Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

[LeBlondeDemon10]

No I'm saying that Bolt's half-way split is a faster pace than what football players are alleged to have ran in a 40 yard dash once one accounts for the roughly 0.2-0.25 second "bonus" the football players get from having stopwatches involved rather than FAT, and the same is true of many other sprinters.

With all their equipment on I presume?

 

[Epsilon]

With all their equipment on I presume?

40 yard dash times are not run in full equipment, they are run wearing running apparel. There's plenty of videos of the Combine and other similar events online online.

 

[maple8]

Sure. Its something obviously Goaltenders are more than familiar with, something you almost have to experience to understand, and a painful lesson it can be. Essentially what your dealing with is that though any given Slapshot might be travelling at the same speed, lets say 100mph, some players put a spin on the puck which makes it rotate like for example the bit on a drill. It carries more impact, more weight & heft. Can knock you right off your feet, rip the trapper from your hand if you catch one like that, bruising the body even through chest, shoulder, arm pads. The spin, which is what Al MacInnis and a lot of others cottoned on to at an early age & practised, is achieved by a combination of subtle techniques as explained in this article....

www.eqjournal.org/?p=2791

This is nonsense. Absolutely, emphatically, nonsense. Even if it were sensible to simply add angular and linear momentum (which it is not because they are not the same quantity, it's like trying to add up meters and liters, it makes no physical sense), from a force balance perspective the spinning puck will add nothing to the force of the impact, because in classical mechanics impact force is defined rigorously as the integral of linear momentum only. Sorry for belaboring this but I have seen too many people spreading this nonsense about hard shots vs heavy shots and it makes the community look ignorant.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This is nonsense. Absolutely, emphatically, nonsense. Even if it were sensible to simply add angular and linear momentum (which it is not because they are not the same quantity, it's like trying to add up meters and liters, it makes no physical sense), from a force balance perspective the spinning puck will add nothing to the force of the impact, because in classical mechanics impact force is defined rigorously as the integral of linear momentum only. Sorry for belaboring this but I have seen too many people spreading this nonsense about hard shots vs heavy shots and it makes the community look ignorant.

Try playing goal sometime.

You are blabbing about physics and numbers and he is talking about how a shot feels.

 

[Pominville Knows]

No I'm saying that Bolt's half-way split is a faster pace than what football players are alleged to have ran in a 40 yard dash once one accounts for the roughly 0.2-0.25 second "bonus" the football players get from having stopwatches involved rather than FAT, and the same is true of many other sprinters.

What ever has a 50 metres split minus the reaction time to do with anything? Show me Bolts fastest 40-yard stretch no reaction time counts. But as i said, perhaps Bolt is an outlier here. Obviously i do take those 40-yard times seriously though, not like you, thinking that they are something purely for the emagination.

 

[Killion]

This is nonsense. Absolutely, emphatically, nonsense.

... Fine. Then explain it. Lets hear your theory. As BraveCanadian says, thats how it feels, appeared to me. Spinning puck, angulation, how the pucks hit, a lot of factors involved.

 

[mbhhofr]

... Fine. Then explain it. Lets hear your theory. As BraveCanadian says, thats how it feels, appeared to me. Spinning puck, angulation, how the pucks hit, a lot of factors involved.

I get a kick out of some guys trying to analyze a shot. Hell, let them get in goal and stop a puck. A puck can come at you from different players at the same rate of speed and each shot will feel different.

As far a guys running against a clock, in my experience, you're always faster if someone is chasing you, after the adrenaline kicks in.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Priceless

I get a kick out of some guys trying to analyze a shot. Hell, let them get in goal and stop a puck. A puck can come at you from different players at the same rate of speed and each shot will feel different.

As far a guys running against a clock, in my experience, you're always faster if someone is chasing you, after the adrenaline kicks in.

Priceless. An experience shared by kids playing ball in areas with windows.

 

[Epsilon]

What ever has a 50 metres split minus the reaction time to do with anything? Show me Bolts fastest 40-yard stretch no reaction time counts. But as i said, perhaps Bolt is an outlier here. Obviously i do take those 40-yard times seriously though, not like you, thinking that they are something purely for the emagination.

Then you are deluding yourself. The NFL experimented with Fully Automatic Time (aka the system that is used to time runners in track & field, which is the most accurate timing system in existence for running), and the times were not released officially because they were worried it would embarrass the players to have their actual speeds come out, rather than the fictitiously fast hand-timed speeds. Read the article from Heismanpundit I posted earlier and the accompanying links.

 

[Killion]

I get a kick out of some guys trying to analyze a shot. Hell, let them get in goal and stop a puck. A puck can come at you from different players at the same rate of speed and each shot will feel different....As far a guys running against a clock, in my experience, you're always faster if someone is chasing you, after the adrenaline kicks in.

Indeed. Then theres the "Puck Theory", which as a former professional Referee I'm sure your familiar with.... Inglasco had for years been the official puck supplier to the NHL, not sure but quite likely the WHA, Major Junior in Canada up until the early 80's when Czech, Chinese & other inferior & inconsistent products flooded the market. You had weight differentials, slight size differentials in some cases, in others, heavier practice pucks used either deliberately or by mistake in game situations. Maybe back in the 60's Bobby Hull there & his brother Dennis were deviously switching up pucks when you guys, the Ref's werent lookin? Extra heavy & just slightly oversized vulcanized rubber puck with the edges filed down a bit so it'd stand to attention or do whatever you wanted it to do, more like a tennis ball than a puck. And heavy. Weigh them. Select the heaviest ones you can find. Heavy puck, heavy shot. Interesting conspiracy theory. Punch Imlach, Rudy Pilous, Tommy Ivan; switching pucks on the Ref's. You ever notice anything "funny" mbh?.

Priceless. An experience shared by kids playing ball in areas with windows.

Indeed. Thoroughbreds "run scared". Its why their so fast. Youd think an animal that big & powerful wouldnt fear much but timid they be.

 

[Hanji]

I get a kick out of some guys trying to analyze a shot. Hell, let them get in goal and stop a puck. A puck can come at you from different players at the same rate of speed and each shot will feel different.

As far a guys running against a clock, in my experience, you're always faster if someone is chasing you, after the adrenaline kicks in.

This gets to the gist of the problem. Subscribers to the 'heavy shot' theory are describing a feeling, it's not something concrete.
In addition, I don' think such a feeling has ever been universally agreed upon. I strongly doubt every goaltender who ever faced Al MacInnis thought he had a 'heavy' shot.

In many ways it's similar to somebody claiming "I feel God! It's 100% real. Prove what I'm feeling isn't God!".

Imho, the reason is psychological and/or perceptive more so than actual shot speed or heavyness. I believe poster bewbies described it perfectly earlier in this thread.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

I get a kick out of some guys trying to analyze a shot. Hell, let them get in goal and stop a puck. A puck can come at you from different players at the same rate of speed and each shot will feel different.

As far a guys running against a clock, in my experience, you're always faster if someone is chasing you, after the adrenaline kicks in.

Precisely. If they had measured Hull's shot in a game with Eddie Shack on his heels, it would probably been more like 125 mph.

 

[Killion]

This gets to the gist of the problem. Subscribers to the 'heavy shot' theory are describing a feeling, it's not something concrete. In addition, I don' think such a feeling has ever been universally agreed upon. I strongly doubt every goaltender who ever faced Al MacInnis thought he had a 'heavy' shot. In many ways it's similar to somebody claiming "I feel God! It's 100% real. Prove what I'm feeling isn't God!". Imho, the reason is psychological and/or perceptive more so than actual shot speed or heavyness. I believe poster bewbies described it perfectly earlier in this thread.

No thats just not the case at all Hanji. Amongst the Union of Goaltenders you'll find consensus & agreement that some players do indeed have a "heavy shot". Hard & heavy. Not every shot a guy like MacInnis shoots is heavy, might not get enough mustard on it every now & again, varying speeds when he's shooting it, sometimes not a lot of release time, but no, believe me, big difference. Certainly its subjective as its happening to you, you feel it, but objectively in the range of players, the types one faces, some clearly standout with that heavy shot.... and you know? Some say God lives inside each & every one of us. If thats true then I sure hope he like Enchiladas, cuz thats what he gettin for dinner tonight.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Physics of Hockey

The following website offers interesting reads about the physics of hockey:

https://sites.google.com/site/physicsofhockey1/spring-constants-for-hockey-sticks

 

[Killion]

The following website offers interesting reads about the physics of hockey:

Interesting. Hookes Law, elasticity.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Funny how this degenerated into a "Chara-is-a-modern-scientifically-created-bionic-superman-so-he-has-the-harder-shot" thread

 

[BudMovin*]

Funny how this degenerated into a "Chara-is-a-modern-scientifically-created-bionic-superman-so-he-has-the-harder-shot" thread

More like, I doubt Hull can shoot 12mph faster than Chara (You know, the guy with the fastest shot right now), but yes please think that....96mph backhand and 105mph wrister to go with that 120mph slapshot...Looks like numbers only a "scientifically-created-bionic-superman" could hit.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

More like, I doubt Hull can shoot 12mph faster than Chara (You know, the guy with the fastest shot right now), but yes please think that....96mph backhand and 105mph wrister to go with that 120mph slapshot...Looks like numbers only a "scientifically-created-bionic-superman" could hit.

You assume much. Maybe just maybe pitching hay unscientifically on a farm gives you a better slapper than "sports science"

 

[BudMovin*]

You assume much. Maybe just maybe pitching hay unscientifically on a farm gives you a better slapper than "sports science"

If it made that much of a difference, I'm sure everyone would be doing it. You would read about everyone's off-season workouts have squats and pitching hay as the main focus.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

If it made that much of a difference, I'm sure everyone would be doing it. You would read about everyone's off-season workouts have squats and pitching hay as the main focus.

Sure, and the off-season workouts everyone currently does makes everyone into Chara

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

If it made that much of a difference, I'm sure everyone would be doing it. You would read about everyone's off-season workouts have squats and pitching hay as the main focus.

And btw, your assumption that if the best today can't do then nobody has ever been able to do it is fallacious. That's the "today's players are bionic supermen" argument.

 

[Killion]

Brad Park once said of Bobby Hull's Slapshot "he could fire a puck through a Car Wash
and it wouldnt get wet.... Dennis Hull on the other hand couldnt hit the Car Wash at all".

 

[BudMovin*]

Sure, and the off-season workouts everyone currently does makes everyone into Chara

What? Not sure what you are saying...Are you even in the right thread?

And btw, your assumption that if the best today can't do then nobody has ever been able to do it is fallacious. That's the "today's players are bionic supermen" argument.

No it's not. This has everything to do with the fact that nobody has even gotten close to a giant statistical outlier that happened 45 years ago. Not today, not a decade ago, not 20 years ago, ect. The whole 120mph number seems very Sidd Finch-ish.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

What? Not sure what you are saying...Are you even in the right thread?

Then read it again and maybe just maybe the light bulb will go off

 

[BudMovin*]

Brad Park once said of Bobby Hull's Slapshot "he could fire a puck through a Car Wash
and it wouldnt get wet.... Dennis Hull on the other hand couldnt hit the Car Wash at all".

Is that supposed to make non-believers suddenly think 120 was feasible? Some guy X amount of years ago was quoted as saying Bobby Hull had a fast shot; therefore, you must believe the numbers...Or something. I'm so confused here. Is anyone going to actually make an argument for him that isn't about pitching hay, wooden sticks were that much better (Hull was quoted as saying he could shoot it even faster if he used the sticks of today), or drop quotes about people stating he had a good shot. Give me some sound reasoning to believe this.