figure it must, in at least some minute way. Its an additional force being exerted on a target. Does it affect the target in a noticeable way, though. We're talking about fairly small objects, free spinning (not powered by a motor etc.)

In boxing/martial arts, it's sometimes claimed that adding rotation to your fist at the end of a punch increases it's power. Is it because of the rotation itself, or is it simply because you are engaging more muscles in your extension...

Perhaps shoulder rotation in boxing? Your analogy is vague.

 

[billybudd]

I guess the argument is, does the amount of torque a moving object possesses, affect the amount of impact it delivers? For objects with this little mass? You figure it must, in at least some minute way. Its an additional force being exerted on a target. Does it affect the target in a noticeable way, though. We're talking about fairly small objects, free spinning (not powered by a motor etc.)

In boxing/martial arts, it's sometimes claimed that adding rotation to your fist at the end of a punch increases it's power. Is it because of the rotation itself, or is it simply because you are engaging more muscles in your extension...

No, that's something different. Rotating your fist forces you to use more muscles in your back vs slapping punches. Try throwing a punch against air both ways and pay attention to what all you feel activating in your back.

With a puck, think of it this way: if you fall off something, you're supposed to roll when you hit the ground so some of the force gets transfered into lateral motion instead of all of it going straight into your muscles and bones. Puck works the same way. A lot of spin, it'll hit something and kind of glance off. Little spin and it just thuds right into the target. If the target's glass, this difference is really, really audible.

 

[Killion]

Regardless of the science & conjecture, having witnessed & experienced it first hand, I can tell you a spinning puck, thats gonna hurt. Angulation, a number of factors come into play. Heavy shots a HEAVY shot.

 

[BobbyAwe]

I don't know about the 118mph shot, but I will say one thing I personally believe Hull would have the hardest shot in the game today.

And Jesse Owens would still be the fastest sprinter in the world

 

[BudMovin*]

Sorry, 118 is impossible with a wooden stick. Not saying he wasn't head and shoulders above everyone else in that era, but the devastation is exaggerated because the lack of pads goalies and players had. Chara would kill people back then with his shot on a game by game basis. People always over-exaggerate past feats. Players are so much bigger, stronger, and have so much better equipment today.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sorry, 118 is impossible with a wooden stick. Not saying he wasn't head and shoulders above everyone else in that era, but the devastation is exaggerated because the lack of pads goalies and players had. Chara would kill people back then with his shot on a game by game basis. People always over-exaggerate past feats. Players are so much bigger, stronger, and have so much better equipment today.

Bobby Hull had a stick that would have been blatantly illegal today - both because of the curved "banana blade" and because of how heavy it was. I think it's reasonable to think that he would have the hardest shot today if he were allowed to keep his illegal stick.

Composite sticks help much more with wrist and snap shots than they do with slap shots.

 

[BudMovin*]

Bobby Hull had a stick that would have been blatantly illegal today - both because of the curved "banana blade" and because of how heavy it was. I think it's reasonable to think that he would have the hardest shot today if he were allowed to keep his illegal stick.

Composite sticks help much more with wrist and snap shots than they do with slap shots.

How would curve make the shot harder? Wouldn't it just make the shot less predictable/easier to mask the velocity? Also, a heavier stick has more mass (Thus force behind it), but you can't move it as fast. I think form and strength mean a lot more than stick weight. Doubt Hull is as strong/massive as Chara or Weber at sub 200lbs. The more weight behind the shot, harder it is going to be (assuming the same strength and form are used).

I go back to the exaggerating things of times past... Mickey Mantle supposedly hit a 643 foot home run in 1960 which is the furthest estimated distance ever. This was in an era before 100mph fastballs, steroids and weight training. If bonds, Big Mac or Sosa couldn't get one even close to that, there is no way he did.

 

[Hanji]

Bobby Hull had a stick that would have been blatantly illegal today - both because of the curved "banana blade" and because of how heavy it was. I think it's reasonable to think that he would have the hardest shot today if he were allowed to keep his illegal stick.

Composite sticks help much more with wrist and snap shots than they do with slap shots.

I doubt it.

This article from 1965 says Hull's slapshot was 95 mph and fastest in the league. If this figure is correct, shots were significantly slower back then. Then again, it says his wrist shot was 105mph.
If anything this proves shot measurements were way way off.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1076832/index.htm

 

[Canadiens1958]

Back Then

Sorry, 118 is impossible with a wooden stick. Not saying he wasn't head and shoulders above everyone else in that era, but the devastation is exaggerated because the lack of pads goalies and players had. Chara would kill people back then with his shot on a game by game basis. People always over-exaggerate past feats. Players are so much bigger, stronger, and have so much better equipment today.

Not with stick length limited to 58". All the modern advantages are more than neutralized.

 

[BudMovin*]

Not with stick length limited to 58". All the modern advantages are more than neutralized.

It was implied if he got to use his equipment from today...He is too tall to use a stick that length and have proper form.

 

[BraveCanadian]

How would curve make the shot harder? Wouldn't it just make the shot less predictable/easier to mask the velocity? Also, a heavier stick has more mass (Thus force behind it), but you can't move it as fast. I think form and strength mean a lot more than stick weight. Doubt Hull is as strong/massive as Chara or Weber at sub 200lbs. The more weight behind the shot, harder it is going to be (assuming the same strength and form are used).

I am pretty sure you generally try to hit the puck with your stick, not yourself.

I would think that form and the weight of the stick itself is much more important than the weight of the person behind the stick.

I also wonder if the extreme curve on Hull's stick actually gave it another form of whip.

I go back to the exaggerating things of times past... Mickey Mantle supposedly hit a 643 foot home run in 1960 which is the furthest estimated distance ever. This was in an era before 100mph fastballs, steroids and weight training. If bonds, Big Mac or Sosa couldn't get one even close to that, there is no way he did.

That estimate measurement was done in 1985 if I recall...

 

[BudMovin*]

I am pretty sure you generally try to hit the puck with your stick, not yourself.

I would think that form and the weight of the stick itself is much more important than the weight of the person behind the stick.

I also wonder if the extreme curve on Hull's stick actually gave it another form of whip.



That estimate measurement was done in 1985 if I recall...

More than composite would?

 

[Pominville Knows]

More than composite would?

Yeah that can certainly be questioned. The only reason that pee-wee players sometimes are told that they can use a wooden stick instead of a composite one to save their parents money, is becouse they cant use the new sticks properly anyhow when taking a slapper. Adult players break those sticks on a regular basis not becouse they're especially fragile, but becouse they bend them into bananas on the ice when they take their slappers and get heavy rewards for it.
Maybe composite is most beneficiary for people without a massive shot, maybe guys like Hull and MacInnis could really fight through the wood. Perhaps even with some gains to it becouse of the weight.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Assumptions

It was implied if he got to use his equipment from today...He is too tall to use a stick that length and have proper form.

What was implied is that Chara would do serious damage when in fact test conditions should never be interpreted this way.

Test conditions do not feature opposition players impeding the shot attempt. Chara may have a nice "test number". So what. His body position, foot work, wind-up and execution are way too slow, lacking fluidity to be effective under game conditions with few exceptions.

So give him all the modern equipment and rule advantages the weaknesses remain the same. If anything they are masked a bit by a "test number" that is not supported by game results like Bobby Hull's "test number" was.

 

[habsfanatics*]

There's no way he hit 118mph, zero chance, it's unlikely he ever hit 100mph.

 

[BudMovin*]

What was implied is that Chara would do serious damage when in fact test conditions should never be interpreted this way.

Test conditions do not feature opposition players impeding the shot attempt. Chara may have a nice "test number". So what. His body position, foot work, wind-up and execution are way too slow, lacking fluidity to be effective under game conditions with few exceptions.

So give him all the modern equipment and rule advantages the weaknesses remain the same. If anything they are masked a bit by a "test number" that is not supported by game results like Bobby Hull's "test number" was.

There was a lot more time and space back then to get off such a shot. The game is a lot more micromanaged now.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1192234/

 

[mbhhofr]

There was a lot more time and space back then to get off such a shot. The game is a lot more micromanaged now.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1192234/

Advantage Hull.

 

[Hobnobs]

How would curve make the shot harder? Wouldn't it just make the shot less predictable/easier to mask the velocity? Also, a heavier stick has more mass (Thus force behind it), but you can't move it as fast. I think form and strength mean a lot more than stick weight. Doubt Hull is as strong/massive as Chara or Weber at sub 200lbs. The more weight behind the shot, harder it is going to be (assuming the same strength and form are used).

I go back to the exaggerating things of times past... Mickey Mantle supposedly hit a 643 foot home run in 1960 which is the furthest estimated distance ever. This was in an era before 100mph fastballs, steroids and weight training. If bonds, Big Mac or Sosa couldn't get one even close to that, there is no way he did.

Wouldn't this be what people call argument from adverse consequences? Even though there is no hard evidence, a certain conclusion is thought to be true because the alternative seems unlikely.

 

[BudMovin*]

Wouldn't this be what people call argument from adverse consequences? Even though there is no hard evidence, a certain conclusion is thought to be true because the alternative seems unlikely.

I just don't think he could have a 119mph slapshot, have a backhand at 95mph and a wrister that's 105mph. Seems highly unlikely.

 

[Thesensation19*]

Wikipedia States...
season. By his final NHL season, he had scored 50 goals or more a remarkable five times. This was only one time less than all other players in NHL history combined up until that point in time.

His slapshot was once clocked at 95 mph (152.9 km/h) and he could skate 29.7 mph (47.8 km/h).[1] During his drive to be the first to eclipse the 50 goal mark, Bobby's wrist shot was claimed to be harder than his slapshot.[2]

 

[habsfanatics*]

Wikipedia States...
season. By his final NHL season, he had scored 50 goals or more a remarkable five times. This was only one time less than all other players in NHL history combined up until that point in time.

His slapshot was once clocked at 95 mph (152.9 km/h) and he could skate 29.7 mph (47.8 km/h).[1] During his drive to be the first to eclipse the 50 goal mark, Bobby's wrist shot was claimed to be harder than his slapshot.[2]

95mph is on the money, only way he hit 118 mph is if whatever they used for measuring the speed was mis-calibrated and off by 20 mph, anyone that believes these tales are foolish IMO, a 95 mph backhand, yeah right, the whole myth isn't based on anything even remotely close to
Reality.

 

[Hanji]

What was implied is that Chara would do serious damage when in fact test conditions should never be interpreted this way.

Test conditions do not feature opposition players impeding the shot attempt. Chara may have a nice "test number". So what. His body position, foot work, wind-up and execution are way too slow, lacking fluidity to be effective under game conditions with few exceptions.

So give him all the modern equipment and rule advantages the weaknesses remain the same. If anything they are masked a bit by a "test number" that is not supported by game results like Bobby Hull's "test number" was.

By today's game conditions you are correct. However in 1965's longer-shift, less intense, slower pace, more open game, Chara would've had the time to wind-up a big slapper every now and then.

Chara slap shot + goalie with no head protection = not good.

 

[Averick*]

119.5 sounds like a made up number. It's like someone almost said "120 mph!!!" but then realized it would be too far-fetched. Well, psychological quantifications aside, 119.5 is just as absurd.